the addiction debate

[lwien]

And then we have the benefits decreasing the risk of cancer, type 2 diabetes, parkinson's, Alzheimer's, stroke, heart disease, etc etc.:
http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/features/coffee-new-health-food#1

LOTS of other studies on the benefits from medical journals that I can post up as well if ya like.

 

[grokit]

From the Mayo Clinic:
Drinking caffeine–containing beverages as part of a normal lifestyle doesn't cause fluid loss in excess of the volume ingested. While caffeinated drinks may have a mild diuretic effect — meaning that they may cause the need to urinate — they don't appear to increase the risk of dehydration.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-l...xpert-answers/caffeinated-drinks/faq-20057965

From NPR:
Despite caffeine's many benefits, there's a belief out there that a daily coffee habit can cause dehydration.
So is it true? Not according to the findings of a new study.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt...ting-cup-of-joe-may-help-hydration-and-memory

And here stating that coffee can actually improve hydration which is also mentioned in the study above:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/497932-the-effects-of-coffee-on-hydration-levels/

"The scientists also found that a higher dose of caffeine was no more likely to dehydrate a person than smaller doses were."
http://www.livescience.com/55479-does-caffeine-cause-dehydration.html

btw, @grokit, I used to believe that coffee dehydrated you as well and as a runner, especially at my age, dehydration is a major concern but all of the recent studies show otherwise and that a cup of coffee can actually provide as much hydration as a cup of water which is great news 'cause I LOVE mah coffee.

That's great that it doesn't dehydrate you. But all diuretics will have an effect on urination, and they will also keep you from absorbing water-soluble nutrients. For example...

Take vitamin c with a cup of joe, and and your pee will be bright yellow from the prompt elimination of it.

It's also interesting to me that coffee, as an alkaline substance, makes one's body more acidic when they drink it, while drinking acidic orange juice will actually alkalize the human body.

I am a huge proponent of organic coffee's health benefits; it is a potent anti-oxidant and great for focus.

But (edit) think about that dichotomy for a moment; an acidic environment is conducive to oxidation.

It's almost like coffee self-protects the individual drinking it from its most destructive qualities, much like smoking cannabis has been shown to self-protect one from getting lung cancer.

But you didn't answer the question I asked you, about the caffeine gene!

 

[lwien]

You didn't answer my question about the caffeine gene...

Didn't answer 'cause I really don't know much about it. Guess I should have said that earlier, but I think I heard something about some people being more sensitive to caffeine than others but that's true for just about anything eh.

All of our body chemistries and genetic makeups are a little different from one another and how we react to things, be it coffee, pot, drugs, foods, etc, are not all the same. The whole idea of genetic targeted therapies in medicine is going to make our current medical modalities ancient by comparison, eh?

That's great that it doesn't dehydrate you. But all diuretics will have an effect on urination, and they will also keep you from absorbing water soluble nutrients.
Take vitamin c with a cup of joe, and and your pee will be bright yellow from prompt elimination.

I guess the question is, how much of an affect will it have on the absorption of soluble nutrients.

From everything that I have read, @grokit, it seems that the benefits of coffee consumption FAR outweigh any of the negatives.

 

[invertedisdead]

I notice immediate dehydration when I drink coffee. I don't like that feeling, so I rarely indulge.

 

[lwien]

I notice immediate dehydration when I drink coffee.

According to the studies above, coffee does not cause dehydration but can actually increase hydration. The feelings that you have after coffee consumption may be due to something else other than dehydration.

When you say that you notice immediate dehydration, what is it actually that you notice?

 

[grokit]

diuretic;
Coffee is in the xanthines class, which, "inhibits re-absorption of [sodium] & increases [kidney] filtration

caffeine gene;
Coffee has a greater effect on people who metabolize caffeine more slowly. The reason for this is that our genetic makeup, which determines the activity of the enzyme CYP1A2, is important for the metabolism of caffeine. The aforementioned enzyme doesn’t work adequately in some people, so the daily dose of coffee has to be adapted to this deficiency.

Researchers have shown through several studies that people who metabolize caffeine more slowly, when ingesting large quantities of coffee, are much more susceptible to complications associated with high blood pressure and have an increased risk of heart attack. Given the results of previous research, slow caffeine metabolizers should not drink more than one cup of coffee a day.

 

[lwien]

Thanks for bringing that up, @grokit. I just did a bit of research and found a VERY interesting read:
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/for-coffee-drinkers-the-buzz-may-be-in-your-genes/?_r=0

What was interesting about that is that it showed that slow metabolizers had an increase in heart attack risks with coffee consumption, but the high metabolizers had the exact opposite affect being that coffee consumption served as a protectorate and actually decreased their risk of a heart attack.

So now the questions are, how do you find out if you are a high metabolizer or a low metabolizer? Also, are slow metabolizers, or for that matter, high metabolizers in the minority and if so, how small is that minority? .

Fuck it. I'm on my second cup and enjoying every drop.

I was raised on this stuff. My mom would serve up coffee to the whole family every morning from the time that I was 10 years old. So I've been consuming coffee now for over 60 years but my consumption is down to 2 to 3 cups a day from the times where I was consuming about 8 cups a day. What's even more shocking was that when I was consuming that much coffee, I was also putting in 3 heaping teaspoons of sugar per cup. Now THAT'S scary. Sugar is NOT good for you. Now I drink it black.

 

[grokit]

So now the questions are, how do you find out if you are a high metabolizer or a low metabolizer? Also, are slow metabolizers, or for that matter, high metabolizers in the minority and if so, how small is that minority? .

Fuck it. I'm on my second cup and enjoying every drop.

It's a genetic test, as I mentioned it's about a 50-50% split last I read. Of course it's an "elective" test, and probably not cheap or easy to find, but genetic science in general is evolving rapidly.

The question for me is, does a "cup or two" equal 12 fluid ounces? Or is it a mug or two, which could easily be more like twice that amount. For those with the slower metabolism.

Me too though...
I'm not only brewing my second mug, but I also have a chocolate croissant warming in the toaster oven.

It's Christmas after all

We have to choose our poisons carefully these days!

 

[lwien]

We have to choose our poisons carefully these days!

Yup. See for me, that chocolate croissant would be my poison. I try really hard to stay away from stuff like that. Fucking ice-cream though. That is my drug of choice that I do battle with myself about once or twice a week. Literally, I go into a mental battle............I want some..........no, don't. But I really, really want some............don't do it you dumbass.........etc etc. Sometimes I win..........sometimes I lose. Classic sign of ice cream addiction with denial being the only component that's missing.

 

[grokit]

Yup. See for me, that chocolate croissant would be my poison. I try really hard to stay away from stuff like that. Fucking ice-cream though. That is my drug of choice that I do battle with myself about once or twice a week. Literally, I go into a mental battle............I want some..........no, don't. But I really, really want some............don't do it you dumbass.........etc etc. Sometimes I win..........sometimes I lose. Classic sign of ice cream addiction with denial being the only component that's missing.

I also have a sweet tooth, and as you know I love ice cream as well. You're right, ice cream is a double-whammy because the fat content combined with the sugar is very hard on the liver. But the cheap stuff is even worse, with its chemical stabilizers and rbt dairy and hfcs, which is very hard on the pancreas.

edit: In fact most blame steve job's pancreatic cancer on his fruitarian diet, but it was also his love of ice cream that led to his ill-advised liver transplant, which is what prevented him from healing the cancer.

 

[lwien]

You're right, ice cream is a double-whammy because the fat content combined with the sugar is very hard on the liver.

But at least it's high in protein. lol..........(how's that for an addicts rationale..)

 

[grokit]

(how's that for an addicts rationale..)

...you brought it right back to this thread's topic, nice job

 

[Baron23]

I was raised on this stuff. My mom would serve up coffee to the whole family every morning from the time that I was 10 years old. So I've been consuming coffee now for over 60 years but my consumption is down to 2 to 3 cups a day from the times where I was consuming about 8 cups a day. What's even more shocking was that when I was consuming that much coffee, I was also putting in 3 heaping teaspoons of sugar per cup. Now THAT'S scary. Sugar is NOT good for you. Now I drink it black.

haha....so was I. My grandparents on my Mom's side were immigrants from Salonika, which was actually in Turkey at the time. So, I was raised on Turkish coffee (THIS is the REAL deal LOL). For the adults, it was boiled in water and poured into small espresso type cups (demitasse) and for the kids (and I mean kids....like 6 y.o.) it was boiled in milk.

And now, after drinking this stuff early in life, I sit here at 64 and wonder where all of the hyperactivity came from! haha

Like yourself, when younger I would drink coffee all day long. Drink a cup at night and go to bed right after. Now, I drink generally one 16 oz mug in the morning and that's that. If I drink more, now that I have a very low tolerance, I get jittery and if drank late in the day it will definitely keep me up.

I love my java but try to keep it in its place.

Cheer

 

[rozroz]

you "sweet tooth" guys should definitely take industrial sugar out of your system,
as much as possible.
after a while you'll be amazed by your body's reaction.
no more mid day tiredness, and many other little prizes

 

[lwien]

you "sweet tooth" guys should definitely take industrial sugar out of your system,
as much as possible.
after a while you'll be amazed by your body's reaction.
no more mid day tiredness, and many other little prizes

The ONLY industrial sugar that I put into my system is 3/4 of a pint of ice cream that I ingest about once every three weeks including some in the sauces and salad dressings that I use. I've cut out cookies, pies, cakes, doughnuts, candy, etc etc totally out of my diet going on about 10 years now.

There will, no doubt though, come a time in my life when I say, "Life's too short to not enjoy EVERYTHING that it has to offer including the sweet stuff" but at 72 in good health (knock on wood), I'm not quite there yet.

 

[rozroz]

The ONLY industrial sugar that I put into my system is 3/4 of a pint of ice cream that I ingest about once every three weeks including some in the sauces and salad dressings that I use. I've cut out cookies, pies, cakes, doughnuts, candy, etc etc totally out of my diet going on about 10 years now.

There will, no doubt though, come a time in my life when I say, "Life's too short to not enjoy EVERYTHING that it has to offer including the sweet stuff" but at 72 in good health (knock on wood), I'm not quite there yet.

impressive!

 

[Enchantre]

Coffee is NOT what will take this granny out.

So, we've gotten ground cacao to put in the filter basket with the coffee, and that lends a lovely deepness to the coffee, plus you get some of those lovely antioxidants from the cacao, too. You can find brewing chocolate everywhere now, it is sugar free. You can do exactly the same by grinding your own cacao beans, or by buying unsweetened raw cocoa and putting a tablespoon UNDER the coffee grounds before brewing.

So, my employment locale is using "addiction" rules to ban me from medicating at work. Even my manager disagrees, as I've never had an "incident", and he is perfectly aware of the bennies of my medication, and of me being able to medicate at work.

*sigh* One just has to laugh, right.

 

[invertedisdead]

According to the studies above, coffee does not cause dehydration but can actually increase hydration. The feelings that you have after coffee consumption may be due to something else other than dehydration.

When you say that you notice immediate dehydration, what is it actually that you notice?

I feel an intense need for water, like I've been in the desert all day and haven't drank a drop in two days. similar to that feeling after eating a pizza loaded with salt, that dying for water feeling. I've done some pretty extensive fasting including water fasting, dry fasting, and many health experiments on my body so I feel pretty confident when I say it dehydrates me. It's a feeling I really dislike. Not to the point I'm gonna pass out, as I can't drink more than a 8 oz cup of it, so I doubt it's clinical dehydration, but an overwhelming thirst for water that suggests my body doesn't like it.

 

[grokit]

It's customary in europe to drink their coffee with water on the side, but they also typically brew it stronger than we do. Now we have imported their stronger brewing techniques, but not their hydration habits.

edit: I try avoid crap but when I do eat it, I try to find junk food made with organic sugar and flour; that way the glyphosate load is considerably less because of how glyphosate is used in the harvesting of these two crops. I used to eat just ice cream like @lwien, but I needed to reduce the fat load on my liver. I noticed that while sugar is a catalyst for many issues, it's the glyphosate that's the trigger so organic ice cream.

Newman's cookies are still made with organic sugar and flour for the reasons I have just spelled out.

 

[lwien]

I feel an intense need for water, like I've been in the desert all day and haven't drank a drop in two days. similar to that feeling after eating a pizza loaded with salt, that dying for water feeling. I've done some pretty extensive fasting including water fasting, dry fasting, and many health experiments on my body so I feel pretty confident when I say it dehydrates me.

But again, much like your thirst after eating something salty like pizza, your thirst may not have anything to do with dehydration.

 

[Tranquility]

The coffee drinkers out there better beware of my now legal state as YOU may be the ones cops look to to make up for the loss of easy pot busts.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/12/2...r-test-results-only-show-traces-caffeine.html

A California man is reportedly prepared to fight a misdemeanor charge of driving under the influence after he was pulled over in 2015 and a blood test only showed traces of caffeine in his system.

According to The Guardian, Joseph Schwab was allegedly driving erratically and cut off an officer from the California department of alcoholic beverage control in August 2015 in Solano Country.

Schwab’s attorney Stacey Barrett told the paper that he was given a breathalyzer test which showed that his blood-alcohol content level was at zero percent. A toxicology test also came back negative for drugs. Schwab was booked into county jail.​

 

[Vaked420]

I microdose my coffee haha. But actually it has the same effect for me. Even 1 cup a day will have me feeling more lethargic throughout the day, upset my stomach and overall just seems like something I don't need in my daily routine. That being said though, I absolutely love a well made cappuccino or a small amount of some good drip/french press. My girlfriend is into artisan coffee here in Seattle so I'm always trying new blends, new espressos etc. and to me it's a world as varied as vaping, with different tools and different blends all unique in their flavors.

As for dehydration, if you are already a hydrated person, you can drink the water to replace a certain amount of diuretic. Same with alcohol. 1-3 drinks and I can replace the water in my system. But a point is hit where your body can't consume water at the rate that the diuretic makes you lose it, which I think for coffee happens after about 2 cups, obviously depending on many many more factors to find the real amount, but that's my ballpark for most people and most coffee. But the real problem is most people are constantly dehydrated already and coffee worsens their problem. I try to drink water all through the day and I'm still usually dehydrated so I try and avoid things that make it harder to get my daily dose of water haha.

Also along with all other benefits, micro dosing coffee means that when I want to I can get riggidy riggidy wrecked son! Low-dose stimulants ftw!

Also we should either drift the convo back to talking about weed addiction, addiction in general or create a new thread about coffee. Or all of the above lol

 

[invertedisdead]

People are dehydrated because they are addicted to salt, the most addictive substance in the world in my opinion. And no, sodium chloride is NOT the sodium our bodies need. Just as carbon is not carbon dioxide.

 

[Baron23]

The coffee drinkers out there better beware of my now legal state as YOU may be the ones cops look to to make up for the loss of easy pot busts.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/12/2...r-test-results-only-show-traces-caffeine.html

A California man is reportedly prepared to fight a misdemeanor charge of driving under the influence after he was pulled over in 2015 and a blood test only showed traces of caffeine in his system.

According to The Guardian, Joseph Schwab was allegedly driving erratically and cut off an officer from the California department of alcoholic beverage control in August 2015 in Solano Country.

Schwab’s attorney Stacey Barrett told the paper that he was given a breathalyzer test which showed that his blood-alcohol content level was at zero percent. A toxicology test also came back negative for drugs. Schwab was booked into county jail.​

Only in CA...sigh.

 

[rozroz]

People are dehydrated because they are addicted to salt, the most addictive substance in the world in my opinion. And no, sodium chloride is NOT the sodium our bodies need. Just as carbon is not carbon dioxide.

Truth