the addiction debate

[Vaked420]

I guess I'll just keep posting this:

Habituation does NOT equal addiction.

Its that simple to me and is based on my personal 50 year relationship with cannabis (with usage peaks and valleys over my life) and of those I know. That is, first hand experience.

Of course in today's society, a large portion of which needs to be a victim at all times, it MUST be addiction because otherwise we would have to be personally responsible for our habits. Just saying.

Carry on.

At this point I think it just comes down to definitions. Habituation does not equal addiction, but I see addiction as just a very negative case of habituation. So habituation is not addiction, but I believe addiction is a form of habituation.

I do agree tho, people use terms like addiction to offload the blame of the problem and that is not OK and is often what leads people into the cycle of addiction in the first place. It's not my control, I can't stop it because it's addiction and it's stronger than me.

And for the record I think that there are plenty of people who over all cannabis has a negative influence on their life. They may not be common, but at the same time unless someone is pulling up a scientific study one way or the other I feel like this becomes a question in life that just doesn't have a solid answer yet. I think we just aren't at the level of psychology research and cannabis research to have a definitive answer on this or a true understanding of the inter workings of the mind at this level

 

[Striped121]

I can honestly say I've been addicted to weed all my adult life (42). Only time I ever tried to quit was 2 years ago for 3 months and it nearly killed me. Headaches.... Sweats... Night terrors resulting in sleep paralysis (that's a whole other forum ) and not knowing if I'm awake or not, like waking up 3 times in the space of 5 minutes and not knowing if I really am awake and repeating the same moves everytime I woke up ( totally lucid ). Then spending the first 3 hours of the day after that shit all night with the biggest knot in my stomach I've ever experienced, sometimes making me hunch over with pain. Got better after about 10 weeks of pure hell, but then I just really missed it. Decided to never be so stupid as to try and quit again....

THC TILL I RIP

When I read posts that say " I went on holiday and didn't need weed so I'm not addicted i" t makes me smile. Try telling yourself you are never going to smoke another joint again for the rest of your life and mean it . That is the only way you will find out if you are addicted it not. A break is not the same as a divorce

 

[invertedisdead]

I sure could use a dab right about now.

 

[herbivore21]

I can honestly say I've been addicted to weed all my adult life (42). Only time I ever tried to quit was 2 years ago for 3 months and it nearly killed me. Headaches.... Sweats... Night terrors resulting in sleep paralysis (that's a whole other forum ) and not knowing if I'm awake or not, like waking up 3 times in the space of 5 minutes and not knowing if I really am awake and repeating the same moves everytime I woke up ( totally lucid ). Then spending the first 3 hours of the day after that shit all night with the biggest knot in my stomach I've ever experienced, sometimes making me hunch over with pain. Got better after about 10 weeks of pure hell, but then I just really missed it. Decided to never be so stupid as to try and quit again....

THC TILL I RIP

When I read posts that say " I went on holiday and didn't need weed so I'm not addicted i" t makes me smile. Try telling yourself you are never going to smoke another joint again for the rest of your life and mean it . That is the only way you will find out if you are addicted it not. A break is not the same as a divorce

The headaches and sweats are not unusual after cessation of cannabis use, also bad dreams are not unusual - not necessarily night terrors though (also you can get headaches and sweats from cessation of drinking your daily coffee btw).

Hunching over in stomach pain and ongoing gut disturbance for a prolonged period though? If you get that when you stop using cannabis, you need to see a doctor man. It is possible that your cannabis use has been masking some kind of gastrointestinal disorder etc (your digestive tract has plenty CB2 receptors which regulate anti-inflammatory behaviors in this region among other functions and are helpfully activated by THC and moreso by CBD and other cannabinoids/terps like beta caryophyllene). It is important to get that shit looked into (no pun intended!!!).

Regardless of how much of a clusterfuck of contradictory, mostly non-medically informed views this thread has become; I am sure most will agree here that serious debilitating stomach pain like you describe is not a common symptom of cessation of cannabis use, no matter how much one uses!

I would definitely see a doctor without delay if that happened to me, I wish you all the best man! That sounds like it was awful!

 

[Vaked420]

The headaches and sweats are not unusual after cessation of cannabis use, also bad dreams are not unusual - not necessarily night terrors though (also you can get headaches and sweats from cessation of drinking your daily coffee btw).

Hunching over in stomach pain and ongoing gut disturbance for a prolonged period though? If you get that when you stop using cannabis, you need to see a doctor man. It is possible that your cannabis use has been masking some kind of gastrointestinal disorder etc (your digestive tract has plenty CB2 receptors which regulate anti-inflammatory behaviors in this region among other functions and are helpfully activated by THC and moreso by CBD and other cannabinoids/terps like beta caryophyllene). It is important to get that shit looked into (no pun intended!!!).

Regardless of how much of a clusterfuck of contradictory, mostly non-medically informed views this thread has become; I am sure most will agree here that serious debilitating stomach pain like you describe is not a common symptom of cessation of cannabis use, no matter how much one uses!

I would definitely see a doctor without delay if that happened to me, I wish you all the best man! That sounds like it was awful!

I definitely agree he should check that out, but I also think most people should check out lots more stuff in general.

I've found before, especially if I'm smoking before eating regularly that my diet can get really screwed and that can lead to a lot of stomach pains when changing my weed intake up or down. Combine that with general grumpiness from not vaping, I can see it haha.

 

[Striped121]

It's pretty common man if you Google it. I've always swore that cannabis has a physical addiction. I was smoking 2-3 grams a day for over 27 years without a break. The pains stopped after about 5 weeks but I know they were 100℅ a result from quitting bud. Many old ex smokers I know have confirmed this ( also night terrors are usually referenced as Freddie's round here as it's a common withdrawal symptom ). I guess it's just down to how heavy a user you've been for a very long period of your life.

 

[biohacker]

I guess it's just down to how heavy a user you've been for a very long period of your life.

Bingo...join the club... https://www.cannabisrehab.org/forum...ow-long-do-marijuana-withdrawal-symptoms-last

Some prevail and never go back, and some can't (myself included), but I do like to take T-breaks from time to time as much as I can tolerate, but I understand the hell on earth, trust me...look up some of my past posts on the topic.

@herbivore21 Is Cannabis Use Disorder not in the DSM anymore? I'm quite certain that Cannabis Withdrawal Syndrome still is?

Quitting caffeine/coffee was a fucking nightmare for me too... both drugs cause serious withdrawal effects for me, but I have underlying serious mental health issues (bipolar, adhd, ocd, anxiety). Then again, if you look at the bipolar thread I went on a t-break for a while and then declared I was healed and felt better than ever in my life. Still wanna get there again, but the timing just isn't right at the moment. For me to abstain, I either need to be hospitalized or locked in my home with enough healthy food and drink to "weather the storm". After a month, it's way better, after 2 it's 95% there for me. Some never recover and have PAWS for years. It can be hellish.

Edit: Dug up my quote from over 2 years ago....just my experience and 2cents! I am very addicted to weed physically and mentally. In fact, due to my abuse over the past decade, I feel that I have some permanent changes in my brain. It's much better with vaping, as in my combustion days it actually affected my speech...that never has happened since the switch to vaping.

I was convinced that I had some form of bipolar/mood/anxiety disorder, by a psychiatrist back in the summer, and subsequently convinced myself that vaping regularily helped me live a normal life without the mental anguish. I went through some pretty shitty times, which caused me a bunch of time off of work. My GP gave me the blessing of using weed on a regular basis to keep the cannabinoid levels high in my system, so after a two week break, and shitty withdrawal symptoms (and the resulting lack of sleep) I started micro dosing every few hours which made me feel great. This only lasted for so long until the negative effects started to creep up, destroying my sleep quality and health. I've now abstained completely for a month, and feel like a completely different human. My sleep is incredible, lots of REM rebound and dreaming, and wake up feeling so refreshed and happy every day now. I'm much more productive and have absolutely no signs of mood/anxiety disorder and have made some great accomplishments in both my personal and work life. I'll always vape and enjoy the hobby, just not several times per day or week like before. Just wanted to offer a different perspective and this is just my experience only.

 

[Striped121]

It's much better with vaping

Yes same here. I feel like switching to vaping has honestly changed my life and will continue to do so, physically, financialy and something I never bargained for which is the best bonus ever..... Mentally! My thoughts are much clearer since the big switch and I even believe I could come off weed easier with vaping rather than the hell of trying from smoking.

 

[biohacker]

Good luck man, vaping gets alot more cannabinoids to your receptors than smoking...and withdrawal with vaping isn't easier IMO, but may even be harder. Only one way to find out, abstain for 2 weeks and see what happens.

 

[ZC]

I don't find any withdrawal symptoms when I stop vaping. From time to time I take anywhere from 2 weeks to 2 months off. No withrawals, no problems.

Cannabis is my medication for anxiety and insomnia so without it I get a little less sleep, but that's pretty much it. No signs of addiction.

 

[grokit]

Coffee is interesting as to physical tolerance & withdrawal symptoms. Abstain totally from caffeine for a week and you're back at square one, but in my experience have plenty of aspirin handy, especially around days three through five. When you start drinking it again, your tolerance doubles daily; so by day five, it takes 16 cups to give you the same effect as one cup gave you on day one. Of course weed helps ...

 

[biohacker]

You're lucky if you only suffer for the week! Some it takes much longer. And apparently some people will never feel quite as good as when they drank coffee. I LOVE coffee, yet abstain due to the negative impact it has on my sleep quality, as well as mineral depletion (literally made my wife anemic).

 

[grokit]

Here's the top "caffeine withdrawal duration" statement from the world of google:

Symptoms normally start within 12 to 24 hours but can take up to 36 hours. Withdrawal symptoms usually peak between 20 and 48 hours. The worst side effects should generally be over within 2 days to 1 week, although sometimes it can take up to 12 days. (15)

My experience is the only time it takes longer than a week is if I try to "ease out" rather than abstaining "cold turkey". This will ease withdrawal symptoms, but it also prolongs them so pick your poison.

 

[lwien]

I'm nevah going to give up my coffee. Nevah, I tell ya. NEVAH !!!!

 

[grokit]

edit: I suppose my point is that it's relatively easy to hit the reset button on caffeine compared to many other "physical addictions"; symptoms are mainly just headaches that are limited to a few days.

For me I can handle a cup or two of organic black coffee, it's even healthy in many respects.

However, non-organic coffee beans carry a high toxic load.

The caffeine gene plays a huge role in how an individual reacts to it.

It's the damn biscotti/croissant/doughnut accompaniment that gets to me

 

[ZC]

I went from drinking at least one 36oz rockstar a day to 0 caffiene. Worst headaches I've had in my life for a week straight.

 

[lwien]

it's even healthy in many respects.

Man, I can cite many, many studies from very well established medical sources that extoll the virtues of coffee consumption. For healthy individuals, it seems that the risk/reward scale tips heavily into the reward spectrum.

 

[invertedisdead]

Not really a fan of caffeine myself. I much prefer the theobromine from a quality cacao. Cacao is a mild entheogen that pairs great with cannabis... creates a very soothing euphoria to me. Anandamide is a cannabinoid neurotransmitter found in chocolate that creates this blissful feeling. An organic single origin bar with minimal sweetening would be my preference. Look up ceremonial cacao, a different strain of cacao than what we commonly enjoy with more intense psychoactive properties. Used by shamans for a long, long time as a drink. Although most of us enjoy bars, it's too hot and humid where cacao grows. The Mayans drank it with chili powders, the capsaicin stimulates blood flow and the absorption of the cacao. It is believed theobromine increases absorption of THC, CBD, and other cannabinoids.

 

[biohacker]

Here's the top "caffeine withdrawal duration" statement from the world of google:

Symptoms normally start within 12 to 24 hours but can take up to 36 hours. Withdrawal symptoms usually peak between 20 and 48 hours. The worst side effects should generally be over within 2 days to 1 week, although sometimes it can take up to 12 days. (15)

Everyone is different, just like cannabis withdrawal symptoms....some have none, some are over it in 2 weeks, some 2 years, and some are never the same.

Just in case people who quit are wondering why they still feel like shit after a week or two:

http://www.menprovement.com/benefits-of-being-caffeine-free/

Not really a fan of caffeine myself. I much prefer the theobromine from a quality cacao. Cacao is a mild entheogen that pairs great with cannabis... creates a very soothing euphoria to me. Anandamide is a cannabinoid neurotransmitter found in chocolate that creates this blissful feeling. An organic single origin bar with minimal sweetening would be my preference. Look up ceremonial cacao, a different strain of cacao than what we commonly enjoy with more intense psychoactive properties. Used by shamans for a long, long time as a drink. Although most of us enjoy bars, it's too hot and humid where cacao grows. The Mayans drank it with chili powders, the capsaicin stimulates blood flow and the absorption of the cacao. It is believed theobromine increases absorption of THC, CBD, and other cannabinoids.

Great post, I love the theanine in green tea too. Way better than caffeine IMO.

 

[MinnBobber]

....I much prefer the theobromine from a quality cacao. Cacao is a mild entheogen that pairs great with cannabis... creates a very soothing euphoria to me. Anandamide is a cannabinoid neurotransmitter found in chocolate that creates this blissful feeling.....

How do you prefer your cacao, ingested orally or ......snort a big line???

Picture from my trip to Amsterdam, and no, I didn't try snorting it. A nice 72% dark chocolate bar or some of my single origin Chocolates El Rey discos are a real treat.

 

[grokit]

Man, I can cite many, many studies from very well established medical sources that extoll the virtues of coffee consumption. For healthy individuals, it seems that the risk/reward scale tips heavily into the reward spectrum.

Healthy people shouldn't have any negative issues from a cup or two a day. The caffeine gene means half of them can drink much more than that, with respect to the diuretic effects. There's no gray area here.

Cacao is a mild entheogen that pairs great with cannabis...

Is cacao by definition raw? When the nibs are marketed for drinking or cooking it seems that it is.

edit: Nm, it's actually fermented...

"The cocoa bean, also cacao bean or simply cocoa or cacao, is the dried and fully fermented fatty seed of Theobroma cacao, from which cocoa solids and cocoa butter can be extracted."

 

[lwien]

Healthy people shouldn't have any negative issues from a cup or two a day.

Actually, from everything that I have read, the recommended dosage of coffee is 3 to 4 cups a day to derive the health benefits without any undue risk in normally healthy individuals.

 

[grokit]

Actually, from everything that I have read, the recommended dosage of coffee is 3 to 4 cups a day to derive the health benefits without any undue risk in normally healthy individuals.

Agreed that a "normally healthy individual" is more resistant to the negative diuretic effects of coffee, which can dehydrate you, and strip valuable water-soluble nutrients like vitamin c from your body.

What is your interpretation of the effects of the "caffeine gene" that ~half of us seem to have?

Because the other half don't have it.

 

[lwien]

Agreed that a "normally healthy individual" is more resistant to the negative diuretic effects of coffee, which can dehydrate you, and strip valuable water-soluble nutrients like vitamin c from your body.

What is your interpretation of the effects of the "caffeine gene" that ~half of us seem to have?

Because the other half don't have it.

From the Mayo Clinic:
Drinking caffeine–containing beverages as part of a normal lifestyle doesn't cause fluid loss in excess of the volume ingested. While caffeinated drinks may have a mild diuretic effect — meaning that they may cause the need to urinate — they don't appear to increase the risk of dehydration.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-l...xpert-answers/caffeinated-drinks/faq-20057965

From NPR:
Despite caffeine's many benefits, there's a belief out there that a daily coffee habit can cause dehydration.
So is it true? Not according to the findings of a new study.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt...ting-cup-of-joe-may-help-hydration-and-memory

And here stating that coffee can actually improve hydration which is also mentioned in the study above:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/497932-the-effects-of-coffee-on-hydration-levels/

"The scientists also found that a higher dose of caffeine was no more likely to dehydrate a person than smaller doses were."
http://www.livescience.com/55479-does-caffeine-cause-dehydration.html

btw, @grokit, I used to believe that coffee dehydrated you as well and as a runner, especially at my age, dehydration is a major concern but all of the recent studies show otherwise and that a cup of coffee can actually provide as much hydration as a cup of water which is great news 'cause I LOVE mah coffee.

 

[biohacker]

It's not so black and white. There are different variants of this gene and depending on which alleles you receive you may be a slow metabolizer of the drug, fast, or normal. More people have both the fast and slow copies of the allele than people who just have copies of the fast allele. And apparently only about 15% have two copies of the slow allele.

Whatever you do, just don't drink the coffee (or any drink) too HOT!