The 2016 Presidential Candidates Thread

[CuckFumbustion]

You bring up an interesting question: what differentiates individuals who respond to polls, and does that differentiation have bearing on their inclination for choice? In any case, those inclined to answer polls (e.g., telephone cold call) constitute a very select sample vs the pool at large, I would think...

The phone polls might have changed in signifigance since say the last two elections. Much less how the info is collated. It will be a close race and there is more talk about the Anti-Trump and Anti-Hillary crowds. So all other projections about the middle will be recycled for the months ahead. Both could be embroiled in upcoming cases. If Sanders doesn't flip Super-delegates or if the RNC doesn't dump Trump. It still needs to get real for both parties. IMHO

 

[CarolKing]

I think being a loan wolf in congress is what is also attracting the voter. Folks aren't looking for establishment candidates this time around. The voter wants something different.

I do agree polls probably don't mean anything at this point. It's just scary to see. We have a long time until Nov. The debates are what I'm looking for. We need Trump to look like the fool he is when trying to answer very difficult questions compared to the competency of his opponent.

 

[Snappo]

I'm thinking Trump's taxes will show that he probably didn't pay much compared to the regular folks. That alone probably would blow him out of the water. It would piss off the folks that are nickel and dimed to death by the IRS like small businesses and the middle income tax payer.

Trump has often boasted that he takes pride in paying as little tax as is possible - he's never been shy about that and he has worn it like a badge of honor... his taxes, IMO, will not be a factor one iota...

 

[CuckFumbustion]

I'm thinking Trump's taxes will show that he probably didn't pay much compared to the regular folks. That alone probably would blow him out of the water. It would piss off the folks that are nickel and dimed to death by the IRS like small businesses and the middle income tax payer.

How could he not know his taxes would not be required for the office? At the very least he is under-prepared if this isn't a stunt.That is a huge tell of something fishy.

In summary, the polls taken at this point mean nothing. Do not allow your emotions to go on a roller-coaster ride depending on the latest polling; talking about polls at this point is merely a convenient substitute for journalism on the part of the media.

Seriously, spare yourself this, every angle and skew will be recycled. Look at a weeks worth of polls and compare it to the actual outcome. Case closed.

Pundits, financial forecasters and weathermen are never held to the mat after the fact. They amplify a small bit of info at best. What I refer to as gossip mode. It is used as a form of persuasion until the final ballot.

 

[HellsWindStaff]

I'm thinking Trump's taxes will show that he probably didn't pay much compared to the regular folks. That alone probably would blow him out of the water. It would piss off the folks that are nickel and dimed to death by the IRS like small businesses and the middle income tax payer.

To be fair, no politician pays much compared to the regular folks.

Even Bernie is willing to take the deductions he rallies against to put himself in a lower bracket.

I agree with @Snappo that I don't think the taxes will make a big difference one way or another

I also agree that the "lone wolf" idea is appealing to people this time around, for both Bernie and Trump

 

[Gunky]

I think being a loan wolf in congress is what is also attracting the voter. Folks aren't looking for establishment candidates this time around. The voter wants something different.

-snip

I think you are correct. Which is a pity because loan wolf requires a very different set of skills than leadership. Voters are rejecting politics itself when they should be rejecting certain demonstrably wrong policies, like endlessly lowering taxes on the rich, refusing to raise minimum wage, voter suppression, etc.

I find myself looking forward to the presidential debates. It's going to be fun this time!

 

[cybrguy]

Who would have thought a year ago that Trump would be the republican nominee and be tied with Hillary Clinton in the polls. I haven't taken a poll because I screen my calls. There are many other people that haven't been included in a poll. I wonder how accurate they are?

Polls have limited value this far out, but I wouldn't say they have NO value. Never the less, If polls were good predictors this far out we would have had President Dukakis, President McCain and President Romney, just for examples sake.

Polls, not unlike statistics, can be finagled to suit a desired foregone conclusion, which is why I put zero stock in them. I think the media's constant emphasis on polls has more influence on their direction then the actual candidates.

The best way to manipulate polls is in how the questions are put. Changing word order and emphasis can completely change result. Read the poll questions in any Fox poll for good examples. A huge part of the predictability of polls, and an important area of study for "legitimate" pollsters is how to ask unloaded poll questions. They CAN produce good predictions...

I'm thinking Trump's taxes will show that he probably didn't pay much compared to the regular folks. That alone probably would blow him out of the water. It would piss off the folks that are nickel and dimed to death by the IRS like small businesses and the middle income tax payer.

There is a LOT more to learn from taxes than how much money someone makes. For example, Donald spends a lot of time talking about what a generous guy he is and how much money he donates. Is this true? From what has been discovered SO far, it is NOT. Any time he has been involved with donations he was donating OTHER people money, not his own. Like the Veterans thing he recently did while avoiding a debate. In that case he has apparently lied about nearly EVERY aspect of it, and he refuses to release any info about it. Typical Trump.

Lets not forget the FIRST President who released his taxes was Richard Nixon, in an effort to prove he was "not a crook". For those who may not know that led to him being discovered as a tax cheat, and he had to come up with like $450K more for the IRS.

Virtually every serious candidate since him has shown his taxes. Will we really let the guy this expectation was DESIGNED for to not show his? I think not...

 

[Gunky]

I think it's very possible Trump paid no taxes. It's quite common in large scale real estate development and there are a couple of dodges that allow them to escape all federal taxation. The only time Trump released his returns (in the 70's I think) he paid zero. Now if a presidential candidate who claims to possess 10 billion dollars paid zero last year in taxes, releasing the returns would be more damaging than with-holding them.

 

[CuckFumbustion]

The best way to manipulate polls is in how the questions are put. Changing word order and emphasis can completely change result. Read the poll questions in any Fox poll for good examples. A huge part of the predictability of polls, and an important area of study for "legitimate" pollsters is how to ask unloaded poll questions. They CAN produce good predictions...

Think of Frank Luntz as a fine example of this form of, I believe the correct term is 'turd polishing'.

 

[cybrguy]

Think of Frank Luntz as a fine example of this form of, I believe the correct term is 'turd polishing'.

Ah hahahahahaha. Why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel Penn...

 

[Snappo]

Virtually every serious candidate since him has shown his taxes. Will we really let the guy this expectation was DESIGNED for to not show his? I think not...

I already consider Trump to be a liar, cheat, and cheapskate, so as far as I'm concerned, his taxes and all they may reveal are of no importance or consequence. And the carry-over losses that he uses to his advantage year after year ad infinitum that credit against his tax debt have to be huge, leaving relatively little tax owed.

 

[HellsWindStaff]

Kind of off topic, but also on topic, what's the general consensus about taxes amongst you guys?

Similarly, Why is a static tax not implemented in U.S.? That IMO seems the most "fair". I'm not knowledgeable on the subject wel enough to know why we don't do this or why it wouldn't work if implemented.

I don't think the rich should be taxed exponentially more then the poor. But they shouldn't be able to skirt....is the problem with a "static" tax because the rich will lower their rates through assets?

Just for instance say we all pay 20% taxes. But the rich guy who makes 200k has the luxury of deducting 100k, so he'd only pay 20k rather than 40k? Is that the problem and why a static set tax doesn't work?

If that's the case, IMO we should change how we do deductions then.

Like I said, not familiar really

 

[cybrguy]

I already consider Trump to be a liar, cheat, and cheapskate, so as far as I'm concerned, his taxes and all they may reveal are of no importance or consequence.

You DO know that all of the effort and money being spent isn't all to sway YOUR vote, right? I know sometimes that's how it feels, but...

 

[thisperson]

I think you are correct. Which is a pity because loan wolf requires a very different set of skills than leadership. Voters are rejecting politics itself when they should be rejecting certain demonstrably wrong policies, like endlessly lowering taxes on the rich, refusing to raise minimum wage, voter suppression, etc.

I find myself looking forward to the presidential debates. It's going to be fun this time!

There is something to be said about the lonewolf in a dichotomy. He is just another face or representation for those who are not being represented. As much as I dislike the thought of the tea party gaining power last election, that was a reaction to the population's wants.

I'm not sure what the number is now, but last I'd heard 50 percent of the registered voters were independent. It is as Madison said in Federalist 51. We must break off into sects so as to not concentrate power for any one faction. For if any one side were to gain too much power it would override the will of the minority. In this case we are the majority but the minority (1%) controls our policies. Not sure what Madison had to say on that possibility. I don't think I encountered it at all in .gov class.

So you guys want to start a Marijuana Enthusiasts Party? I already have our platform. We go green and thrive under a hempconomy. Hemp protein bars, hemp cars and fuel, hemp plastics. We also pull co2 out of the air by building with hempcrete. It will be a glorious revolution. lol.

We'll also reduce health hazards by pushing marijuana as an alternative to opiates and hard drugs, even alcohol and tobacco. ^_^

 

[Snappo]

You DO know that all of the effort and money being spent isn't all to sway YOUR vote, right? I know sometimes that's how it feels, but...

I DO know that any money spent by any candidate to sway MY vote is wasted money. That's how I feel, ALWAYS!

 

[Gunky]

The other day Trump said on TV that how much he paid in taxes was 'none of your business!' If somebody is asking us to entrust them with the U.S. nuclear attack codes, they don't get to conceal things like that. He is not running for Postmaster General or Director of Border Wall Construction. We are vetting this person for a big job and will not accept a middle finger for an answer to questions like that, particularly since this candidate has no tangible record in politics and touts his business acumen and negotiating skills as his main selling point.

 

[Silat]

Kind of off topic, but also on topic, what's the general consensus about taxes amongst you guys?

Similarly, Why is a static tax not implemented in U.S.? That IMO seems the most "fair". I'm not knowledgeable on the subject wel enough to know why we don't do this or why it wouldn't work if implemented.

I don't think the rich should be taxed exponentially more then the poor. But they shouldn't be able to skirt....is the problem with a "static" tax because the rich will lower their rates through assets?

Just for instance say we all pay 20% taxes. But the rich guy who makes 200k has the luxury of deducting 100k, so he'd only pay 20k rather than 40k? Is that the problem and why a static set tax doesn't work?

If that's the case, IMO we should change how we do deductions then.

Like I said, not familiar really

It is called the "Fair Tax" and it is anything but fair. Well it is really fair for the rich.
A Google search will get you the info you desire.

 

[CuckFumbustion]

Kind of off topic, but also on topic, what's the general consensus about taxes amongst you guys?

Similarly, Why is a static tax not implemented in U.S.? That IMO seems the most "fair". I'm not knowledgeable on the subject wel enough to know why we don't do this or why it wouldn't work if implemented.

I don't think the rich should be taxed exponentially more then the poor. But they shouldn't be able to skirt....is the problem with a "static" tax because the rich will lower their rates through assets?

Just for instance say we all pay 20% taxes. But the rich guy who makes 200k has the luxury of deducting 100k, so he'd only pay 20k rather than 40k? Is that the problem and why a static set tax doesn't work?

If that's the case, IMO we should change how we do deductions then.

Like I said, not familiar really

Just the long view for what it's worth. We didn't used to have a federal tax until say 1916 and that was on 1%. Now 100 years later we are considering 20%.

Let that sink in for a moment.

Taxes by their very nature make people criminals when enforced. It cost money to enforce said laws. You can have your property and assets seized without a trial. The IRS is one of the more unconstitutional aspects of out government. Tin foil hat aside. A 'fair' tax is only capable with a fiscally responsible gov. Otherwise, its pigs lining up to a trough and more pleading for more tax revenue by those 'other' people we like to demagogue. We could reset the tax system and have say a flat tax, but that would last for a short time before it is determined 'unfair' by some group and altered for a special interest. And so it goes.....

 

[Gunky]

Just the long view for what it's worth. We didn't used to have a federal tax until say 1916 and that was on 1%. Now 100 years later we are considering 20%.

-snip-.

Strictly speaking, that is not correct. We didn't have a federal income tax before about 1812, but there were federal taxes and the power to tax is enumerated in the constitution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States#Early_federal_income_taxes

Taxes by their very nature make people criminals when enforced.

T̶a̶x̶e̶s̶ Laws by their very nature make people criminals when enforced.

 

[CuckFumbustion]

There is something to be said about the lonewolf in a dichotomy. He is just another face or representation for those who are not being represented. As much as I dislike the thought of the tea party gaining power last election, that was a reaction to the population's wants.

I'm not sure what the number is now, but last I'd heard 50 percent of the registered voters were independent. It is as Madison said in Federalist 51. We must break off into sects so as to not concentrate power for any one faction. For if any one side were to gain too much power it would override the will of the minority. In this case we are the majority but the minority (1%) controls our policies. Not sure what Madison had to say on that possibility. I don't think I encountered it at all in .gov class.

So you guys want to start a Marijuana Enthusiasts Party? I already have our platform. We go green and thrive under a hempconomy. Hemp protein bars, hemp cars and fuel, hemp plastics. We also pull co2 out of the air by building with hempcrete. It will be a glorious revolution. lol.

We'll also reduce health hazards by pushing marijuana as an alternative to opiates and hard drugs, even alcohol and tobacco. ^_^

Let us know when you run for office and have an online petition. If you go with biofuel and hemp as part of your platform, then we can generate a groundswell. Before the other two candidates self combust.

Strictly speaking, that is not correct. We didn't have a federal income tax before about 1812, but there were federal taxes and the power to tax is enumerated in the constitution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States#Early_federal_income_taxes

Dug deeper in the wiki and got with that. Further down there was some sort of distinction at some sort of 'birthday' and chart on 1913 to present. As mentioned further down that article.

The theme of tax creep and the other points I was touching upon are there. In short or long form. The IRS came into the picture later as a form of enforcement then of seizure or to that effect.

Refresh my memory or am I wrong, but arn't your taxes made public or at least reviewed when you qualify for office?

 

[CarolKing]

Democrats need to keep needling him. I noticed that Hillary is saying maybe he doesn't have as much money as he says he has. T. Boone Pickens is a Trump supporter and he says that Trump isn't worth 10 billion dollars. It will show that he has a pattern of lieing if he's not worth 10 billion. He gets really pissed too when people question if he's really worth as much as he says. It's a status symbol.

Pure and simple he's not up to the task of being president. He's so thinned skinned I would be worried what he might say when provoked when in office.

This tax payer (Me) would like to see what Trump paid in taxes. We have a small business and we pay quite a bit in fed taxes and state taxes too.

 

[HellsWindStaff]

It is called the "Fair Tax" and it is anything but fair. Well it is really fair for the rich.
A Google search will get you the info you desire.

I promise I'll Google and do some research, but from my POV % is a %, at a fundamental level it should be fair. If I make $10 I put in $2. 100 I put in 20. Etc. so I'm curious to what institutions or policies that are in place that make this not work.

I don't think by nature those that make more money should be taxed more. Just like how there is some leech on the bottom of the economy who is unfairly benefitting and not better their position, there is a family who has fallen on legitimate hard times that can use the help. There are certainly people who goad the system at higher income levels, but I'm certain there are people who are "middle American professionals" who make healthy livings that are unfairly penalized.

Thanks for info guys, @CuckFumbustion i was using 20 just arbitrarily, it's crazy to think that's legitimately what people are going for.

I'll read up on it

 

[CuckFumbustion]

T̶a̶x̶e̶s̶ Laws by their very nature make people criminals when enforced.

How very true. And it is frustrating as to how selective they are enforced. I try to hear everybody on that point. Including those I disagree with.

Then the other situation of bad laws passed out of those said frustrations. And so that goes....

 

[Snappo]

The other day Trump said on TV that how much he paid in taxes was 'none of your business!' If somebody is asking us to entrust them with the U.S. nuclear attack codes, they don't get to conceal things like that. He is not running for Postmaster General or Director of Border Wall Construction. We are vetting this person for a big job and will not accept a middle finger for an answer to questions like that, particularly since this candidate has no tangible record in politics and touts his business acumen and negotiating skills as his main selling point.

I think the size of Trump's hands could be far more telling than anything his tax returns would reveal.

Taxes? How about getting the size of government down to reasonable levels of cost to function efficiently and equitably, and then evaluate what our taxes (bracketed or flat) should be to support it, and on an ongoing basis audit & adjust... with a nationalized consensus of citizen-run local government oversight?

 

[CuckFumbustion]

Thanks for info guys, @CuckFumbustion i was using 20 just arbitrarily, it's crazy to think that's legitimately what people are going for.

It's all good. But, I wish I could comfortably & whole heatedly agree with that. I'm a little cynical there if you couldn't tell. Not sure what the percentage of tax rate is for european countries as a barometer I used to refer to.

Just my side tangent, Then the other 'side of the coin' is the value of the dollar. AKA Inflation. Your buying power of that $15.00 you earned for working that 1 hour.

Good discussion folks!