The 2016 Presidential Candidates Thread

Joel W.

Deplorable Basement Dweller
Accessory Maker
I "like" this as new info but :disgust:, the rabbit hole is starting to seem infinitely deep :whoa:
:horse:
Everything is corrupt where's my check I'll look the other way oh yeah no one cares.

Yes, It seems to me like Hillary was promised the white house in 2012 and everyone in the democratic party and our elected officials are trying to make that happen, whether we want it or not.

Probably some backroom "deal" was hatched. I hear she is good at hatching deals...:disgust:

Less corruption or more opportunity to participate in it!
 

CarolKing

Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
On Tuesday night, during a televised town hall, CNN's Anderson Cooper asked Donald Trump about one of his more provocative comments during a recent foreign policy interview with the New York Times, in which he seemed to suggest he would allow or encourage South Korea or Japan to get nuclear weapons.

Here's what he said:

COOPER: It has been a U.S. policy for decades to prevent Japan from getting a nuclear weapon.

TRUMP: That might be policy, but maybe...

COOPER: South Korea as well.

TRUMP: Can I be honest are you? Maybe it's going to have to be time to change, because so many people, you have Pakistan has it, you have China has it. You have so many other countries are now having it.


There you have it: Trump is suggesting that the US should consider allowing Japan and South Korea develop nuclear weapons.

This fits with Trump's broader worldview, inasmuch as he has one. He believes America is paying too much money to defend its allies around the world — and that they should either pay the US for its trouble or develop their own means of protecting themselves. Nuclear weapons, in Trump's view, would allow Japan and South Korea to deter North Korea and China without the US spending a single cent. Everybody wins!

This, as my colleague Max Fisher explains, profoundly misunderstands the post–World War II international order: US security guarantees benefit the US far more than any "tribute" from Japan or South Korea would. One of those benefits is that they prevent the spread of nuclear weapons, and thus limit the risk of nuclear war. Either Trump doesn't recognize this as a benefit or he doesn't care.

Trump is making a lot of missteps on some really crucial issues. Heaven help us if he gets in office.
CK
 

Gunky

Well-Known Member
Yes, It seems to me like Hillary was promised the white house in 2012 and everyone in the democratic party and our elected officials are trying to make that happen, whether we want it or not.

Probably some backroom "deal" was hatched. I hear she is good at hatching deals...:disgust:

Less corruption or more opportunity to participate in it!

Bull. The president is supposed to lead. In our political system that means building alliances, having parties, yadda yadda. If nobody in congress supports the candidate how is he going to lead them? Your comment indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of how our constitutional system and politics work.

As for "whether we want it or not" - Hillary has gotten way more votes in the primaries, so again bull.
 
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Gunky,

grokit

well-worn member
On Tuesday night, during a televised town hall, CNN's Anderson Cooper asked Donald Trump about one of his more provocative comments during a recent foreign policy interview with the New York Times, in which he seemed to suggest he would allow or encourage South Korea or Japan to get nuclear weapons.

Here's what he said:

COOPER: It has been a U.S. policy for decades to prevent Japan from getting a nuclear weapon.

TRUMP: That might be policy, but maybe...

COOPER: South Korea as well.

TRUMP: Can I be honest are you? Maybe it's going to have to be time to change, because so many people, you have Pakistan has it, you have China has it. You have so many other countries are now having it.


There you have it: Trump is suggesting that the US should consider allowing Japan and South Korea develop nuclear weapons.

This fits with Trump's broader worldview, inasmuch as he has one. He believes America is paying too much money to defend its allies around the world — and that they should either pay the US for its trouble or develop their own means of protecting themselves. Nuclear weapons, in Trump's view, would allow Japan and South Korea to deter North Korea and China without the US spending a single cent. Everybody wins!

This, as my colleague Max Fisher explains, profoundly misunderstands the post–World War II international order: US security guarantees benefit the US far more than any "tribute" from Japan or South Korea would. One of those benefits is that they prevent the spread of nuclear weapons, and thus limit the risk of nuclear war. Either Trump doesn't recognize this as a benefit or he doesn't care.

Trump is making a lot of missteps on some really crucial issues. Heaven help us if he gets in office.
CK
Yes lets give nukes to the country we nuked...
...the only country that's ever been nuked.

Makes perfect sense :mental:
 

CarolKing

Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
The problem I have is Hillary has gotten preferential treatment this whole time since before she started running. The head of the democratic national party constantly is singing her praises. I would think that she should be impartial.

I think a lot of other folks feel somewhat angry about this too. It doesn't seem right. Why should she get a free pass to the presidency? Was it because she bowed out gracefully to Barack Obama? Was it just her turn?

Between being appalled at all the stupid shit Trump is saying and Hillary Clinton getting a free pass to the presidency my head hurts. I need to grind up some cannabis. I needed to vent.

Edit
@Gunky - i am whining.

The polls are saying that Trump could lose Wisconsin.
 
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Gunky

Well-Known Member
The problem I have is Hillary has gotten preferential treatment this whole time since before she started running. The head of the democratic national party constantly is singing her praises. I would think that she should be impartial.

I think a lot of other folks feel somewhat angry about this too. It doesn't seem right. Why should she get a free pass to the presidency? Was it because she bowed out gracefully to Barack Obama? Was it just her turn?
She has received a lot more votes and Bernie has mainly won caucuses, which are not terribly representative. Now you are getting into unseemly whining and special pleading. Anyway who listens to whatshername, Debbie?
 
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Joel W.

Deplorable Basement Dweller
Accessory Maker
Your comment indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of how our constitutional system and politics work.
It's true, I am not well read, I barely squeaked through high school and I was on meth for a decade but I don't think our "system" is working correctly, as is. Not for the poor and middle class anyways. Seems to be working great for the rich folks tho.

Favoring Clinton because she fits the "system" better than Burnie seems like more of the same. You do see some favoring don't you?
 

Gunky

Well-Known Member
It's true, I am not well read, I barely squeaked through high school and I was on meth for a decade but I don't think our "system" is working correctly, as is. Not for the poor and middle class anyways. Seems to be working great for the rich folks tho.

Favoring Clinton because she fits the "system" better than Burnie seems like more of the same. You do see some favoring don't you?
I'd like to see some change and we were starting to get some until the repubs won the midterm elections a couple times. The democrats are the only effective progressive party we have. Much as I like his views, Bernie Sanders has played the role of left-wing crank in congress. All talk, no action. If you want to get things done in our system of government you have to have allies. This is how it works, like it or not. We don't have any other form of government on offer, nor would I opt for any other. It's messy but it does work to a considerable extent. And it works through parties, not lone wolf politicians.

I applaud Bernie supporters for their idealism but I also shake my head that they let him get away with vague and gauzy promises of a 'revolution' whenever questioned about the sticky details of how he would actually accomplish any of his goals. It reminds me of how I would talk as a college sophomore 45 years ago. Yeah man, revolution! He essentially proposes that we elect him, and then hope it will magically transform the country. Yeah right. He has to say that because he has no allies, no movement beyond himself. Effectively there are no plausible details, it's all just pie in the sky or 'aspirational' as people like to say nowadays.

People think just take two bernies before bed and you'll feel great in the morning. Even if by some chance Bernie stumbles into the presidency, who do you think he would have to work with? Yup, those same soulless minions of orthodoxy supposedly bent on keeping dear Bernie down - senators and representatives.
 
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Joel W.

Deplorable Basement Dweller
Accessory Maker
@Gunky's message I'm hearing is that the democrat senators and congressmen, just like their counter part republicans are all about the party and power. So if an independent becomes president through the will of the people they will just screw them over. ---> For your own sake best to go with the people already in power.

Screw them, they are next to go if unwilling to listen, as it should be.

Welcome to FC. Hell of a first post and I agree 100% :clap:
 

Farid

Well-Known Member
I'd agree with Gunky's assessment of Bernie if there was another candidate that was viable. I like Bernie, but in terms of getting stuff done I think he'd have a Hell of a time.

Where I disagree with him is that I see no better alternative. Clinton would be a horrible disaster, so Bernie is the obvious choice. I know Republicans who feel this way as well as Democrats. Clinton is not fit to lead this country, and would cause divisions the same way Trump or Cruz would. She is a divisive figure, and that is not what this country needs right now.
 

cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
A couple folks in here have talked about the fact that Bernie is NOT a Democrat. He has only declared as a Dem to run for office and capture what resources he can from the Democratic party to help himself win. As far as allegiance to or cooperation with the Dems, not so much. He sees no responsibility to or collegiality with other Democrats. What might this actually mean for the election process itself and for his potential presidency? And what might that mean to have him in the role of the head of the party?

New differences emerge between Clinton and Sanders

As the race for the Democratic nomination has progressed, there’s been a fair amount of commentary about the similarities between Hillary Clinton’s and Bernie Sanders’ platforms. They bring very different backgrounds to the table, but when it comes to many of their top policy priorities, the presidential contenders tend to have similar goals, even if they disagree on precisely how to reach those goals.

But Clinton and Sanders sat down with Rachel yesterday – I sure hope you saw last night’s interviews – and a surprising number of contrasts emerged between the two.

For example, Clinton, who has helped Democratic campaign committees and state parties raise money for the 2016 elections, twice emphasized how important she believes it is to help congressional Democrats. Sanders, an independent, is taking a wait-and-see approach.
MADDOW: I have to ask, though, if you have thought about whether or not you will, at some point, turn your fundraising ability toward helping the Democratic Party more broadly, to helping their campaign committees for the House and the Senate and for other – for other elections?

SANDERS: Well, right now, Rachel, as you are more than aware, our job is to – what I’m trying to do is to win the Democratic nomination. […]

MADDOW: Well, obviously your priority is the nomination, but I mean you raised Secretary Clinton there. She has been fundraising both for the nomination and for the Democratic Party. At some point, do you think – do you foresee a time during this campaign when you’ll start doing that?

SANDERS: Well, we’ll see. And, I mean right now, again, our focus is on winning the nomination.​
This is a pretty important difference, which I suspect some party officials – i.e., superdelegates – noticed.

It wasn’t the only difference, though.

Rachel also noted, for example, that the Republican Party may be facing an internal crisis of sorts, especially with so many in the GOP opposing the party’s likely nominee. She asked Clinton, “[D]o you basically look at the Republican party in this kind of crisis and say, you know, ‘Good riddance. That party needs to be blown up. I hope they come back as something better,’ or do you worry about that?”

Clinton responded that she favors “two strong parties.” Faced with the same question, Sanders said, “Well, I’m not going to give the Republican leadership, you know, really any ideas on how they can reorganize their party. All I can tell you is that it is absolutely imperative for the future of this country and for future generations that we do not have a Republican in the White House, whether it is Trump or Cruz or anybody else.”

On the Supreme Court, Sanders would vote for Judge Merrick Garland’s nomination, but nevertheless sees him as too conservative. On the other hand, Clinton argued, in reference to the court, “I don’t want any daylight between me and President Obama.”

On Democratic superdelegates in the nominating process, Rachel asked if Clinton would forswear the idea of party insiders elevating a candidate who’s trailing in pledged delegates and popular votes. “I don’t understand the argument,” Clinton responded. “If I have more popular votes and more delegates, then I think it’s pretty clear that the people who turned out and voted, chose me to be the nominee.”

Sanders, however, continues to suggest he’ll push party insiders to give him a boost, even if his campaign comes up short in pledged delegates after the primaries and caucuses. From the transcript:
SANDERS: Well, look, I don’t want to get into – too deeply into process here. First of all, we hope to be ahead in the delegate count. That’s the important thing. But what I do believe is that there are a lot of Republican – a lot of super delegates who have signed onto Hillary Clinton a long, long time ago, and then you have other superdelegates who are in states where we have won by 20, 30, 40 points. And the people in those states are saying, “You know what, we voted for Bernie Sanders by 30 or 40 points, you’ve got to support him at the convention.” So we’ll see what happens down the line.​
Asked if his campaign is already working on “lobbying” these Democratic superdelegates, the senator replied, “Yes, we are. We are.”

If campaigns are all about identifying areas of contrast, last night brought some of the differences between Clinton and Sanders into sharper focus.
 

His_Highness

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king
I dislike the concept of Super-delegates because, in theory, it can be used to supersede the popular vote.

Super-delegates have been around since the early 1980's ..... BUT....Was there ever a time where the Super-delegates voted in opposition of the popular vote AND caused their nominee to win?

I get that they can cause a shift in voting by skewing the numbers as they go along.... similar to publicizing so-n-so has won before it's true.
 

Magic9

Plant Enthusiast
The first two years of a dem. presidency will be met with obstructionism. So will Trump/Cruz to a lesser extent. That leaves 2018 midterms. Will Clinton be able to turn out voters? She has directly tied herself to Obama and his policies. Both 2010 and 2014 were dismal years for the Democrats. In large part due to independent voters. In 1994, Bill Clinton suffered a large midterm loss. 1998 was better, nowhere near enough to offset the 94 blood bath.

What do all three have in common? They're all New Democrats/neoliberals. I see no reason to believe that Hillary Clinton will somehow manage to avoid the fates of her two democratic predecessors. The last time a democratic president gained in both the House and the Senate, was FDR in 1934. Republican Bush did it in 2002. Congress currently has the highest republican majority since 1929-1931. As bad as a Trump presidency would be, imagine how bad it it will be if republicans had 60+ seats in the Senate.

Sanders has a rather large base of independent voters. With these, along with support of the democrats, he at least has the possibility of returning control of Congress (11% approval rating?) to the democrats/independents. He not only beats Trump by a larger margin in polls, he also beats Cruz and Kasich. I know general election polls are bullshit at this stage, but it is worrying to me that Clinton is consistently losing to Kasich in these polls. She should be crushing him based on name recognition alone.

The superdelegates will only be a factor if the pledged delegates is around a 5% difference. They will only hang their necks out so far. After all, it is their job on the line. They don't support Clinton because they think she's the best. They support her due to the DNC controlling their money flow (see the recurring theme?). They want to retain their power and will vote in whatever way they deem necessary to hang onto it.

I don't think either candidate will get the 2,383 pledged delegates needed to clinch it. It will then be up to the superdelegates to decide which one gives them a better chance of keeping thir jobs in the coming years.

This article is a long read, but it highlights how close this race actually is.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/seth-...rnie-sanders-historic-comeback_b_9557952.html

With 45% of pledged delegates still up for grabs, Sanders overtaking her in the new WI poll, plus closing the gap in the NY poll, it should be interesting to see how it plays out.

---

On the plus side, AJAM is reporting that the FBI will be conducting interviews soon. We should know in the next few days or weeks what will come of it. Better to find out before the nomination.


-

EDIT*

 
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Joel W.

Deplorable Basement Dweller
Accessory Maker
Joel W.,
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grokit

well-worn member
The new york primaries will be huge for the democratic race. It's very interesting because of the many jews in that state that will go for sanders, but hillary was a senator there so it's kinda like home for her.
 

grokit

well-worn member

Magic9

Plant Enthusiast
His_Highness said:
BUT....Was there ever a time where the Super-delegates voted in opposition of the popular vote AND caused their nominee to win?

No. They played a role in the 84 election with Mondale. He wound up with a slight lead in total votes cast though.

In 08, Obama won more pledged delegates, causing many superdelegates to flip from Clinton to him. Technically though, Clinton may have won more popular votes if you count MI where Obama wasn't on the ballot.
 

HellsWindStaff

Dharma Initiate
I also dislike superdelegates and think that they are part of the problem. I saw Harry Reid mentioned on the prior page..........that guy is corrupt, and is part of the problem. There are others, who do exactly what he does too. I don't want the same old corruption...

Are you guys familiar with real estate bribes? Thats his bread and butter.

If a house/property I own is valued at 500k, well you are my good friend and I don't have the need for this property anyways, I will do you a really good deal and sell it to you for 300k.

Then you just turn around, and sell the house at its value of 500k and profit 200k. I could of sold the house myself, and just given you 200k, but then that would be illegal :)

Google, "Harry Reid Real Estate Deals" if you want some more hard nosed opinions on it/him

The Donald Trump Abortion comments.......did you guys watch the debate?? Clearly the media articles posting him up as the devil did not.

The question was: "IF abortions were illegal......"

So, he's saying that the doctors and women who are breaking the law (though he's recanted the women), would be subject to punishment. Should they not follow the law??? Isn't that literally all he's saying, if they did something illegal, they would be punished. I don't see how you can read into this any other way. He's not saying punish women/doctors who have abortions right now.

IF abortions were illegal.......

That bothers me. The amount of misconstruing.

Bernie Sanders is in the 'burgh today. My facebook friends are excited. I agree with this sentiment regarding him:
"
If you want to get things done in our system of government you have to have allies. This is how it works, like it or not."

But I think that Democrats AND Republicans have failed in this. The Republicans, alone, did not set us back. Politicians/Politics in general have failed the common people. The Democrats too, failed. I think its funny that its apparently a one way street and the evil Republicans set us back all those times before when we were on the cusp of "good things"....really? I understand that's your perspective, but my dad's in his 50's and could argue why Obama and Clinton and Carter all "set us back". My dad is a smart guy, but it discredits him when he is super narrow minded Republican. I'm sure ya'll are smart people, but from my eyes, it discredits you when get as narrow minded. My point is that it seems asinine to point fingers one way or the other.

I hope for a change in establishment and political structures in my lifetime. Rather than blindly follow the same constructs always on the hope of a better tomorrow and always with something or someone to blame as to why that better tomorrow never comes.
 

cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
How Barack Obama Destroyed the Republican Party
When President Obama invited the congressional Republicans to Blair House to discuss his comprehensive health care reform bill on February 25th, 2010, he had a variety of motives. Despite passing the Affordable Care Act through the House on November 7th, and through the Senate on Christmas Eve, the bill had not gone through the conference process that reconciles House and Senate versions of a bill into one piece of legislation which must then be passed (again) by both houses to become a law. On January 19th, Scott Brown unexpectedly won a special election in Massachusetts to fill the seat of the recently deceased Sen. Edward Kennedy, and the Democrats lost the 60th vote they needed in the Senate to reconcile their bill with the House’s version.

At that point, the bill was truly endangered, and the only way to save it was to use a controversial parliamentary procedure that I won’t go into in detail here. Suffice to say that some Democrats were feeling skittish about it, particularly in the House, because the procedural move required the House to pass the Senate version of the bill with no changes. Meanwhile, the Republicans were hammering the president for breaking a campaign pledge to conduct the health reform negotiations publicly and transparently on C-SPAN.

So, the president asked the Republicans to Blair House and put the whole thing on C-SPAN and made a big show of inviting them to provide their input to improve the bill. Looming over the whole thing was the obvious threat that the Democrats would pass the bill as it was if no Republicans came forward who were willing to trade their support for inclusion of some of their ideas.

Now, the Blair House meeting was naked political theater, but it didn’t have to be. The Republicans had adopted a policy of opposition in principle, meaning that the details of the bill were irrelevant. If you doubt me, Mitch McConnell twice went on the record to prove that I am right.

Only a few weeks after the Blair House meeting, McConnell explained to the New York Times why the details of the bill never mattered:
“It was absolutely critical that everybody be together because if the proponents of the bill were able to say it was bipartisan, it tended to convey to the public that this is O.K., they must have figured it out.”
A year later, in early 2011, he told Joshua Green of the Atlantic:
“We worked very hard to keep our fingerprints off of these proposals. Because we thought—correctly, I think—that the only way the American people would know that a great debate was going on was if the measures were not bipartisan. When you hang the ‘bipartisan’ tag on something, the perception is that differences have been worked out, and there’s a broad agreement that that’s the way forward.”
This obstructive strategy wasn’t restricted to the health care bill. It was across the board. And historians will debate how long it took President Obama to figure out that he was dealing with adversaries of zero good faith. But the president wasn’t deluded into thinking the Blair House meeting would create some kind of breakthrough. It was strictly for optics and to sooth anxiety in his own caucuses.
The thing is, the unwillingness of the Republicans to negotiate was their decision.
Keep that in mind when reading Daniel Henninger’s piece in the Wall Street Journal.

Barack Obama will retire a happy man. He is now close to destroying his political enemies—the Republican Party, the American conservative movement and the public-policy legacy of Ronald Reagan.

Today, the last men standing amidst the debris of the Republican presidential competition are Donald Trump, a political independent who is using the Republican Party like an Uber car; Ted Cruz, who used the Republican Party as a footstool; and John Kasich, a remnant of the Reagan revolution, who is being told by Republicans to quit.

History may quibble, but this death-spiral began with Barack Obama’s health-care summit at Blair House on Feb. 25, 2010. For a day, Republicans gave detailed policy critiques of the proposed Affordable Care Act. When it was over, the Democrats, including Mr. Obama, said they had heard nothing new.

That meeting was the last good-faith event in the Obama presidency. Barack Obama killed politics in Washington that day because he had no use for it, and has said so many times.
I don’t know if Henninger believes a single word of what he wrote there, but none of what he wrote about the Blair House summit is true. There was nothing “good faith” about the summit on either side, although, as I’ve said, there was also nothing precluding the Republicans from engaging in the legislative process.

The “detailed policy critiques” the Republicans supposedly supplied that day were talking points that ignored the analysis of the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office. Virtually nothing they said or predicted turned out to be true. And no Republican offered to support the bill if only some of their concerns were addressed.

Henninger has correctly recognized that the president has presided over the destruction of his political enemies, but his analysis of how and why this happened reflects his permanent residence in a giant bubble of epistemic closure where the only sound is the chords of the Mighty Right-Wing Wurlitzer that plays all day long, every day.
For example:

After Mr. Obama won in 2008, Democrats controlled the Senate and House with large majorities. Normally, a party out of power is disabled but not destroyed by the presidency’s advantages. Democrats, when out of power, historically remain intact until the wheel turns again. Their ideology has been simple: tax and spend.

The minority Republicans began well. In 2010, ObamaCare passed with zero Republican Senate votes, and Dodd-Frank with only one Republican Senate vote. It was a remarkable display of party discipline.
Whatever you want to say about the ideology that drove Democrats to support the Affordable Care Act, it ought to be generously recognized that providing people access to health care was the priority, not taxing or spending to provide that access. As for the Republican opposition to the Dodd-Frank bill (and the American Recovery Act), this was more than a remarkable display of party discipline. It was an appalling display of refusal to take any responsibility for running the global economy into the Great Recession. When Dick Cheney justified Bush’s giant tax cuts by saying that Ronald Reagan had proven that budget deficits don’t matter, there was barely a peep of objection from conservative Republicans, but once Obama needed spending to save the economy, they suddenly thought the deficit was the biggest problem facing the country. They did nothing as the housing bubble inflated, pumped up by toxic under-regulated financial products and mortgage lending standards, and they bemoaned the bailout of failing colossal banks, but they couldn’t be bothered to support legislation designed to prevent a repeat of those mistakes.

For Henninger, this performance amounted to the Republicans “starting well” at the beginning of the Obama presidency.

In his opinion, things didn’t begin to go wrong until after Obama was reelected, and:

The right began demanding that congressional Republicans conduct ritualistic suicide raids on the Obama presidency. The MSM would have depicted these as hapless defeats by presidential veto, but some wanted the catharsis of constant public losses—on principle.

By early 2015, when the primary season began, virtually all issues inside the Republican Party had been reframed as proof of betrayal—either of conservative principle or of “the middle class.” Trade is a jobs sellout. Immigration reform is amnesty.

With his Cheshire Cat grin, Barack Obama faded into the background and let the conservatives’ civil war rip. For Republicans, every grievance, slight or loss became a scab to be picked, day after day.

In time, the attacks on “the establishment” and “donor class” became indiscriminate, ostracizing good people in the party and inside the conservative movement. The anti-establishment offensive created a frenzy faction inside the Republican base. And of course, it produced Donald Trump.

The Trumpians and Cruzians, who of late have been knifing one another in a blind rage, say this is a rebirth. So was Rosemary’s baby.

NEXT PAGE
 

cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
PAGE 2

Where’s the recognition that the overheated rhetoric of the first term led to the calls for ritualistic suicide missions in the second? And, let’s be honest. The Republicans didn’t wait until the second term to begin the suicide missions. According to a tally kept by the Washington Post, the Republicans had already voted to repeal all or part of Obamacare 33 times by Election Day in 2012.

Now, for my money, the key moment that set the Republicans on the course of destruction didn’t come at the Blair House of February 25th, 2010. It came at the Republican retreat in Baltimore on January 29th, 2010. That’s when the president responded to a question from Rep. Marsha Blackburn of Tennessee about his health care bill:

The component parts of this thing are pretty similar to what Howard Baker, Bob Dole, and Tom Daschle proposed at the beginning of this debate last year.

Now, you may not agree with Bob Dole and Howard Baker, and, certainly you don’t agree with Tom Daschle on much, but that’s not a radical bunch. But if you were to listen to the debate and, frankly, how some of you went after this bill, you’d think that this thing was some Bolshevik plot. No, I mean, that’s how you guys — (applause) — that’s how you guys presented it.

And so I’m thinking to myself, well, how is it that a plan that is pretty centrist — no, look, I mean, I’m just saying, I know you guys disagree, but if you look at the facts of this bill, most independent observers would say this is actually what many Republicans — is similar to what many Republicans proposed to Bill Clinton when he was doing his debate on health care.

So all I’m saying is, we’ve got to close the gap a little bit between the rhetoric and the reality. I’m not suggesting that we’re going to agree on everything, whether it’s on health care or energy or what have you, but if the way these issues are being presented by the Republicans is that this is some wild-eyed plot to impose huge government in every aspect of our lives, what happens is you guys then don’t have a lot of room to negotiate with me.

I mean, the fact of the matter is, is that many of you, if you voted with the administration on something, are politically vulnerable in your own base, in your own party. You’ve given yourselves very little room to work in a bipartisan fashion because what you’ve been telling your constituents is, this guy is doing all kinds of crazy stuff that’s going to destroy America.

And I would just say that we have to think about tone. It’s not just on your side, by the way — it’s on our side, as well. This is part of what’s happened in our politics, where we demonize the other side so much that when it comes to actually getting things done, it becomes tough to do.
The Republicans should have listened to the president’s advice.

They thought they’d get more short-term bang for the buck by encouraging the Tea Party and the Birthers (including Trump). And they did.

And now their long-term reward is “Barack Obama will retire a happy man. He is now close to destroying his political enemies—the Republican Party, the American conservative movement and the public-policy legacy of Ronald Reagan.”
 

TeeJay1952

Well-Known Member
@HellsWindStaff I know I will never be able to convince you of the error of your ways in thinking this jackanape buffoon in any way represents the people and history of this nation. Please look at what he says and proposes.
Rewrite libel laws so he can profit from critical articles.
Ignore Geneva Convention and order our soldiers to commit atrocities because "they" did. Wants to kill families of terrorists. I would hate to be shot for shenanigans that my brother pulls.
Ban on the basis of a religious philosophy. Or suspect of that religion. (Constitution anyone?)
Wants to remove a Woman's Right To Choose.


Any one of the above is a disqualifier. IMHO
Man wants to rewrite constitution and renegotiate all foreign relations. When I hear Bearie will be stymied with his revolution I can't help but wonder how Trump plans to jam any of this through without an element of jackboot thuggery.
 

lwien

Well-Known Member
IF abortions were illegal.......

That bothers me. The amount of misconstruing.

I didn't misconstrue that at all and neither did any of the media outlets that I have seen. We have all totally understood that the question was "IF abortions were illegal.."

I was around when abortions were illegal and the women were always thought of as victims..........not lawbreakers. Hell, even the recant that Trump made said the exact same thing. And, the pro-life people were upset with his statement as well.

Seems like if there is any misconstruing here going on, it is with you.
 
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