The 2016 Presidential Candidates Thread

[KimDracula]

It strikes me that those who simply don't like Hillary (because she's simply not that charming) are seizing on the most convenient answers to justify it and are somehow distilling all foreign policy to "she voted wrong on Iraq" while swallowing Bernie's line about Wall Street and speaking fees. I think a lot of people may have fallen for GOP propaganda on non-scandal after non-scandal. These are broad observations rather than an argument directed specifically at anyone here, just to be clear.

I like Bernie but he has failed to really broaden his message, IMO, beyond the central message of fixing the wealth gap and a lot of rhetoric about campaign finance reform and revolution. I like that message, but I don't see the revolution happening by simply electing this man nor do I see a path to campaign finance reform that is either feasible or unique to Sanders. I see familiar outsider/maverick/change tropes manifesting but without a real plan on the ground to go with the lofty messaging. This was cool when he was just pulling Hillary further to the Left, but if he's going to be the nominee it would be nice to be able to deliver on some of the rather big promises he's made.

 

[macbill]

That's true. I remember when Obama got nominated, some Democratic women were so pissed they claimed they were going to vote Republican to spite. I'm more concerned with keeping the Democrats in the White House.

 

[KimDracula]

That's true. I remember when Obama got nominated, some Democratic women were so pissed they claimed they were going to vote Republican to spite. I'm more concerned with keeping the Democrats in the White House.

Exactly. It's still about the party whether people like it or not and there are still massive differences between the two.

 

[Farid]

Writing me off as simply not liking Hillary because she's not charming ignores everything I have been saying. I don't give a damn about her "charm" or her personal life. I will not vote for her because of the fact that I have friends who are Iraqi. I don't see the world as our playground, and I think people should have to answer for their fucking terrible decisions.

 

[KimDracula]

I get it. You're voting on Iraq and only that. If I had been referring to you specifically then it would have been obvious. You'd have seen your name mentioned.

 

[cybrguy]

So you'll vote for him if he's the party nominee, but you wont vote for him in the primary despite him being the candidate that matches with your beliefs? It's usually the other way around, you're not taking a risk by voting for Sanders in the primary.

Farid, you just don't get it. OF COURSE we are taking a risk voting for him in the primaries. HE MIGHT WIN! And if he does the REPUBLICANS win the general. It's that simple.

 

[howie105]

macbill....I wish I could say I have confidence the America people will vote a self-described Socialist into office. I don't believe it will happen. They aren't that smart. It's the word “Socialist”....It just has to get bad enough for people to look beyond their current political limits. Sadly that applies to voters moving right when they feel things have gotten bad enough too.

 

[Farid]

Farid, you just don't get it. OF COURSE we are taking a risk voting for him in the primaries. HE MIGHT WIN! And if he does the REPUBLICANS win the general. It's that simple.

So you're saying Hillary is the only person who has a chance against the republicans... got it. What data is that based on? Cause looking at Iowa, she didn't get that wide margin lead that you and others insisted she would have.

distilling all foreign policy to "she voted wrong on Iraq"

That would be true if Iraq was a one time mistake. Hillary continued to push regime change in Libya an Syria. She cannot learn from her own mistakes, and will lie and manipulate facts to cover up her previous ones.

 

[cybrguy]

So you're saying Hillary is the only person who has a chance against the republicans... got it. What data is that based on?

We don't Have a choice of EVERYONE, Farid. We have a choice of Bernie or Hillary, and to me Hillary is the obvious choice. And your hating her for a single decision in her career will have NO influence on my decision, sorry.

 

[His_Highness]

It's the absolute certainty by some that...... Bernie winning the primary means the republicans win the general that absolutely amazes me. No ifs, ands or buts about it. No other possibility exists.

I wish I could be that certain about anything in the future.....

 

[Farid]

We don't Have a choice of EVERYONE, Farid. We have a choice of Bernie or Hillary, and to me Hillary is the obvious choice. And your hating her for a single decision in her career will have NO influence on my decision, sorry.

Oh it's so obvious, just like her win in Iowa was.

 

[macbill]

She's OUR liar.

 

[His_Highness]

The irony for me is that of all the baggage Hillary may have to carry, her voting for the Iraq war is the one I least take offense to. Maybe it's because she did something I wish the republicans would do on occasion.....stand behind their president every now and then.

Do I think it was the right decision...hell no. I didn't think it was the right decision even back then but the emotion at the time .... made it feel more palatable to stand behind the president.

 

[cybrguy]

The main problem with politicians is when they begin to accept money from wealthy sources. Once you accept 'this kind of money' you essentially have made a contract with the source that provides the money. Sorry to say this is how it works and politicians seldom use a different strategy.

You are certainly entitled to your cynicism, it isn't like it isn't obvious that there are plenty of folks out there who expect a quid pro quo for their campaign donations. There are also many folks out there who steal from their family members and who treat minorities and underlings badly. That doesn't mean that everyone does.

Nevermind that that isn't what _I_ expect when I make a donation, or what MANY (I might say most) people expect when they make a donation. Ya see, I donate TO SUPPORT SOMEONE WHOSE POSITIONS I AGREE WITH. I expect them to keep on doing just what they ALREADY ARE doing. I'm not sending them money for a favor. I'm sending them money to help them get elected. So, isn't it possible that those big money donors are NOT monsters trying to influence a candidates positions, but instead are fans that want him or her to do what they have promised to do?

 

[KimDracula]

Yes, politics in the US is under undue influence of money. This is the biggest problem with our system. Nothing will every truly be fixed while this is the case. Electing one person who seems better on this than the average, while nice, also will not fix the bigger problem (unfortunately).

Iowa is not at all representative of the greater US politically. This is obvious. Additionally, how closely Bernie performed against Hillary there has no bearing on how Bernie would do in a general election versus the Republican nominee. Hillary isn't the only one who could beat the Republicans, but she is the only other option. Your responses on these things have been incoherent, @Farid .

I hold the Iraq decision against her more than that @His_Highness , but there are many other factors in play for me.

 

[Farid]

She's OUR liar.

I'm glad you posted this. It articulates everything I hate about Hillary. She's incredibly sectarian and a liar. Americans are sick of divisive candidates. They want candidates who do not see this country as groups of "us" and "them", but see this country as US.

Your responses on these things have been incoherent, [COLOR=rgb(228, 228, 228)]@Farid[/COLOR] .

If you think I'm being incoherent quote what you think doesn't make sense. Without that I just see it as attacking me.

 

[His_Highness]

Lets not be naive about taking money, a lot of money, from those who you supposedly oppose. It smells bad and doesn't look good because when a corporation gives a large donation or speaking fee it's not because of anything altruistic or moral. It just business......on both sides.

Maybe I'm the one that's naive but when Ben and Jerry gives someone money I don't feel as concerned as when Wall Street does.

 

[macbill]

I'm glad you posted this. It articulates everything I hate about Hillary. She's incredibly sectarian and a liar. Americans are sick of divisive candidates. They want candidates who do not see this country as groups of "us" and "them", but see this country as US.



If you think I'm being incoherent quote what you think doesn't make sense. Without that I just see it as attacking me.

I'm sorry you took my response as anything more than a feeble attempt at humor. Excuse me. Someone might think I'm stoned. May the first candidate who is without sin cast the first stone.

 

[howie105]

It strikes me that those who simply don't like Hillary (because she's simply not that charming) are seizing on the most convenient answers to justify it and are somehow distilling all foreign policy to "she voted wrong on Iraq" while swallowing Bernie's line about Wall Street and speaking fees......Oh no there are a lots of other reasons people don't like Clinton. Just like there are many reasons people don't like Sanders beyond the socialist thing. Reality is often very complicated and tending to grey.

I think a lot of people may have fallen for GOP propaganda on non-scandal after non-scandal. These are broad observations rather than an argument directed specifically at anyone here, just to be clear...Toasting the opposition is just part of the process look at history, if we can't filter the old and obvious tricks then we stand no chance to coming to an informed decision. Yes it is a tool used by both sides and yes everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

I like Bernie but he has failed to really broaden his message, IMO, beyond the central message of fixing the wealth gap and a lot of rhetoric about campaign finance reform and revolution....Hard to tell what the campaign management is seeing nationally about issues and presentations but seeing that they are Sanders picked people setting in the middle of the operation I suspect he is getting what he wants. I quit seconding campaign professionals when they got Nixon elected, still don't want to believe that happened.

I see familiar outsider/maverick/change tropes manifesting but without a real plan on the ground to go with the lofty messaging....Clinton, Trump, Cruz heck all of them are short on actual concrete plans but much better with spin which sadly is a bigger part of national elections.

This was cool when he was just pulling Hillary further to the Left, but if he's going to be the nominee it would be nice to be able to deliver on some of the rather big promises he's made....Holding your breath waiting for politicians to deliver on campaign promises usually makes one pass out and fall over regardless of party or candidate in question.

 

[KimDracula]

So you're saying Hillary is the only person who has a chance against the republicans... got it. What data is that based on? Cause looking at Iowa, she didn't get that wide margin lead that you and others insisted she would have.....

Hillary is the only other choice we have. When this was pointed out (even though it was obvious) you responded with another strange non-sequitur.

Oh it's so obvious, just like her win in Iowa was.

What is your point here? It seems like you're just making really glib responses without sticking to an intelligible line of reasoning.

@howie105 : I haven't seen many of those reasons elaborated on (regarding Hillary). I see a lot of general mistrust and dislike and a lot about the Iraq war. I suspect this is because this is the main line coming out of the Sanders campaign, along with the stuff about speaking fees and lobbying from Wall Street, which again is coming straight from the Sanders campaign. I'm wondering if anyone is doing their own homework when it comes to Clinton. That's all.

You seemed to really gloss over how many ridiculous non-scandals have been thrown at Hillary in order to discredit her and wrote only about what political opponents do to each other. I'm not really getting what you're putting down here nor do I understand what you're on about regarding Bernie's campaign management. My point is that Bernie is only really hitting one note over and over and IMO he needs to have a broader message.

Clinton is the strongest when it comes to concrete plans, actually. Bernie isn't so great on this. Of course the Republicans don't have any plans. Bernie talks a lot about how much needs to change, and I agree, but he can't get us there. Electing him is not a revolution. Nobody should hold their breath waiting for campaign promises. I agree. This is why I wary of those who promise so much, like Bernie, when it's well-known that those things promised are out of reach.

 

[howie105]

She's OUR liar.

Spot on.
Edit/add ...but then which professional political operatives aren’t.

 

[Farid]

Hillary is the only other choice we have. When this was pointed out (even though it was obvious) you responded with another strange non-sequitur.



What is your point here? It seems like you're just making really glib responses without sticking to an intelligible line of reasoning.

My point here is that Clinton supporters keep insisting things which are not true. First it's the idea that Clinton is the only candidate that has a chance against the republicans, then it was that Hillary was going to win Iowa without question.

My point is that Bernie is only really hitting one note over and over and IMO he needs to have a broader message.

What about his message isn't broad enough? Most people I know say that his message is too broad and he needs to articulate the details, but not broad enough?

 

[Farid]

Donald Trump is a fucking idiot. I'm sorry there is no excuse to vote for him. I wouldn't have been saying this a year ago, but when he came out spreading the vitriol about Muslims in this country he alienated lots of people who might have voted for him. I would have liked to have other options than the current pool of candidates, but when Trump says he thinks I should be registered in a database because of my ethnicity, he said goodbye to my vote and the votes of any other Americans who are not gullible or racist. I haven't even been to a Mosque in over five years, and have never been for anything besides holidays, but still I am a threat?

Because there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim, I don't exist.

It reminds me of when Clinton supporters say that I am far left because I'm voting Sanders despite me supporting gun rights, and being against government intervention in some State run programs.

 

[cybrguy]

Bernie Sanders Is Predicted To Win The Elections!

Right, because college campuses are the political center of the world given their "HUGE" turnout and follow through...

The 2014 Youth Vote

• 19.9 percent of 18- to 29-years old cast ballots in the 2014 elections. That was the lowest youth turnout rate ever recorded in a federal election. See CIRCLE’s analysis here.
• Overall, young voters in 2014 favored Democratic Congressional candidates over Republicans. For example, according to the national exit poll data on House races, youth aged 18-29 preferred Democratic candidates by 55% to 42%. Young voters also backed Democratic candidates in most Senate races. Read our analysis of youth vote choice here.

Funny that didn't result in a Democratic House and Senate...

 

[howie105]

I see a lot of general mistrust and dislike and a lot about the Iraq war....Well usually if you are the Secretary of State and you boss is actively destabilizing an entire region you are expected to share in the arrows and laurels as they come.

along with the stuff about speaking fees and lobbying from Wall Street, which again is coming straight from the Sanders campaign....Once again, big money in campaigns is an old complaint levelled at both parties and Clinton chose to commit the same action, how one chooses to react to the action is an individual call.

I'm wondering if anyone is doing their own homework when it comes to Clinton. That's all....139,000,000 citizens, yeah I think some may be awake and no I don't expect them to all agree.

You seemed to really gloss over how many ridiculous non-scandals have been thrown at Hillary...That is an opinion and while you are free to have it doesn’t make it so, now dose it?

... in order to discredit her and wrote only about what political opponents do to each other....Wait let me check, yep Sanders is an political opponent and she is surly trying to do him. Seriously look at the whole campaign operations surrogates, family members and paid staffers all operations roast the opposition while they and many of the same surrogates also plead innocence.

I'm not really getting what you're putting down here nor do I understand what you're on about regarding Bernie's campaign management. My point is that Bernie is only really hitting one note over and over and IMO he needs to have a broader message...OK let me try it this way, Sanders has a professional team of managers planing his presentation. If they have decided to focus on a limited set of topics it wasn't by accident. Right or wrong they are the pros getting the big bucks, aren’t they? Is that any clearer for you?