The 2016 Presidential Candidates Thread

cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
I've never heard the stereotype that woman are untrustworthy....is this a thing?
No problem. :) Yes, it is a thing. Women belong pregnant and in the kitchen. While that may SEEM to be archaic thinking, it is not. One need only hang with older white men to have the concept reaffirmed. Do you not remember Foster Friess (republican zillionaire backer of rethugs) when he suggested that all women need for birth control is to "hold an aspirin tablet between their knees...". That is in no manner atypical of his peers.

Of course I am not saying ALL old white men as I am (nearly) one and I know I am not alone. But a disturbingly high number pine for the old days when women knew their place.

To clarify, untrustworthy because they need only worry about the household, and "shouldn't bother their little heads" over important things. They lack the necessary understanding.
 

His_Highness

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king
@cybrguy - Thanks for the clarification. I knew all the other stereotypes but I mistakenly interpreted untrustworthy to mean 'liar and cheat' not 'incompetent' since it was what I alluded to in the statement I had mentioned earlier.

For what it's worth I think woman know their place...for example...if I were to sound off as if I believed the stereotypes we're discussing ...... my wife would make sure I knew her place was going to be 'upside my head' :rofl:
 

cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
OMFG. This is truly frightening...
------------------------------------

Trump focus group: ‘I’ve never seen anything like this’

12/11/15 12:54 PM—Updated 12/11/15 02:33 PM

By Steve Benen

Trump's GOP support contradicts mainstream media narrative
The dominant question in Republican politics right now is what, if anything, Donald Trump’s rivals can do to take down the party’s presidential frontrunner. Over the course of the past few months, a variety of GOP candidates have tried, rolling out various lines of attack, to no avail.

What might persuade Trump supporters to change their minds? Is there a magic-bullet message his competitors could use to bring him down? Republican consultant Frank Luntz organized a focus group this week in Northern Virginia featuring 29 voters, each of whom considered themselves current or former Trump backers, for the purpose of identifying the frontrunner’s biggest weaknesses.

The Washington Post’s Dave Weigel, who was on hand for the Luntz panel, reported on the unexpected findings.

To Luntz’s amazement, hearing negative information about the candidate made the voters, only a few of whom gave their full names to the press, hug the candidate tighter.
“Normally, if I did this for a campaign, I’d have destroyed the candidate by this point,” Luntz told a group of reporters when the session ended. “After three hours of showing that stuff?”

“I’ve never seen anything like this,” Luntz added. “There is no sign of them leaving. He has created or found the magic formula.”

It would appear the focus-group participants were a spirited bunch. Most believed ridiculous conspiracy theories about President Obama; they assumed Trump’s most outlandish lies were true; they endorsed his anti-Muslim plan; and they discounted any information that originated from major news organizations.

Asked about a three-way race pitting Trump, Marco Rubio, and Hillary Clinton, 19 out of 29 said they’d support Trump’s third-party bid. It prompted Luntz to tell reporters, “The Republican establishment just had a heart attack.”

This, however, was probably the most important tidbit from the Post’s article:
At 6:30, when the session began, all 29 participants were asked to rate their likelihood of voting for Trump, and just 10 people said they were at nine or 10. After one hour of mostly negative questions about Trump, six more people joined that confident group.
“I’ve been talking about negatives, and you’re up on him!” said an astounded Luntz. “That’s the story of Trump’s poll numbers.”

This is no small detail. In the usual scenario, a consultant will host a focus group, present them attack ads and negative messaging, and then gauge what had the most significant effect. Campaigns will sometimes even do this for their own candidate, so they can address their most pronounced vulnerabilities.

But this week, in this group, the more criticisms they heard about Trump, the more they ended up liking him. Two of the 29 focus-group participants began the discussion saying they’d cooled on the Republican candidate, but after hearing two-and-a-half hours of negative messaging, they said they were leaving more supportive, not less.

One could make the argument that this is just one focus group, not a major national poll, which is obviously true. Maybe these 29 random Trump voters are representative of a larger whole, maybe not. It’s hard to say any with real confidence.

But imagine you’re a Republican consultant or a strategist for one of the 13 other GOP presidential candidates. Imagine you’re looking at the calendar, worried about the polls, and looking for ways to bring Trump down a peg. After reading about the focus group’s reactions to attacks on Trump, what in the world do you do?

The answer, I suspect, is to wait and hope – for Trump to defeat himself, for his supporters to get bored, and for other candidates to drop out.
 

lwien

Well-Known Member
OMFG. This is truly frightening...

Doesn't frighten me in the least. I actually hope that he gets the nomination for that will truly rip the GOP apart. He may be able to garner enough of the public votes to get the nomination but he will not get the delegates necessary for the GOP nomination, that is, if it goes that far before he drops out of the GOP and runs as a third party candidate.
 
Don't any of you realize that corporations fund both political parties and their candidates. It doesnt matter who wins. They will both tax us, send our youth to die on foreign soil, and fight over financial scraps all the while whittling away at what is left of what we were and could have been. Our nations capacity for production and self reliance has been wholesale sold to the rest of the world. We arent citizens we are consumers and 1's and 0's to be tallied into computers as statistics. There is no freedom because there is no escape. Prison Planet 101. No system of control has ever lasted forever though. We WILL overcome. FUCK the left, right and everything in between. FUCK the corporations. Its all forms of slavery. FIGHT the Global Fascist Regime.
 
DisgruntledSmoker,

cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
Doesn't frighten me in the least. I actually hope that he gets the nomination for that will truly rip the GOP apart.

You misunderstand. This doesn't make me frightened of Trump, for the reasons you state and others. It makes me frightened of Americans and how easily and completely WE can be manipulated. It frightens me for our future, and for any chance that America will remain true to its ideals and promise. The idea that there are so many who are willing to toss what actually makes America great due to fear and ignorance.

I know these folks don't represent a majority by any means. But they are apparently way greater in number than I would have believed before witnessing this phenomena...
 

lwien

Well-Known Member
Don't any of you realize that corporations fund both political parties and their candidates. It doesnt matter who wins.

Sure I realize that, but it still matters who wins. Can you actually believe that everything would remain status quo if Trump was our next president?

You misunderstand. This doesn't make me frightened of Trump, for the reasons you state and others. It makes me frightened of Americans and how easily and completely WE can be manipulated. It frightens me for our future, and for any chance that America will remain true to its ideals and promise. The idea that there are so many who are willing to toss what actually makes America great due to fear and ignorance.

Fear and ignorance have been the tools of the trade when it comes to political campaigning. Always has been. And the reason why they are the tools of the trade is that there has always been a fairly large segment of our population that is fearfully ignorant, especially those that are of the older generation. Nothing new here, really.
 
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grokit

well-worn member
I'm walking through my living room and 'The View' is on the TV and I hear.....

'If you ask who will win the democratic nomination people say it will be Hillary'. 'If you ask the same people if they trust Hillary they say 'No'.

The View is a daytime talk show and not exactly where I go for my political factoids but I didn't like the sound of the that statement. Not saying Hillary is untrustworthy ... just saying that the feeling that the consensus might not trust Hillary could have merit.
There's a huge disconnect regarding just that, that polled democrats don't trust her but they think she has a better chance of winning in a general election than sanders would. But the general polls tell a different story, that sanders actually has an even or better chance no matter/depending who the gop nominee is:

Favorability Ratings Show Hillary Clinton Is Unelectable and Bernie Sanders Wins a General Election

Democrats must win swing states in 2016 to prevent Trump or another Republican from sitting in the Oval Office. Since voters in general elections normally won't vote for a candidate they don't like or at least find trustworthy, it's imperative that a Democratic nominee hold positive favorability ratings going into Election Day.

I explain in great detail in my latest YouTube segment why Hillary Clinton is unelectable due to negative favorability polls nationwide and within swing states.

Also, it used to be important not have an ongoing FBI investigation linked to emails, but any controversy related to the former Secretary of State is viewed as a badge of honor to certain voters. Nonetheless, electability is always tied to winning battleground states, and Hillary Clinton faces an uphill battle pertaining to electoral votes in these regions.

Regarding swing states in 2016, Quinnipiac University's July and August Swing State Polls highlight that voters in Colorado, Iowa, Virginia, Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania don't find Hillary Clinton to be trustworthy:

Colorado
Colorado voters say 62 - 34 percent that Hillary Clinton is not honest and trustworthy; 52 - 46 percent that she has strong leadership qualities and 57 - 39 percent that she does not care about their needs and problems.
Iowa
Hillary Clinton is not honest and trustworthy, Iowa voters say 59 - 33 percent. She is a strong leader, voters say 52 - 43 percent, but she does not care about their needs and problems, voters say 55 - 39 percent.
Virginia
Hillary Clinton is not honest and trustworthy, Virginia voters say 55 - 39 percent. She is a strong leader, voters say 54 - 42 percent, but she does not care about their needs and problems, voters say 50 - 45 percent.
Florida
Clinton gets a negative 37 - 55 percent favorability rating and voters say 64 - 32 percent she is not honest and trustworthy.
Ohio
Ohio voters give Clinton a negative 36 - 54 percent favorability rating and say 60 - 34 percent she is not honest and trustworthy.
Pennsylvania
Pennsylvania voters give Clinton a negative 38 - 55 percent favorability rating and say 63 - 32 percent she is not honest and trustworthy.

A total of 95 electoral votes among these states could be lost because voters don't find Clinton to be honest or trustworthy in 2016.

Also according to Quinnipiac, voters in Colorado, Iowa, and Virginia believe Clinton "does not care about their needs and problems."

If you base Clinton's inevitability upon poll numbers, then make sure to include these facts in your narrative.

Low voter turnout linked to negative favorability numbers could result in a Republican victory in 2016, and when CBS News writes that within the Democratic Party "fourteen percent would not support" Hillary Clinton in an election, negative favorability is the culprit.

As for why I'm voting only for Bernie Sanders, as a registered Democrat since 1997, I explain my thought process in this YouTube segment.

In fact, CBS News also states that among Democrats, "Twenty-seven percent would support her with some reservations and another 11 percent would only back her because she is the nominee."

A great many progressives simply won't show up to the polls with a Clinton nomination (Hillary Clinton has neoconservative advisers, she once supported the TPP, Keystone XL, opposed gay marriage, etc.), and this sentiment is backed up by favorability ratings.

The same polls used to extol Hillary Clinton's lead over Bernie Sanders among Democrats are also the same polls that illustrate voters nationwide don't trust and don't view the former Secretary of State in a favorable manner. According to Huffpost Pollster's Hillary Clinton Favorability Rating, the former Secretary of State has negative favorability ratings in 9 out of 10 national polls:

FAVORABLE UNFAVORABLE

AP-GfK (web): 41 48 Unfavorable +7
Morning Consult: 47 46 Favorable +1
NBC/WSJ: 39 48 Unfavorable +9

Emerson College
Polling Society: 42 55 Unfavorable +13

CNN: 46 50 Unfavorable +4
Morning Consult: 44 51 Unfavorable +7
YouGov/Economist: 43 49 Unfavorable +6
ABC/Post: 47 49 Unfavorable +2
CBS: 33 53 Unfavorable +20
Morning Consult: 42 53 Unfavorable +11

While Clinton only edged out a negative favorability by 1 point in the Morning Consult Poll, she's viewed as unfavorable by a startling margin of 20 points according to CBS. Compared to 2008 when Clinton barely had positive favorability ratings, almost every measurement of Hillary Clinton's favorability within polls today show a candidate who isn't loved by the majority of voters.

(much more...)

:rockon:
 
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grokit,
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Reactions: Derrrpp
Sure I realize that, but it still matters who wins. Can you actually believe that everything would remain status quo if Trump was our next president?



Fear and ignorance have been the tools of the trade when it comes to political campaigning. Always has been. And the reason why they are the tools of the trade is that there has always been a fairly large segment of our population that is fearfully ignorant, especially those that are of the older generation. Nothing new here, really.

I suggest you read Article 2 of the Unites States Constitution. Note that Vetos only work once and Executive Orders cant be used for everything and can most certainly lead to impeachment if found unconstitutional.

At least Trump and Sanders are being honest about their intentions. Evrybody else is selling out playing the PC mainstream game. Lots of obfuscation from the others
 
And you actually don't think that Trump is being obscure when he's asked HOW he's going to implement what he proposes? :doh:

No its my opinion that hes simply speaking his mind and doesnt have any details. Who does? Ive read the bullet points from the red and blue candidates but there is not a single one who actualy has detailed plans to fix the bureaucracy. They all regurgitate the same statist line. Bernie and Trump actauly want to take a machete to the system if you are to believe them that is. So what if they dont have details. Hack away I say!
 
DisgruntledSmoker,

Gunky

Well-Known Member
No its my opinion that hes simply speaking his mind and doesnt have any details. Who does? Ive read the bullet points from the red and blue candidates but there is not a single one who actualy has detailed plans to fix the bureaucracy. They all regurgitate the same statist line. Bernie and Trump actauly want to take a machete to the system if you are to believe them that is. So what if they dont have details. Hack away I say!

:rolleyes:

Have you ever noticed, anyone who uses the word 'statist' is pretty much impervious to history and ordinary notions of evidence and logic? It's some sort of faith-based politics of the 'four legs good two legs bad' type. How is 'everything is bad, save us Trumpy' different from 'save us jeebus'? If somebody wants Trump (or Bernie or anyone really) because they believe in them (even when this person demonstrably lies their ass off daily? Says things that are blatantly racist, bigoted?) there is nothing anyone can say, there is no possibility of argument or even reason. The person is a 'true believer' and there is no point discussing or arguing. Classic example: Moonies. I once spent 10 minutes breaking down for a Mooney at Sproul Plaza on the Berkeley campus how his church manipulates people, substitutes dogma for reason, how their indoctrination does a sort of violence to people.... at the end of which he asked 'but will you come to our dinner?'
 
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You can roll eyes all day but the status quo is what is wrong with everything. Im for candidates that which to change said status. Could care less about the politics. I despise politics. Just prove to me you can change the status quo and Ill give you a vote.
:rolleyes:

Have you ever noticed, anyone who uses the word 'statist' is pretty much immune to history and ordinary notions of evidence and logic? It's some sort of faith-based politics of the 'four legs good two legs bad' type.

Your words are too much for my feeble mind.

P.S I quote out of reference not to argue and one of my heros is Leo Tolstoy. Just so you all get where Im coming from. I understand there are lots of resident socialists in here.
 
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DisgruntledSmoker,
Well, you said it, not me. But I can't help agreeing with you. :)

Why do you have to be so mean? Your only interaction with me thus far has been to try and take me down a notch. I find that to very rude and uncalled for. I was trying to be friendly and jocular yet you act the opposite. Reminds me of bullys who take from others to fill a void within themselves. Perhaps I can find a forum member blocking function. You are not a person whom I wish to deal with again.
 
DisgruntledSmoker,

Stu

Maconheiro
Staff member
Perhaps I can find a forum member blocking function.
You can block all content from a member by clicking their name and then click "ignore".

Please be respectful, we don't want this thread shut down.
Carol is spot on here. Although the staff generally doesn't moderate the lounge, we will (and have) close down any thread where people can't get along. :goon:

:peace:
 

lwien

Well-Known Member
Carol is spot on here. Although the staff generally doesn't moderate the lounge, we will (and have) close down any thread where people can't get along. :goon:

:peace:

Hey Stu. Just some food for thought. This thread is 32 pages long and through all those pages, everything has been very congenial even though there has been opposing views. When things started getting a bit out of hand is when one member here, a relatively new member, comes into this thread and his very first statement is.........."Don't any of you realize...............".

Starting a post like that implies that HE is the one who knows what is really going on and everyone else doesn't, so I'm not surprised that there is a bit of pushback.

And yeah, I know we shouldn't be talking about someone else's posting style but maybe, through this conversation, the member in question may see how this got off on the wrong foot by being confrontational with his opening words.

Last post from me on this subject though. Hope things get back on track. I'd hate to see this very interesting and thought provoking thread get shut down because for most all of us, and I know for me, it has been pretty enlightening, and............kinda cathartic.
 

Gunky

Well-Known Member
Well, my own little attempts at jocularity appear to have fallen flat. I do stand by what I said: that there are some folks with whom discussion is impossible, a talking past each other, because the frame of reference is simply too different. And it seems like 'statism' is some sort of clue to a type of impervious belief structure. I have no idea if the person is trolling us or really believes that stuff, but it is dangerous. Trumpism is dangerous and that's no joke.
 
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lwien

Well-Known Member
Ok, I know I'm not a mod and I know that I contributed to this getting a bit off topic but I do agree with CK. I'd hate to see this thread shut down so how 'bout we all, me included, get back on topic, eh?
 

Derrrpp

For the world is hollow and I have touched the sky
@DisgruntledSmoker FWIW I agree with you that maintaining the status quo right now is dangerous. We need big change, and soon, lest we invite political, economic, and environmental catastrophe. But equating Trump and Sanders because they will both "take a machete to the system" is misguided at best. A President Trump would be the worst thing to happen to this country since... actually I'm not sure I can come up with something worse than Trump. Trump makes Dubya look tame in comparison.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, let's let Bernie do all the hacking away at the system, not Trump. ;)

:2c:
 
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Chill Dude

Well-Known Member
The next Republican debate is coming up soon. Should by rights be a massacre of Trump, but I wonder.

IDK, my guess is the establishment guys like Rubio and Bush will hit Trump pretty hard. However, Cruz is basically Trump without the one liners and insults. Trump and Cruz's ideology are so similar, the only thing different is much different personality traits. I also think Trump and Cruz like each other too much to go after each other hard. My gut feeling is that if Trump eventually tanks, Cruz will be there to grab most of the Trump supporters which may give him a path to the nomination.

As I've said before, IMO Trump and Cruz are too far right to have a good chance of winning in the general. If I were a Republican( so happy I'm not), I'd want to put Rubio up against Hillary. I think Clinton would still win, but could be a nail biter. The Republican establishment loves Rubio and absolutely hates Trump and has no love for Cruz either..

After Trumps recent craziness, I can't wait until Tuesday night. Should be a very heated debate to say the least...
 
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