The 2016 Presidential Candidates Thread

[TeeJay1952]

@grokit Dance off?
My Back Pages

Crimson flames tied through my ears, rollin' high and mighty traps
Pounced with fire on flaming roads using ideas as my maps
"We'll meet on edges, soon, " said I, proud 'neath heated brow
Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now

Half-wracked prejudice leaped forth, "rip down all hate, " I screamed
Lies that life is black and white spoke from my skull, I dreamed
Romantic facts of musketeers foundationed deep, somehow
Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now

Girls' faces formed the forward path from phony jealousy
To memorizing politics of ancient history
Flung down by corpse evangelists, unthought of, though somehow
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now

A self-ordained professor's tongue too serious to fool
Spouted out that liberty is just equality in school
"Equality, " I spoke the word as if a wedding vow
Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now

In a soldier's stance, I aimed my hand at the mongrel dogs who teach
Fearing not that I'd become my enemy in the instant that I preach
My existence led by confusion boats, mutiny from stern to bow
Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now

Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats too noble to neglect
Deceived me into thinking I had something to protect
Good and bad, I define these terms quite clear, no doubt, somehow
Ah, but I was so much older then I'm younger than that now

 

[lwien]

THAT ^^ is one of my all time favorite songs. Gotta add that to the Music of the 60's and 70's thread.

Thanks for posting that TJ. Brought back tons of memories. I miss that song along with the times that went along with it....(with a bit of a tear in my eye....)

 

[grokit]

what the world needs now
is another frank sinatra
so I can get you in bed

 

[cybrguy]

Donald Trump is a Coward Afraid of Facing Mainstream Voters
by David Atkins
July 30, 2016 4:08 PM

Few people could accuse of Donald Trump of lacking bravado. Whether it’s insulting John McCain for being captured in Vietnam or claiming to have made sacrifices for his country on a par with the parents of soldiers who gave their lives in war, Donald Trump lives in world where his own biography elevates him on a pedestal above all others. Trump believes that he alone can fix what ails the country, seeing himself as more a character in an Ayn Rand novel than a credible political candidate, a modern-day Howard Roark with no talent and even less compassion but an even better developed braggadocio.

Ultimately, however, Donald Trump is a coward. Not just for serving himself at the expense of others even as millions of Americans devoted their lives to causes greater than themselves on the battlefield, in the classroom, at the laboratory table and in the civic engagement hall. He is a coward because he cannot face the reality of what he has done with his life before an audience not prepared to idolize him.

Most people have core driving principles that inspire them to do great things and struggle onward in the face of adversity. For Trump, those principle are narcissism and hedonism. His stingy and selfish money-grabbing, his womanizing, his media attention-seeking, and now his political party-wrecking are all about making himself feel good and getting the maximum amount of attention for it. If Trump were to ever confess his sins, one could imagine him doing so with jaunty pride like Game of Thrones’ Cersei Lannister wine-boarding a nun: “I did it because it felt good.”

Trump’s outrageous insult to Khizr Khan, the father of a deceased veteran, falls into the same category. A normal person would be sympathetic to the Khans’ loss and appreciative of their service to the country, even if they disagreed with them politically. A humbler politician would have thanked the Khans and their son for their service to the country, then explained why his own policies would in theory benefit the country their son died to protect. A less narcissistic person would have had the moral courage to admit that he had not made personal sacrifices on the level of the Khans, but that he had spent his life trying to make the world a better place and would continue to do so as President.

But not Donald Trump. Donald Trump doesn’t have the courage to be humble, nor does he have the life resume to even make a humble response possible. Because whatever Donald Trump has done with his life, it isn’t to make the world a better place. Even Karl Rove and Frank Luntz could reasonably claim to have spent their lives in the service of philosophical ideals and a vision of the world they believe in. But not Donald Trump. He lives only for himself.

That ethic can pass muster and win the day among the small sliver of Republican voters steeped in a venomous stew of prosperity gospel theology, objectivist philosophy and eliminationist politics. But it cannot work in a general election where voters expect more than raw greed and bigoted anger. To expand beyond his comfort zone would take a courage and openness to personal growth that Donald Trump lacks.

That is why, for all his bravado, Trump is already complaining about his debate schedule with Hillary Clinton–a move that, as we saw in the Republican primary, is a Trump first step to potentially dodging debates altogether. Trump knows that he won’t be able to hold his own against Clinton in front of a national audience, and he’s already laying the groundwork to duck out of one or more of them.

Over the next 100 days before the general election the public will get a chance to see Trump’s real character on display. If they can see past the schoolyard bully bluster, they will see one of the most abhorrent moral cowards to ever grace the campaign trail.

 

[Silat]

To this I say:

what the world needs now
is another folk singer
like I need a hole in my head



We're going to have to disagree on this. When it comes to our psychology, it's all nurture. Unless our genetics are defective in a certain area, they have no bearing on our eventual neural connections.

edit: a quick overview of how this can play out in our politics
- the movie trading places makes a similar point

Well the science shows some differences in the brains of liberals and conservatives. So that is not from nurture.

 

[lwien]

So Khizr Khan stood up while giving a heartfelt speech at the DNC praising his Muslim son who sacrificed his own life to save the lives of his fellow soldiers and said to Donald Trump, "YOU have sacrificed nothing. YOU have sacrificed no one."

And Trumps response in an ABC interview:
"I think I've made a lot of sacrifices. I work very, very hard."

 

[MinnBobber]

I'm an independent and greatly dislike both candidates but did folks catch Trump's response to Hillary saying he does not have the temperament to be Prez?
He could not leave it at....I have a fine temp or great temp for Prez. He just had to say that in fact, he had the best temp for Prez of anybody that has ever run!!!!

He just takes the bait and has to go to the bizarre extreme.

 

[cybrguy]

That is part of why this whole thing is so stunning to me. He takes the bait every time. He is incapable of resisting. He looks just like he really is over and over. He is practically the devil himself.

And yet he still has this following that just doesn't seem to care.

Are they all in a trance or what?

 

[grokit]

Well the science shows some differences in the brains of liberals and conservatives. So that is not from nurture.

It's not instinctual, it's learned. Most neural pathways and connections develop after the brain develops its initial cognitive functions, which is after the person has been born. This science is firmly in place.

 

[lwien]

It's not instinctual, it's learned. Most neural pathways and connections develop after the brain develops its initial cognitive functions, which is after the person has been born. This science is firmly in place.

I can bring up countless studies that indicate that genetics plays a VERY big role in our personality traits. You may be able to bring up studies that show just the opposite.

My take is that both genetics AND environment do their dance to shape us into who we are.

I don't believe that the science is firmly in place to dispute the impact of the genetic roll in all of this, but like I said, you may be able to bring up studies that refute this as I can bring up studies to support it and so, from my perspective, the science is NOT firmly in place.

There's a whole field study on this called Behavioral Genetics. It's a pretty interesting topic that we're learning about more and more every day.

 

[gangababa]

Hit send too soon, so scrapped beginning of long winded observation about nature and nurture and reincarnation; but nothing answers for me the question of moral cognitive dissonance in Trump supporters who are parents not wanting to raise bullies, any Christian church going anyone, a person who simply respects the truth of the "I" behind all eyes.

Trump suggesting letting Russia have the Crimea, Trump suggesting we would not honor NATO treaty to protect the Baltic countries against Russian aggression, sounds like Chamberlain level appeasement to me.

So many Trump supporting talking heads seem to me to be saying, "situational ethics" requires that we be nasty, mean, petty, brutish, evil as the enemy. This from the never-right-minded who long have long railed at liberals for not being moral absolutists.

 

[grokit]

There's a whole field study on this called Behavioral Genetics. It's a pretty interesting topic that we're learning about more and more every day.

From what I can tell it sprung up in order to try and revive the discredited science of eugenics, and has itself been disproven by many, including the founder of behavioral genetics himself, albeit a little later in life.

From a recent overview in scientific american:

"The field... has a horrendous track record. My concerns about the potential for abuse of behavioral genetics are directly related to its history of widely publicized, erroneous claims."​

Also check out "The End of Behavioral Genetics?"
from the
US National Library of Medicine, National Institutes of Health (NCBI)

You're right, lots of great links!

 

[yogoshio]

@grokit hit the nail on the head with reviving eugenics.

For everyone making the Trump=Hitler, think back on how you have just argued about the fact that those who think differently from you have something genetically defective or inherently negative that needs addressing.

 

[lwien]

From what I can tell it sprung up in order to try and revive the discredited science of eugenics, and has itself been disproven by many, including the founder of behavioral genetics himself, albeit a little later in life.

From a recent overview in scientific american:

"The field... has a horrendous track record. My concerns about the potential for abuse of behavioral genetics are directly related to its history of widely publicized, erroneous claims."​

Also check out "The End of Behavioral Genetics?"
from the
US National Library of Medicine, National Institutes of Health (NCBI)

You're right, lots of great links!

Grok, like I said, I could also post up very impressive links that support the idea of how genetics plays a very important roll but I think we may be taking this thread way off topic. So if you want to start another thread on this subject, I will happily engage but for now, maybe we may just want to get back to the election, eh?

 

[gangababa]

...
For everyone making the Trump=Hitler, think back on how you have just argued ...

I can certainly equate the present and the past, the Hitler-Trump-these times similarities. History doesn't repeat itself, however present can echo the past.

I don't disparage the Germans who voted for Hitler. They were duped and the reality is that Hitler's insanity trumped the expectations of the supportive populace.

Fear and anger are terrible platforms from which to make wise judgements.

 

[cybrguy]

Fear and anger are terrible platforms from which to make wise judgements.

I like that.

 

[gangababa]

RedState.com has become a good source for progressives to link to right-wing admissions of truth when communicating with contrary cousins.
This right-wing blog is in pendulum-mode, swinging between conservative conformity and outrage over their Trumpish choice.
End of ganga baba spin

Did Donald Trump Just Break the Law and Reveal Classified Intelligence?

"It all started with a reporter's tweet...

Trump is now complaining "we pay rent for our base to Saudi Arabia"

— Ben Jacobs (@Bencjacobs) July 29, 2016

Oh?

If there is now a US military base in Saudi, it is classified and mentioning it should have legal consequences. https://t.co/LgEeMXkV7M

— Yaroslav Trofimov (@yarotrof) July 29, 2016

...Oh. Uh oh.

@_DanMangan @yarotrof @Bencjacobs If he signed the secrecy agreement already as part of getting the briefing, he could be prosecuted.

— Bradley P. Moss, Esq (@BradMossEsq) July 30, 2016

D'oh."

"the Internet was abuzz last night at the prospect that Donald Trump potentially revealed the existence of a U.S. base in Saudi Arabia... Which is a very, very, very bad thing. We know this is a very, very, very bad thing because violating the "classified" part of "classified intelligence" is exactly why everyone is angry at the existence of Hillary Clinton's e-mail server AND why everyone (including him!!!) is so upset the FBI didn't recommend charges."

 

[Silat]

It's not instinctual, it's learned. Most neural pathways and connections develop after the brain develops its initial cognitive functions, which is after the person has been born. This science is firmly in place.

Actually the recent studies suggest it is hardwired.

 

[grokit]

Actually the recent studies suggest it is hardwired.

Over the past 25 years or so, gene-whizzers have discovered "genes for" high IQ, gambling, attention-deficit disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, autism, dyslexia, alcoholism, heroin addiction, extroversion, introversion, anxiety, anorexia nervosa, seasonal affective disorder, violent aggression—and so on. So far, not one of these claims has been consistently confirmed by follow-up studies.

 

[CarolKing]

Getting back to the election.....
A good article.
Donald Trump and Russia: a web that grows more tangled all the time | US news | The Guardian
The Guardian › US News › Donald Trump

 

[TeeJay1952]

A Republican Speaks!
https://medium.com/@ccmccain/for-th...ump-means-im-with-her-10321e751c6d#.3y5atj4t6

 

[ClearBlueLou]

Technically my presidential election is over in which the residents of this state will decide that my vote will be cast for Donald J. Trump whether I like it or not. I absolutely hate the electoral college and because of it my vote for president has not counted in over three decades.

I think that we have reached a point in our society where the president should be elected strictly by popular vote. We can do better in making the presidential race truly democratic where each person has one vote that counts. America needs to do away with this republics middleman, the electoral college, because we do not need a middleman anymore.

I understand your sentiments, having spent most of my life in the Old Confederacy; because I have, I can tell you that the electoral college is inextricably mired in the "sovereign state" notions which preceded the rebellion and have hardened since. Even though the Rebellion was about slavery and not about sovereignty - and even though the South's surrender should have put state sovereignty outside of serious debate in Federal proceedings - sovereignty remains a real dog-in-the-manger issue, currently incarnated as the "10th Amendment recourse" of 'States' Rights', supposedly limiting the government to 18th century realities, practices and strategies.

Since the essential strategy driving the Tenthers, States-Righters and so-called conservative wing is to frankly AVOID making exactly that sort of compromise with the rest of the country, we're going to have to deal, ultimately, with basic issues like freedom and slavery before we'll ever be able to muster a free-standing argument for direct popular election of the President - and I think that's something we need.

=====

It has been my observation that at their very basic core, one of the primary differences between the mindsets of liberals and conservatives is that conservatives see the world in black an white while liberals see the world in shades of gray, therefore, for conservatives, there is no middle ground while liberals see a wide swath of gray between black and white. It's this difference that makes it seem like we are talking two different languages.

And, btw, this world view goes wayyyy beyond politics. It's almost as if our brains are wired differently and I think it has just as much to do with genetics, much like any personality trait does, as it has to do with what we're exposed to.

I completely agree: it is quite literally, black and white: "conservative" opposition to practically everything has its roots in the era of plantations and slavery. Strip away the "plausible deniability" and virtually every "conservative" issue or preference is intended to maintain the continuity of white rule, to limit the advantages of freedom from accruing to the freed slaves (even now, 150 years on), and to preserve the power and influence of the plantation system, the planters and their philosophical and political heirs, and their cultural successors.

The only place I disagree is w/ the idea that there's a genetic component: mostly because, having grown up with the brainwashing and cultural dominance that goes hand-in-hand with real old-fashioned racism, I know that generations of people in shacks and trailers have been taught from birth that they're a wronged and disgraced aristocracy that will endure the shame and one day raise up to take it all back: even without genetics, that's bone deep by voting age, and largely unquestionable. Impervious to differing points of view, indifferent to fairness arguments of all types.

The genetic thing is an interesting question & we may figure it, I just wonder if knowing would make any difference.

=====

A worldview guided by faith based fundamentalism and nationalistic perspectives do not allow for compromise by their nature.

It *IS* what's wrong with 'identity politics', but there's books still to be written about the true nature and value of "tribalism", so I won't pretend to do more than recognize from a distance that self-unawareness never helps anything

====

Well the science shows some differences in the brains of liberals and conservatives. So that is not from nurture.

As I understand it the neurology is reflective, not determinative: the brain is plastic to a degree, in that like muscles and other organs, it is modified by use. I therefore disagree: these differences you mention ARE the product of nurture, and self-actualization

 

[lwien]

Trump just lost his bounce. Clinton up by 6.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-poll-idUSKCN1092M5

And in Pennsylvania, a state that he should win in:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...n-a-big-lead-in-trumps-must-win-pennsylvania/

His last chance at winning the election is now up to the outcome in the debates. I know that there was some talk that he might try to weasel out of those debates but now it looks like he doesn't have a choice but to participate and in that venue, she's gonna push every button that Trump has, and..........he WILL react. This is gonna be fun.......

And now.................THIS:

 

[Gunky]

Khan is magnificent. He boiled down the objections to Donald Trump to a few irrefutable constitutional contradictions. If repubs really cared about fidelity to the constitution, they would withdraw support from Donald Trump until such time as he renounces his unconstitutional views.

I think there is now a pretty good chance that Trump will drop out of the race when he starts polling 15-20 points behind Clinton. Typically in business Trump bails when things start going south but before he himself suffers any losses. I want to see the look on Mitch McConnell's face when that happens. Reince Priebus and Paul Ryan too.

 

[lwien]

Khan is magnificent.

I wonder if he'll ever run for office. He's a great orator who obviously loves this country. I hope he does. We need more like him.