The 2016 Presidential Candidates Thread

[t-dub]

IMO it was inappropriate for Bill to have been talking to Lynch about the case at all.

It was inappropriate for Bill to be talking to Lynch about anything. Doesn't matter what was said, which we don't know anyways. The conversation violated ethical standards regarding the appearance of impropriety and has now cast a shadow over the entire investigation that can probably never be healed. Interesting to note that this happened just days before H was questioned for 3.5 hours by the FBI this morning regarding the criminal investigation into her e-mail server.

 

[grokit]

I liked how bill maher described it,
that hillary had some trouble with her "baggage" at the airport

Also bill interviewed gary johnson, the crowd dug him

 

[Gunky]

The same people now saying it was so terrible for Bill Clinton to pay a half hour social visit to Loretta Lynch the other day thought there was absolutely no impropriety about Dick Cheney taking Antonin Scalia on fancy hunting trips while a case involving Cheney was before the Supreme Court.

 

[cybrguy]

But those are Republicans, Gunky. That's a whole different kettle of fish. They are the "law and order" crowd and can do no wrong, at least in the eyes of their supporters. Scalia and Thomas both had/have no compunction regarding appearances and speaking gigs at Republican/Tea Party events. So much for bothering to look unaffiliated politically. These guys didn't/don't even bother to pretend.

Only Democrats are held to any standards.

Then there is Thomas's wife...
Virginia "Ginni" Lamp Thomas (born February 23, 1957) is an American attorney who is the founder of Liberty Consulting. She had previously founded the conservative advocacy group Liberty Central, and served as its president until its merger with the Patrick Henry Center for Individual Liberty.[1] She is a columnist for The Daily Caller, and previously worked at The Heritage Foundation. She is the wife of U.S. Supreme Court Associate Justice Clarence Thomas, and her lobbying activities have occasionally been raised as a conflict of interest source for her husband.

 

[grokit]

If true, this pretty much explains everything

edit: except for wtf they were actually talking about


EXCLUSIVE:
Security Source Details Bill Clinton Maneuver to Meet Loretta Lynch
Former president delayed Phoenix takeoff to snare '20-25 minute encounter' with Attorney General

An exclusive interview with a security source who was present at the unplanned meeting Monday night on a Phoenix tarmac between former President Bill Clinton and Attorney General Lorretta Lynch has shed additional light on an unusual summit that is embroiling the AG in charges of favoritism. As attorney general, Lynch heads the Department of Justice just as it is deciding whether to proceed with charges against Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton over her use of a private email server during her tenure as President Obama’s secretary of state.

The source has decades of experience providing security to government officials. The source spoke to the Observer for 20 minutes and answered follow-up questions via text message on the condition that no further details be revealed, including even gender, given the possibility of losing his or her job as an active overseer of security arrangements. This person was on-hand for the entirety of the meeting and some of its aftermath.

According to this source, whose credentials were checked and confirmed by the Observer with sources inside both the FBI and the United States Secret Service, the attorney general was caught completely off guard by the meeting and the source dismisses suggestions that have been raised alleging that she waited there to see Bill Clinton or accommodated his request to see him. In fact, it seems from this source that it was Bill Clinton who was maneuvering for face time with the attorney general, because his plane had been scheduled to leave before hers arrived.

“Fair is fair. I’m a conservative-leaning [person] [gender-identifying word redacted]. I don’t support anything this administration does. I don’t know much about the attorney general’s past, except she has a good reputation. But I really don’t like this executive’s office, so that said, politically, that’s where I’m at. But I just happened to be in a position to know firsthand what went down that day.”

The FBI protects the attorney general and the Secret Service protects POTUS and there are elements from that agency that protect former presidents. According to the source, “The AG and the director each have a protective detail because they travel extensively and that duty falls to the FBI. They have a formalized unit, a detail, that lives and works out of Washington, D.C. Then there will be FBI leaders who are experts in other towns and regions who coordinate visits—someone in Chicago FBI will coordinate with the D.C. detail when the director or the AG comes to Chicago. So what happened here is that the FBI agents in Phoenix were in touch with the detail leaders in D.C. for the AG’s visit. Somebody from D.C. will advance the trip and liaise with the local element, who has a big SWAT team and provide everything they need so they can send only a skeletal unit with her, two people—a medic and protection. They don’t need to commit 27 people. Details include surveilling all the locations, the routes, the hospitals, safe zones; that’s all handled by [the local FBI people] [actual words redacted to avoid identifying source].”

According to the source, the FBI agents protecting Lynch “knew former POTUS was in town and another executive was coming and knew Lynch was coming so we knew there’d be congestion. We were waiting for her plane to touch down at the executive terminal area of Phoenix’s Sky Harbor where it’s best suited to control. Clinton’s plane was on the ground already. But he wasn’t there. We had been hoping to get him out before she arrived, just to avoid too much traffic. They [their planes] were 75 yards apart. We have a procedure we do to clear [space for] a motorcade. As we were ready to receive her, I saw the other motorcade coming in—we were like, ‘great timing.’ ”

The source was being sarcastic in saying “great timing,” indicating that it would have been better logistically for Clinton’s plane to take off before Lynch’s arrived, to avoid the congestion of two motorcades on the tarmac at once. The source indicated that Clinton’s people at the airport didn’t know what was taking Clinton’s motorcade so long to arrive and speculated that the delay was engineered specifically so that Clinton would not have left before Lynch arrived.

“Then I see Clinton walking over. His detail guys ran over to hers and said he’s coming. ‘He’s closing.’ He walked straight there to the Air Force guy at the door and next thing I know he’s going up the steps [of her plane].” Asked about the Air Force detail, the source later clarified to the Observer that “There was an Air Force airman at the base of the stairs of the [Lynch] aircraft, as you always see on TV with POTUS.”

According to the source, “Nobody knew this was coming. We just knew to be aware there were other events going on. There was no planned meeting. It was just chance contact. The fact is, he just started walking over. I don’t think it was pre-arranged. He just started walking over and [even her security] can’t tell him, ‘you can’t do that.’ He walked in her plane for at least 20 to 25 minutes and the FBI is standing face to face with the Secret Service and just chatting on the hot tarmac like, ‘what the hell.’ ”

Regarding the reaction and its aftermath, the source told the Observer, “I didn’t think of the political ramifications, just the timing, ’cause we had other things to do. He [Clinton] came off and shook the hands of the heads of Lynch’s detail. Then her detail finally got her off the plane, now much delayed, and departed for her day’s events. She had a series of visits planned for Tuesday.”

The source said that the impromptu visit made an immediate impression upon Lynch’s staff (meaning her non-security personnel).

“I don’t agree with her politics and all that, but I knew from the beginning that she got caught off guard and her staff was already talking about it that it’s going to be a political problem for her. Her staff was flipping out. We didn’t think about the political part until we saw her staff flipping out. For the security guys, it was more of a ‘I’ve got armed guys coming into my perimeter’ problem. But the staff guys saw right away that it was a political problem. After Clinton got off, they were like, ‘that wasn’t good.’ And I know from others who were in the actual car with her that her people knew immediately the political ramifications of it and were very upset.”

The meeting has indeed turned into a political firestorm for the attorney general, with President Obama’s press secretary, Josh Earnest, declining to say whether the interaction between the powerful husband of a person being investigated and the attorney general was appropriate. In a sit-down with The Washington Post‘s Jonathan Capehart in Aspen, Colo., earlier this morning, the columnist grilled her about the meeting: “What on Earth were you thinking?” he asked her, in an otherwise very friendly interview.

http://observer.com/2016/07/exclusi...-bill-clinton-maneuver-to-meet-loretta-lynch/

 

[HellsWindStaff]

Seems like he manuveured to talk to her but still would be interested in hearing what was said....

I've actually not really seen this as a huge issue so far..... Surprisingly I'm sure. It's unethical and was a dumb move because people will pounce on it but stuff like this happens all time with both parties so for reds to focus hard on it would be a dumb idea IMO because two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[cybrguy]

Like I said before, I would bet it was entirely social, but we will never know. There are just so many obviously better ways to have a private chat that neither of them, even Bill <g> would act so brazenly if they thought they were doing anything wrong. I think it was just Bill being Bill, and not thinking of the optics.

But, being a fan of both Bill and Hillary, what I think obviously matters not a whit...

 

[lwien]

Umm............Bill doesn't seem to be on top of his game lately. Not only is he looking really gaunt but in listening to some of his interviews, he seems to be a bit slow on the uptake which could have been caused by his heart condition and subsequent surgery which could negatively affect his mental acuity. Could help to explain his lack of judgement on this issue, eh?

 

[cybrguy]

I have been wondering the same thing. He hasn't looked good, and for the sharp guy he is he isn't always (or seems not to be always) tracking well in exchanges.

I hope he isn't in decline. But if he is, I think Hillary might want to think about benching him until he is really needed...

As some of us know, getting older has some very noticeable effects on our mental acuity and physical durability. And campaigning can be terribly exhausting ...

And, after all, he has serious grandfathering duties ahead.

 

[lwien]

As some of us know, getting older has some very noticeable effects on our mental acuity and physical durability. And campaigning can be terribly exhausting ...

At 69 though, it typically shouldn't be this noticeable. I think it may have more to do with his cardiac episode since before then, he was really on top of his game but hasn't been the same since that health issue started.

The other thing that could be happening here may have to do with what medication that he is on.

One thing for sure though. He's not the same Bill Clinton that he was.

But in regards to Hillary benching him, I think that's much easier said than done.

Edit: It's stuff like this that keeps me motivated to lace up my running shoes and eat lots of salads. Gotta play the odds....

 

[cybrguy]

But in regards to Hillary benching him, I think that's much easier said than done.

I have no doubt of that. But, it IS her campaign and he knows that. There is a lot he can do to help her without jetting all over the place. If enough folks tell her (and him) that on the trail he is hurting rather than helping...

We'll just have to see how this goes. I still think she is getting a net positive from his efforts, but stuff like this can do serious damage...

 

[Snappo]

EVERYTHING that Bubba does has calculation and motive I believe. Even if his overwhelming impulse was only to foist his fondness on the unwitting Lynch, he had to at least figure that a special unplanned visit would warm the cockles in each of their hearts, and what could be wrong with that...

While at the supermarket, for example, I sometimes opt to approach a friend or past acquaintance that I hadn't seen in a while just to catch up and let them know they're still fondly in my thoughts... sometimes, in spite of my fondness, I opt not to for reasons of time or not wanting to get into a protracted conversation in the center isle. A mental decline on Bubba's part may explain his acquiescence to an impulse that failed to consider broader ramifications - and after all - He's Bubba, and for hardly any other reason but for the simple fact that he can, he did.

 

[cybrguy]

I pretty much agree with all of that post other than the first line. Yes, Bill can be incredibly calculating (as most great minds can/are capable of) but I also believe he can be very authentic. I have seen him display both, on stage and on TV.

There aren't very many people who have lied right to my face (I didn't have...) that I can still admire. Bill is one of a very small group.

Maybe that has to do with the fact that I might have told that same lie under different circumstances...

 

[Snappo]

I pretty much agree with all of that post other than the first line. Yes, Bill can be incredibly calculating (as most great minds can/are capable of) but I also believe he can be very authentic. I have seen him display both, on stage and on TV.

There aren't very many people who have lied right to my face (I didn't have...) that I can still admire. Bill is one of a very small group.

Maybe that has to do with the fact that I might have told that same lie under different circumstances...

The airport encounter that very well may have started out as chance-impromptu/dumb luck, what have you, gave way in happy-go-lucky Bill's mind to an opportunistic well-timed calculation enabling their intersection in pre flight-line traffic. He didn't just bump into her in the grocery store isle and crash her privacy by accident - it had to take some degree of calculation on his part to make it all come together and make himself welcomed, IMO. He probably wasn't originally on a hunt, but once Lynch came into view, he set his sights on the target and took his shot...

 

[cybrguy]

Christie and Putin: Trump’s Narcissistic Suppliers
by Martin Longman
July 3, 2016 12:36 PM

As Steve M. reminds us, Gov. Chris Christie has a 26% approval rating in New Jersey, and that means that he’d actively harm Trump’s chances of winning the Garden State if he were to join his ticket. It’s possible that Trump doesn’t know this, but it’s as close to an iron-clad fact as you can find in politics. The people of New Jersey are totally over Chris Christie and have far less than zero interest in pushing him onto the national stage for the next four to eight years.

Yet, Chistie is still the state’s governor, which is the problem, and which also creates a conflict with the other duties he’s taken on for the real estate bankruptcy expert.

Already, Mr. Christie has begun the task of designing a government on Mr. Trump’s behalf. Tapped to lead Mr. Trump’s transition efforts, Mr. Christie has taken a role that some of his allies liken to that of a White House chief of staff, soliciting views on what a potential Trump administration should look like.

Mr. Christie has taken the transition process firmly in hand, according to people familiar with his activities….​

In addition to serving as a kind of head of transition for a prospective Trump administration and as a de facto chief of staff, Christie is also trying to schmooze big money Republican donors. So far, at least, he seems to be having little success. But, regardless, it’s impossible not to imagine that New Jersey is currently operating with an absentee governor.

Now, Trump seems to suffer from every single subtype of narcissistic personality disorder (I’m not kidding), so he simply doesn’t think like a normal person with good mental health. Steve M. speculates that Trump has taken a shine to Christie because people like to have “a funny fat guy” around, but I personally think he was won over to Christie by watching him dice Marco Rubio like a whitefish.

And it didn’t hurt that Christie endorsed Trump despite the predictable reaction from mainstream Republican elites:

In a clinical sense, Christie thereby provided Trump with narcissistic supply.

The narcissistic manager will have two main sources of narcissistic supply: inanimate (status symbols like cars, gadgets or office views); and animate (flattery and attention from colleagues and subordinates). Teammates may find everyday offers of support swiftly turn them into enabling sources of permanent supply, unless they are very careful to maintain proper boundaries. The narcissistic manager’s need to protect such supply networks will prevent objective decision-making. Such a manager will evaluate long-term strategies according to their potential for gaining personal attention.​

It was evident at the first Trump-Christie joint press conference in Mar-a-Lago that proper boundaries would not be maintained. It was so obvious, actually, that Christie had to hold another press conference back in his home state to assure people that he had not been taken hostage by Donald Trump.

“I want people to know who were concerned I was not being held hostage. I was not thinking ‘oh my God, what I have done.’ I was standing up there supporting the person I believe is the best person to beat Hillary Clinton among the remaining Republican candidates. It’s why I endorsed him.” -Chris Christie, New Jersey press conference on March 2, 2016.​

MORE

 

[cybrguy]

more

Some people think Trump says nice things about Vladimir Putin because he admires him as a strong man, or because he’s long been interested in making real estate deals in Moscow and Azerbaijan. And those could be important factors, but probably the most significant cause of Trump’s pro-Putin behavior is that Putin gave him an injection of narcissistic supply.

“He is a bright and talented person without any doubt,” Putin said, adding that Trump is “an outstanding and talented personality.”

And in remarks closely mirroring Trump’s assessment of the campaign, the Russian leader called Trump “the absolute leader of the presidential race,” according to the Russian TASS news agency.

And you know what happens when you say something just a little nice about a narcissist?

“People with narcissistic personality disorder tend to exaggerate their skills and accomplishments as well as their level of intimacy with people they consider to be high-status.”

“I think he [Russian President Vladimir Putin] said some really nice things. He called me a genius. He said Trump’s a genius. Okay. So, you know, that’s nice.” —Donald Trump, interview with Bill O’Reilly, April 28, 2016​

Actually, Putin didn’t call him a genius. In fact, Putin went out of his way to clarify that he only called him “bright” and not “brilliant.”

But that doesn’t matter to Trump because the most important thing is that someone with high status praised him, and he makes sure to cultivate that kind of person.

It’s a variant on the old saw, “Keep your allies close and keep your ego-strokers closer.”

“Psychologist Heinz Kohut saw those with narcissistic personality disorder as disintegrating mentally when cut off from a regular source of narcissistic supply.”

This is the sense in which Chris Christie makes sense as a running mate for Trump. Even if Christie won’t help him win New Jersey or the Electoral College and therefore the election, he feeds something that Trump requires like the rest of us require oxygen.

And, while Indiana Gov. Mike Pence might have had a warm meeting with Trump “Saturday morning at Trump National Golf Club in Bedminster, N.J.,” I am just not seeing how Pence can fill that same role.

I’m pretty firmly convinced at this point that the best predictor of what Trump will do is to look at what classic narcissists do. As we’ve seen with Trump’s business practices, he is “fraudulent, deceptive, arrogant, and exploitive” in his dealings and routinely engages in “pathological lying and swindling.”

He perfectly fits the definition of an Elitist Narcissist:

Elitist narcissist: Feels privileged and empowered by virtue of special childhood status and pseudo achievements; entitled façade bears little relation to reality; seeks favored and good life; is upwardly mobile; cultivates special status and advantages by association.​

In his dealings with competitors, both business and political, he’s often “callous, brutal, rancorous, aggressive, biting, merciless, vicious, cruel, spiteful; hateful and jealous,” which are all descriptors of a Malignant Narcissist.

He hits all the marks of a Compensatory Narcissist: “Seeks to counteract or cancel out deep feelings of inferiority and lack of self-esteem; offsets deficits by creating illusions of being superior, exceptional, admirable, noteworthy; self-worth results from self-enhancement.” We can see this in how he lies about his Wharton Business degree and constantly assures us that he has one of the highest I.Q. scores.

Even his personal relationships appear narcissistic.

Amorous narcissist: Sexually seductive, enticing, beguiling, tantalizing; glib and clever; disinclines real intimacy; indulges hedonistic desires; bewitches and inveigles others; pathological lying and swindling.​

What Trump does, he does to feed his own demons. Trying to discern some greater strategy (he’s a Democratic plant!) is always going to be fruitless.

It’s possible that he’ll listen to some key advisors and make a veep pick that makes a modicum of sense, but I doubt it. Everything about him suggests that his running mate must fill the role that Christie is already filling quite well.

 

[Snappo]

I pretty much agree with all of that post other than the first line. Yes, Bill can be incredibly calculating (as most great minds can/are capable of) but I also believe he can be very authentic. I have seen him display both, on stage and on TV.

He probably wasn't originally on a hunt, but once Lynch came into view, he set his sights on the target and took his shot, for whatever reason he had... that would be a calculated move...

 

[t-dub]

Look, I love you guys, and as a political atheist I'm neutral. But the rationalizations that I am reading here, that are completely against the law, just astound me. It doesn't matter what was said. Its obvious he made the meeting happen. Bill has already had to surrender his law license in AK and the supreme court disbarred him. He also never tried to reinstate his law license after the 5 years that is was suspended in AK so he is done. Do we not remember this? So I think he has some experience in these types of situations. What he did to Lynch, and I think he may have caught her off guard, was reprehensible. This type of ethical misconduct could ruin her career let alone the shadow it casts across the investigation. If he did barge his way into her private jet, I am just sorry that Lynch didn't have the time, or the guts, to throw him off the plane. This meeting was planned by Bill, not a chance meeting. The appearance of impropriety here has ruined the investigation because when H is cleared there will be people that will say the system is rigged and there will now be no end to it . . . ever.

 

[Silat]

Look, I love you guys, and as a political atheist I'm neutral. But the rationalizations that I am reading here, that are completely against the law, just astound me. It doesn't matter what was said. Its obvious he made the meeting happen. Bill has already had to surrender his law license in AK and the supreme court disbarred him. He also never tried to reinstate his law license after the 5 years that is was suspended in AK so he is done. Do we not remember this? So I think he has some experience in these types of situations. What he did to Lynch, and I think he may have caught her off guard, was reprehensible. This type of ethical misconduct could ruin her career let alone the shadow it casts across the investigation. If he did barge his way into her private jet, I am just sorry that Lynch didn't have the time, or the guts, to throw him off the plane. This meeting was planned by Bill, not a chance meeting. The appearance of impropriety here has ruined the investigation because when H is cleared there will be people that will say the system is rigged and there will now be no end to it . . . ever.

Sorry but his going to chat with his longtime family friend is not reprehensible or illegal in any way. Regardless of what you think facts matter. No laws or regulations were broken. And it was not unethical either by any legal standard.
Now if you have evidence that he discussed any legal matters that included him that she was ruling on then you might have a point.
You think the Clintons arranged for their flight to coincide with Lynch being at the airport? If you do I have oceanfront in Nevada to sell you.

But I recommend you do not buy the lots I have to sell you as we both know that Oregon is the place to be

 

[t-dub]

Sorry but his going to chat with his longtime family friend is not reprehensible or illegal in any way.

No laws or regulations were broken.

Bullshit. It was illegal. No doubt about it. You are just so far in the tank you can't see the fact that the conversation, no matter what was said, violated the ethical rules of conduct, specifically rule 14, specified in the Justice Department's ethical guidelines. If you had read them, and my previous post, you would understand this. Do not attempt to patronize me. Its obvious from the record that Bill made this meeting happen and you are willing to rationalize anything they do.

Edit: Changed the word state to justice to make right the department I was speaking about. The fact that Gunky clings to this error just shows how far in the tank he is, he knew what I meant.

 

[Gunky]

Bullshit. It was illegal. No doubt about it. You are just so far in the tank you can't see the fact that the conversation, no matter what was said, violated the ethical rules of conduct, specifically rule 14, specified in the State Department's ethical guidelines. If you had read them, and my previous post, you would understand this. Do not attempt to patronize me. Its obvious from the record that Bill made this meeting happen and you are willing to rationalize anything they do.

State Department ethical guidelines? Neither participant works in or for the State Department. And number 14 is just some boilerplate about avoiding the appearance of impropriety. This is stupid. He could have called her on the phone or had a surrogate done so if his aim were to influence her decision-making about the email matter.

 

[t-dub]

State Department ethical guidelines?

It was the Department of Justice Ethical Guidelines, you are correct, I misspoke there. However it doesn't change a thing.

Here is the link if you want to read them for yourself, like I did. Department's Ethics Handbook

This is stupid.

No its not, its serious shit. Every lawyer knows this.

He could have called her on the phone or had a surrogate done so if his aim were to influence her decision-making about the email matter.

Not necessarily, this has been discusses already in this thread. Phones are unsecure and surrogates even worse.

 

[grokit]

I would love to bury the clintons as much as the next muckraker, but there is a huge difference between guidelines and regulations. The former results in a damaged reputation, the latter actual punishment.

 

[Gunky]

It was the Department of Justice Ethical Guidelines, you are correct, I misspoke there. However it doesn't change a thing.

Here is the link if you want to read them for yourself, like I did. Department's Ethics Handbook

No its not, its serious shit. Every lawyer knows this.

Ethical guidelines do not equal laws. Breaking an ethical guideline is not the same as breaking a law. That would be where the 'guideline' part comes in. It doesn't apply to him and I don't think she broke the guideline anyway. She had a harmless social meeting with a former president. He appears to have shown up unannounced and surprised her and the fact that she didn't send our former president packing when he showed up does not bother me. Why should I assume she would be unduly influenced by Bill Clinton?

 

[t-dub]

I'm not trying to bury anyone here, however @Gunky you obviously do not understand how the law works. If your spouse is under investigation, by the FBI no less, you just can't go and "chat up" the AG. And it doesn't matter what was said. They could have talked about nothing however the ethical guidelines, which all attorneys know because they apply to all situations, simply state that you can not do this and people have been disbarred for doing so. This is a basic rule of law that all lawyers understand. So guess what . . . there ARE rules of law against these things.