THC & CBN's, What About The "Extraction Process"?

stinkmeaner

Well-Known Member
I feel that there is not an exact temperature which will release the active ingredients of marijuana because there would still be too many variables when dealing with the natural substance that is Cannabis. They may highlight a "boiling point", but what about something that is hardly mentioned: "Extraction"?

I think future vaporizer models should focus on ways to optimize the actual extraction process.

Think of your herb as a "wet rag". Then compare vaporizing to the process of "wringing out" that wet rag. The "water" will represent the THC and of you think about it, there is no way for you to get the water out all at once or completely for that matter, when you wring it out.
I actually laugh when people talk about specific temperatures, as if the THC & CBN's are just going to magically release at an exact temperature, if they new anything about chemistry or the Biology of plants then they would see this all differently and realize that it isn't so cut and dry.

I wrote this article mainly as a rebuttal to the threads that focus on "specific temperatures" with the idea of releasing "specific ingredients". What triggered it was because I sent one of my close friends here (F.C.) to read up on vaporizing. When she arrived, she stumbled upon some of the CBN/THC threads and reported back to me with the opinion that vaporizing is "too complicated" for her and even started questioning my Volcano Classic's ability to properly release THC or provide "healthy vapor" because it has no temperature display. I told her not to be discouraged because these studies that everyone is talking about are controlled lab studies and to vaporize at home you don't have to be so technical.

First and foremost Cannabis is just an herb, an herb which people have been smoking for thousands of years, so in my opinion it shouldn't be that complicated. Most of us chose vaping as a healthy alternative to smoking and as long as you are not burning or scorching your herb in my eyes you are in pretty good shape, light-years ahead of the guy, the person we all know at least one of, the one of with that hacking cough because he smokes two packs of cigarettes a day, same guy that will drive around a parking lot for 10 minutes looking for a close spot because he starts wheezing if he walks for than 20 meters.

Last I checked we are all using it for pretty much the same reasons, whether its for the "High", or for "Pain Relief", either way just go with what feels right. When you begin vaporizing, monitor how you feel and when you achieved the effects you are looking for, then stop. If you need a little more, then use more, if you get to "couch-locked" go with a lower temperature next time around. If you like a "head-high" then keep the temps on the lower end of the spectrum, if you like a "couch-lock" then go a little higher, but don't get so technical with it.


Even if studies suggest the THC is released at X temperature, there is still a matter of "extraction", it isn't like you just set it to that temperature and all of the THC is automatically released into the air. Not to mention the fact they use specific equipment in those experiments, you would have to factor in the method they used if you expect similar results, then you would have to vaporize with the exact equipment. I have a feeling that many people are reading these studies and then turning on their Herbal Aire or Volcano to X temperature with the notion that they are reproducing these experiments. You would have to factor in all of the variables, some of which are: Air Flow, Herb Strain, Grow Time of the Herb, Moisture Content of the Herb, Ambient Room Temperature, Humidity, Water Volume (if using a waterpipe), Air Volume (if using a waterpipe), Air Speed. Without these factors, you are going to be further off base than you think, especially given the inconsistent temperature readings that vaporizers offer.

Heating Time is also an essential variable. How long do you apply the heat to the herb? Because even if a study suggests that THC is released at X temperature, heating time will alter the results immensely. Think of the Log Vapes, they run at a low, set temperature and they achieve good extraction at these low temperatures in part due to the time in which they are exposed to the heat, even though the temperature is low, you can get the herb pretty damn dark. The combination of restricted air flow and the time the herb is exposed to this temperature, makes for some pretty well extracted herb at fairly low temperatures. If you think you need a specific amount of THC then you are in the wrong place and should probably look towards actual dosed medicine, i.e.: Marinol.

If you made it to the end of this writeup then I humbly thank you, I may have many gifts, but writing wasn't one of them.
 
stinkmeaner,

rabblerouser

Combustion Fucker
I've wondered about some of this too,

my related question is what is the temperature that the "shell" of the trichome bursts at first off, or are we getting some stuff even before that?

or am i even picturing it wrong, does it burst or more just melt? most or all of what we want is in the trichomes right? so how does it actually get out?
 
rabblerouser,

Hippie Dickie

The Herbal Cube
Manufacturer
it looks to me (at 100x) that the trichome melts (it has been described as "waxy") -- after which (i assume) the hot air vaporizes the goo inside (i.e. the THC). And, yes, most of the THC is in the trichomes.

If the trichome is going to burst i think the goo would have to flash to steam.

"Wringing out the THC", a physical process, seems to me like the wrong metaphor for heat extraction, a chemical process.

this is why i particularly like the "oven" concept of the Bud Toaster where the bud sits in a heat tunnel while waiting for the hot air to liberate the THC.
 
Hippie Dickie,

stinkmeaner

Well-Known Member
Hippie Dickie said:
"Wringing out the THC", a physical process, seems to me like the wrong metaphor for heat extraction, a chemical process.

It is a perfectly logical metaphor to me, I only used it to explain the fact that just like wringing out a wet rag, we have no way of getting all of the THC out of the herb at once or completely, you don't have to read into it too much, just a brainstorm if anything. When you wring a rag water comes out rapidly and then slows down, just like a fresh bowl on an average vaporizer, lots of vapor in the first hits and less to very little in the following hits, you really can't get that last bit of moisture out of the rag.

I am not convinced that vapor "flash to steam" as you suggested, because even if it did flash, without the proper extraction or pressure, some of it might, but then what is stopping the vapor from resonating directly on the surrounding herb before it reaches the air stream, or the bowl chamber walls, especially when the herb is in the middle of a packed bowl. My point is that if someone took a scientific approach to vaporizer construction then you would at least know that it is designed for optimal vapor delivery.

I think future vaporizer models might focus on different ways to apply pressure to the heated herb in order to release the THC into the air. This would require more equipment & a lab setting, something that it is safe to assume no vaporizer company currently has (to my knowledge).

It would be comforting to know a company has taken a scientific approach, measuring vapor & THC density, find the best size tubing for the whip, the perfect size herb chamber. I know current companies probably use trial and error and use visual vapor as a sign if they are on the right track, but I would think it best to measure the actual THC content of the vapor to see if the vaporizer is efficiently extracting the herb rather than just assuming their device is good because it makes clouds of vapor.
 
stinkmeaner,

luchiano

Well-Known Member
I understand where you're coming from but having a digital readout is good when you know a good amount of the variables and like to know what temperature gets you where you want to be. Without one you will be guessing and that takes time which will kill the thrill if you have to do it too many times.

Also, if vaporizers get too complicated with pressure indicators and other things inside them, I think vaporizing will actually be less popular than it is now because there will be too many things you will have to look at to make it work properly and if one thing goes wrong, your money goes down the drain. This is why smoking is still so popular, it needs very few things to make it work and you won't have to do a lot of upkeep besides cleaning and have a good lighter. Vaporizers cost a lot more which isn't bad if everything stays working BUT we know a lot of times the heating elements go bad and you have to send them back to the company to fix. What if down the line the company isn't in existence anymore, you just wasted your money. Even if they are still in business you have to wait for them to fix it to get blazed again and if this problem keeps happening, eventually you will not want to keep the process up and in turn vaping gets a bad image.

If vaporizers get too technical, and have too many types of heating elements and other pieces that can go wrong easily and not quickly fixed I think people will start learning more on how to eat herb and make that efficient because it's the best method for health and affects if you know how to cook with the herb because it fulfills all your needs such as full stomach, long high, and still saves weed.

Vaporizers need to go the route that hippie dickie is doing which is to use a programed chip to display and keep temperatures because at least it will allow people to work their needs faster, companies can let us know what strains give certain results when vaped at certain temperatures, or you can mix different herbs that give certain affects when heated to a certain temperature and they can inhale at a moderate to slow speed and the temperature stays in the same area and the vape is small to medium size. This makes them feel like their actually putting their money into something instead of looks and name brand or something too technical that spoils the fun or can breakdown and make you lose your money.
 
luchiano,

stonemonkey55

Chief Vapor Officer
Manufacturer
Very interesting read, good way to jump start the old noodle for the new year. Thanks stinkmeaner.
 
stonemonkey55,

stinkmeaner

Well-Known Member
I don't mean to complicate the vaporizer itself with pressure indicators, etc. I meant use these things while building/designing the actual vaporizer to determine optimal extraction. Current vaporizers are constructed much simpler than most would assume, if bigger companies stepped in with high dollars for R&D then there would be far more efficient products on the market. No companies that I know of have tested their vapor production, fine tuning it for optimal THC release.

One idea I had was maybe a ramping heat cycle. Little changes can have drastic effects on vaporizers, I drilled out the stem on my Herbal Aire the other day and now when I use it in whip mode the hits are far thicker, I feel this is due to the larger volume of air that I am able to move with less effort.
 
stinkmeaner,

stickstones

Vapor concierge
the Ion is great for this and eliminates many of the vaporizer's variables in the process.
 
stickstones,

notmyrealUSERname

Notmy Well-Known Member
One idea I had was maybe a ramping heat cycle. Little changes can have drastic effects on vaporizers, I drilled out the stem on my Herbal Aire the other day and now when I use it in whip mode the hits are far thicker, I feel this is due to the larger volume of air that I am able to move with less effort.

What about Vapes like the verdamper and even the vxc rain? It seems to me that when the airflow is 'restricted' (by putting your hand on it), it produces thicker vapor. my theory As to why that happens is because your hand is restricting the airflow, it allows the temp in the bowl to spike, because theres less airflow 'cooling' the heater. generally higher temps produce thicker vapor.

I heard that if you 'feather' the hole on the ha you can produce the same results.
 
notmyrealUSERname,

Hippie Dickie

The Herbal Cube
Manufacturer
restricting the air flow might cause a partial pressure drop in the bowl, which could lower the vaporization temp just a smidge or give the thicker vapor room to expand.

i have more holes removing vapor than allow incoming air - but it's probably too small of an effect.
 
Hippie Dickie,

stinkmeaner

Well-Known Member
notmyrealUSERname said:
One idea I had was maybe a ramping heat cycle. Little changes can have drastic effects on vaporizers, I drilled out the stem on my Herbal Aire the other day and now when I use it in whip mode the hits are far thicker, I feel this is due to the larger volume of air that I am able to move with less effort.

What about Vapes like the verdamper and even the vxc rain? It seems to me that when the airflow is 'restricted' (by putting your hand on it), it produces thicker vapor. my theory As to why that happens is because your hand is restricting the airflow, it allows the temp in the bowl to spike, because theres less airflow 'cooling' the heater. generally higher temps produce thicker vapor.

I heard that if you 'feather' the hole on the ha you can produce the same results.

I see what you mean, it appears when you cover these vapes that it might cause a more concentrated stream of forced air to penetrate the herbal material. Of course it spikes the temperature like you said too. As you can imagine these vapes were designed by ordinary people and not a scientist with equipment to measure the pressure nor the vapor THC content, I guess what I am saying is that with the right equipment it is possible to measure the THC content & pressure to find the optimal combination for optimal extraction.
 
stinkmeaner,

IAmKrazy2

Darth Vapor
"Wringing out the THC", a physical process, seems to me like the wrong metaphor for heat extraction, a chemical process.

this is why i particularly like the "oven" concept of the Bud Toaster where the bud sits in a heat tunnel while waiting for the hot air to liberate the THC.

agreed.

restricting the air flow might cause a partial pressure drop in the bowl, which could lower the vaporization temp just a smidge or give the thicker vapor room to expand.

i have more holes removing vapor than allow incoming air - but it's probably too small of an effect.

also agreed.

my :2c:

Temperature of extraction varies slightly from strain to strain, but other factors like dryness, surface area, and method of delivery seem to be more important to extraction temp. The key factor to note in my opinion, is that no vaporizer has a heat sensor directly inside the herb being vaporized, so exact temperature of the herb being vaporized is hard to determine. But as long as temp gauge is accurate, with guess and check, i am able to stay in a low comfortable vapor temp range with any vaporizer i use. Exact temperature on a given vaporizer is relatively irrelevant to me, i just want to take fat low temp vrips off it, at a consistent temperature that i like, in an easy and manageable fashion.
 
IAmKrazy2,

hereatlast

Well-Known Member
Interesting topic and discussion stinkmeaner; I think you definitely raise some good and relevant questions. I apologize in advance but your topic got me rambling, if nothing else maybe this post will act as a collection of a couple relevant sources.

Sorry for the total scatter of thoughts but I think they're mostly relevant.

Pre-heat? What's actually happening in their?

I wonder if someone can provide some more-than-anecdotal evidence of the benefits of a pre-heat? It makes total sense to me, and pragmatically I know that a preheat is to some degree necessary to achieve the results I'm after (using the PD and Extreme v.3, and preheat of the herb not the vaporizing unit though that's obviously a prerequisite). Also, it makes sense logically to me that the trichome heads would get waxy before letting their goodies out but I've obviously never seen it happen.
In essence then, I guess I'm still not completely sure on what the vaporizing process looks like: I'm sure we've all seen the photos of pre-vaped and post-vaped materials.
I wonder though, do those "glandular trichomes" burst and turn to droplets, vapor? Do they slowly wither off trailing vapor, leaving partially intact glands? Melt? Obviously its a continuous process but I can't quite conceptualize it in my head. (the same question you seem to be posting rabblerouser) Any help?
The most specific discussion of it in a journal entry etc. I've seen (haven't read too many TBH) says,
"the resin has evaporated and trichomes have withered, while the under-
lying vegetative matter remains intact. " (p.23 for reference; nothing new, just for ref.)
quoted from an oft-cited Gieringer, St. Laurent, and Goodrich study (URL BELOW)
http://www.maps.org/mmj/Gieringer-vaporizer.pdf


That doesn't give much in the way of what the actual process looks like. Also, I wonder what different temperatures have an effect on the physical properties of the 'melting/boiling/vaporizing' process, i.e. does a lower temperature achieve a less violent or different process of boiling/vaporizing? Does a lower temp. target a different part of the 'glandular trichomes'? In essence, this must be case if these 'resinous glands' are containing all the active ingredients, i.e. the ingredients that boil off at 157 vs. 130 vs. 177 etc. are all in the same gland. Another question then, if each 'gland' or 'trichome' is made up of a significant tandem of compounds that boil at distinct temperatures, then what happens when just enough heat is applied to boil off only the lowest-temp. compounds? Physically, how does the gland retain its shape etc. when the low-temp. compounds boil off? Do they just wither down, I wonder if some of the cannabinoids and other compounds are corrupted or altered before their respective boiling points?

For example, what's happening to the THC molecules when just below the threshold for boiling temperatures are present? If THC supposedly boils at 157 degrees C., what's happening at 135-156 degrees for instance?


Actuality of Targeting Specific Compounds?
To jump topics a little: I completely agree that there exists a misconception about the specificity of the chemicals released when we're vaping, it's surely not the case that the herbal product will release single or focused cannabinoid(s) at a "[magical] exact temperature." As amazing as vaporizing is, I think we (vaporists) tend to give the targeting of specific compounds a little too much credence in general; further, its obviously not so easy to dial directly into the temps. we're told are the best.

While the famous and oft-posted 'cannabinoid temperature charts' certainly offer valuable information, it seems that a consistent misinterpretation or at least unfair or oversimplified contextualization of the information is taking place. Its great to know that THC boils at 157 deg. C for instance, it seems naive to assume that that's all we're getting at those temps though:
Just to throw out an example to demonstrate the complexity of the compounds: limonene represents a very specific terpenoid that may be present in a particle sample and/or strain of MJ: "Vaporizer technology may improve the bioavailability of limonene and other compounds, which volatilize around the same temperature as THC," (limonene apparenty has a boiling temp. of 177 deg. C; URL OF STUDY: http://www.cannabis-med.org/data/pdf/2001-03-04-7.pdf).

Obviously limonene is one specific terpenoid present in some strains, there's clearly a HUGE number of compounds, cannabinoids and terpenoids etc. (I'm not completely sure on the scientific terminology that separates the two, any help?) that boast boiling temperatures in our preferred ranges.
A URL source that I'll post below is cited saying "The possibility that there are non-cannabinoids that are psychoactive or interacting with the cannabinoids has not been investigated in detail. Non-cannabinoids with biological activity have been isolated from the plants, but only in very small quantities.
None are known to be psychotomimetic. However, they may contribute to the overall experience in non-mental ways, such as the stimulation of the appetite."
(http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/mj028.htm; validity of the source of information is unsure in this case IMO).

The same and reliable McPartland and Russo study quoted earlier (not directly above) has this to share about a couple specific terpenoids:
"The study demonstrated that other terpenoids found in can-
nabis, such as citronellol and ?-terpineol, are also deeply sedating upon inha-
lation, even in low concentrations.Furthermore,combinations of these terpenoids
(e.g.,nerolioil) are synergistic in their sedative effects.These terpenoids may
mitigate the anxiety provoked by pureTHC.Inhalation of such terpenoids also
provides antidepressant effects (Komori et al. 1995).

Now, hopping back quickly to the specific compound limonene: it is "a monocyclic monoterpenoid and a major constituent of citrus rinds (TisserandandBalacs1995). It finds extensive use as a solvent and in the
perfumery and flavor industries. Because of limonene's widespread occur-
rence and application,its biological activity is well known. Limonene is highly
absorbed by inhalation and quickly appears in the blood stream (Falk-Flilips-
sonetal.1993).AccordingtoRossandElSohly(1996),limoneneisthesecond
most common terpenoid in an unidentified cultivar of cannabis," (p. 115; http://www.cannabis-med.org/data/pdf/2001-03-04-7.pdf)

So for example, and this is just me assuming due to the phenomenological experience of cannabis that exhibits an intense 'citrus' smell and taste: may this strain containing limonene provide a distinct medicinal value?


I guess the overarching point is that the complexity of active ingredients as well as non-cannabinoid compounds contained in the 'trichs' seems lost in a lot of the rhetoric surrounding the specific targeting (via temperature) adjustment of cannabinoids.



Its inspiring at least to see that most of these scientific studies (really there seems to have been an embarassingly small number) call for more research at some point:
"Numerous unexplored variables could conceivably affect the effi-
iency and output of vaporization. Included are variations in tempera-
ture; differences in the density, weight, and consistency of material in
the chamber; differences in the variety and potency of cannabis used;
and use of different preparations such as hashish, hash oil, etc. Further
research is needed to determine the extent of such effects. "
(p. 23 same Gieriger study posted above)

This last quote seems to be what your driving at stink. I think this same source says something about the relevancy of pressure in these applications.

It definitely seems like more research will shed light on some of these issues but I know that several research groups and orgs. have been seriously troubled by the bureaucratic hindrances involved with procuring samples or simply carrying out the experiments due to the nature of the product.


Sorry for the ramble, mostly posing a lot of questions I think. If anyone can point towards more links, research etc. I'd be super grateful. Thanks stinkmeaner for starting the topic.
 
hereatlast,

Egzoset

Banned
What is the highest temperature that CBD, CBN and THC can withstand without being degraded?
 
Egzoset,

treecityrnd

Active Member
About to write/research on this exact topic for a local magazine. Fantastic start to the thread...Lets keep this one going strong! So many variables...so little time. Such is life. I will reread all your wonderful posts, edit this one and report back on what I find through my research/colleagues. Thanks again for the great start. This information could be so valuable to the medical community for educating patients on methods of administration, etc.
.
 
treecityrnd,

VWFringe

Naruto Fan
interesting that other compounds in weed get us off or modify the stone (that was a long post), reminds me that it isn't nicotine that gets us hooked on cigarettes, it's actually other alkaloids which act as MAOI's. makes me want to research pot more. thx! //

I think I actually notice an extraction process during my whip sessions, meaning I notice a difference in the high between the first hit, the first part of the second hit, the last part of the second hit, and what I get after the first eight seconds of each hit after that.

Is that crazy? Do bag-fillers running at 406 degrees work better for extracting CBN's than my whip hits? And am I correct that it seems my favorite compounds aren't extracted easily in my whip hits? Like it's not just a matter of temperature, but also of force (air-stream)
 
VWFringe,
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