THC and the lungs

[lord]

I read on another forum that THC is an expectorant and therefore actually expanded and helped clean the lungs. Is that true? In other words, is THC actually good for the lungs? If so, then, how harmful is vaporization of THC to the lungs? Do the pros out way the cons (or vice versa)?

 

[lwien]

THC may be an expectorant, but it is also a lung irritant, so no, I would not say that THC is good for your lungs, even if you vaporize it. Like everything else, it's all a risk/reward ratio that we need to take into consideration.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

a lot of people report that when they switch from bongs/joints to vaping, their lungs clear out. A lot of coughing for the first 2 weeks or so.

 

[vap999]

THC may be an expectorant, but it is also a lung irritant, so no, I would not say that THC is good for your lungs, even if you vaporize it. Like everything else, it's all a risk/reward ratio that we need to take into consideration.

And keep in mind, that besides a wide variety of cannabinoids, this is just a small portion (probably at very best 15-20%) of material you are also inhaling -- a load of other plant organics and any contaminants present. This includes a wide variety of essential oils, sterols, terpenes, waxes, chlorophyll and its degradation products, sugars/carbohydrates, and any residual water, pesticides, mold spores, dust particles, insects and larvae, bird droppings and enteric bacteria (if grown outside), etc. -- just about everything naturally found in and on the plant except for the cellulose, which will not vaporize.

Obviously, some of these probably 1000s of substances are going to have some adverse effects. Some may also act as congeners and subtly affect the desired drug effects, positively or negatively. And keep in mind, that the very first part of what you inhale with most vaporizers could well include material picked up in the air stream before the herbal material was heated to a high enough temperature to sterilize it. Now, whatever potential herbal vaporization inhalation hazards there may be, these are obviously not a problem in otherwise healthy people (we inhale plant debris dust and vapors as part of the natural environment); and the same inhalation issues (and a lot more) apply to smoking herbal material.

I think it would be incorrect to assert that vaporizing any unrefined/unpurified herbal material is more healthy (physiologically) than not vaporizing it. Similarly, it is incorrect to assert that vaporization is good for you (vs. not vaporizing ground up plant material).

 

[lord]

vap999: thank you for the excellent response! If you filter the vapor via water would that prevent much of that other material and contaminants from penetrating the lungs?

lwien (or anyone else): Can you explain in more detail what you mean when you say THC is a 'lung irritant'?

 

[lwien]

v
lwien (or anyone else): Can you explain in more detail what you mean when you say THC is a 'lung irritant'?

Sure can. When you inhale THC it irritates your lungs. Not trying to be a smart ass, but I don't know how else to say it.

When you fill your lungs with as much clean air as you can, you shouldn't cough........that is, you shouldn't cough if your lungs are healthy.

Now try to fill your lungs with as much vapor as they will hold, and more than likely, you will cough like crazy as your body tries to expel it. Why? Because what is in that vapor is irritating your lungs.

Fact is, is that anything but clean air is a lung irritant and if you're truly into maximizing your lung health, you will not inhale anything other than clean air. But hey, vapor is a helluva of a lot less irritating than smoke, and I'll put up with a little bit of irritation from THC laced vapor to enjoy the high. It's that old risk/reward ratio that comes into play.

 

[lord]

lwien, I'm still not sure what irritation of the lungs means. It is not descriptive enough. Does that mean it simply makes you cough, causes inflammation of the lungs, damages tissue, etc? Do you know how or why?

Thanks.

 

[lwien]

lwien, I'm still not sure what irritation of the lungs means. It is not descriptive enough. Does that mean it simply makes you cough, causes inflammation of the lungs, damages tissue, etc?

Yes to all of the above. But...........the question is, how much. In my opinion, not enough to keep me from vaping.

Anything that is a foreign substance that you introduce to your lungs will cause a certain amount of irritation, and THC is a foreign substance. Hell, the air I breath out here in Pasadena-land is filled with foreign substances.

 

[Beezleb]

Here is some info on physiological effects of Cannabis, seems to be pro weed site so take with a grain of salt but the information is my understanding of the issue, also the article has to do with smoke from combustion and not vaporizing:
http://www.whitman.edu/biology/Stuproj/YoungB/physio.html

Effects of Marijuana Smoking on the Lungs

One of the major arguments that has been presented opponents of legalization of medicinal marijuana is that smoking anything is unsafe and marijuana smoke is even more harmful than tobacco. These people claim that there are over 400 chemicals in "crude" marijuana and no one should allow sick people to be exposed to them. (There are over 800 chemicals present in "crude" broccoli.) They also claim that there are twice as many carcinogens present in marijuana smoke than in tobacco smoke. One of the major opponents of rescheduling marijuana is Dr. Gabriel Nahas, who says medical marijuana is a cruel hoax.
The National Institute on Drug Abuse said in its 1990 report on marijuana's pulmonary effects, that they found, "No difference in prevalence of chronic cough, sputum production or wheeze was noted between the marijuana and tobacco smokers (included within their study), nor were additive effects of combined smoking of tobacco and marijuana on the prevalence of acute or chronic respiratory symptoms apparent." (citation) (NIDA book, p. 65)
The study also found that marijuana smoke and that of tobacco affected the lungs in different ways. Tobacco smoke predominantly caused degeneration of the peripheral airways and alveolated regions of the lung, while marijuana smoke affected mainly the large pathways. Because these two drugs affect different parts of the pulmonary system, their damaging effects can be additive.(citation) (NIDA book, p. 72)
Another study, this time conducted by the National Center for Toxicological Research, used 62 male rhesus monkeys to test various effects of regular (heavy exposure twice weekly) and chronic (heavy, regular smoking) use of marijuana. After a year of smoking, then seven months without exposure, some of the monkeys were sacrificed and autopsies were performed on them. The results were very encouraging as they said, "The data presented here suggest that seven months after the last smoke exposure, there is not evidence of increased marijuana smoke-induced carcinogen-DNA adducts in the lungs of exposed monkeys." (Citation) (redo and get citation from SciCitationIndex) Furthermore, the report concluded in saying, "The general health of the monkeys was not compromised by a year of marijuana smoke exposure as indicated by weight gain, carboxyhemoglobin and clinical chemistry/hematology (studies of the oxygen-carrying capacity of red blood cells) values."
There are inherent risks in inhaling hot vapors, especially those that contain particulate matter such as tar found in smoke. This is an undisputed fact, but the dangers associated with marijuana smoke are not as drastic as some people would have you believe, and the risks involved can be greatly reduced by utilizing alternative methods of ingestion.

im not sure most issue people have with coughing are due to THC but the temperature vaped at. I mainly assist terminally ill people find the best vaporizer for them and a few people I have helped only seem to cough when the vapor is hot.

If this would be the case for someone I recommend a bag vaporizer over a direct draw vaporizer as the person can have their plant vaporized at the higher temps and yet have cool vapor. Now for a healthy recreational user who is sensitive to vapor temperature can cool the vapor by using a bong with ice/water to cool the vapor. Taking a sip of a drink and wetting the mouthpiece can help reduce hot vapor as well but it not as effective but helps.

From my experience, coughing is not a problem, I know people with lung issue who vape and have no issues but I also know people who have issues with vapor who do not have lung issues. I believe its largely about temperature of the vapor rather than THC causing an irritation which I would say is largely not noticeable/detectable in its own rite. It is certainly a possibility but I would be very surprised if that was the cause for someone to cough during vaping.

 

[lord]

And keep in mind, that besides a wide variety of cannabinoids, this is just a small portion (probably at very best 15-20%) of material you are also inhaling -- a load of other plant organics and any contaminants present. This includes a wide variety of essential oils, sterols, terpenes, waxes, chlorophyll and its degradation products, sugars/carbohydrates, and any residual water, pesticides, mold spores, dust particles, insects and larvae, bird droppings and enteric bacteria (if grown outside), etc. -- just about everything naturally found in and on the plant except for the cellulose, which will not vaporize.

I have been filtering my vapor via water; it seems effective. But I want to be as effective as possible. I was wondering if adding an active carbon filter, somewhere in the vapor path, would be worth while in addition to the water filter. I was reading that the filter would filter out the contaminants, organic chemicals, essential oils, mold spores, etc -- a lot of what you mentioned.

Please share your thoughts.

 

[bluntfaced]

That's ridiculous, don't bother

just my thoughts

 

[bluntfaced]

You inhale more harmfull shit walking around a city than you would clean out of your vapor with a carbon filter

 

[vap999]

I was wondering if adding an active carbon filter, somewhere in the vapor path, would be worth while in addition to the water filter. I was reading that the filter would filter out the contaminants, organic chemicals, essential oils, mold spores, etc -- a lot of what you mentioned.

Please share your thoughts.

THC and cannabinoid molecules are inherently very sticky, sticking (by adsorption) to themselves and to other plant components, particularly cellulose. Thus, what we refer to as vaporization of herbal material is, more technically, thermal desorption, using a blast of heated air to violently tear off intothe air stream cannabinoids that have adsorbed (the proper technical term, not absorbed) or stuck themselves to cellulose (plant cell walls) and other molecules. And then you need to keep these aerosolized particles from condensing too much, forming particles/globules too large be be taken deep into the lungs.

An activated carbon filter will very efficiently remove all cannabinoids (and other polar organic molecules)!!!

Generally, add-on filtration and cooling, such as passing through water, is probably self-defeating. In the process of trying to reduce lung irritation, the particles you are inhaling (that haven't been removed) get condensed to too large a size for efficient lung delivery, reducing THC delivery. Simply stated, it seems smoother because less in reaching the deepest parts of your lungs. Added filtration and cooling lead to condensation (and sometimes removal), with the aerosolized cannabinoid droplets coalescing and forming larger droplets. Only droplet/particulates on the order of a few microns can make it into and be deposited for absorption within human lung alveoli sacs. Larger droplets/particulates are deposited in the upper respiratory tract and sooner or later washed down into the stomach.

As far as your difficulties conceptualizing lung irritation, for simplicity think about irritation of other sensitive membranes. For example, imagine passing the heated air stream from your vaporizing over your eyes, or putting condensed vapor gunk into your eyes. Even if cannabinoids were not irritants, there are many, many other natural plant components you are inhaling that are.

My recommendations are to forget about filters and simply concentrate on making sure what you inhale is cool enough not to cause throat or lung irritation, and that this gets deep into your lungs as quick as possible -- The quickest, shortest path that includes sufficient cooling is generally best.

 

[Xeal]

I read on another forum that THC is an expectorant and therefore actually expanded and helped clean the lungs. Is that true? In other words, is THC actually good for the lungs? If so, then, how harmful is vaporization of THC to the lungs? Do the pros out way the cons (or vice versa)?

''Scientists believe that THC can be especially harmful to the lungs because users often inhale the unfiltered smoke deeply and hold it in their lungs as long as possible. Therefore, the smoke is in contact with lung tissues for long periods of time, which irritates the lungs and damages the way they work.''

_+ XEAL +________________________________________________________________________________
http://stopsmokinghabits.com/health-benefits.html

 

[lwien]

''Scientists believe that THC can be especially harmful to the lungs because users often inhale the unfiltered smoke deeply and hold it in their lungs as long as possible. Therefore, the smoke is in contact with lung tissues for long periods of time, which irritates the lungs and damages the way they work.''

That quote is referring to smoke, not vapor. BIG difference.

 

[GreenLeaf]

THC may be an expectorant, but it is also a lung irritant, so no, I would not say that THC is good for your lungs, even if you vaporize it. Like everything else, it's all a risk/reward ratio that we need to take into consideration.

And keep in mind, that besides a wide variety of cannabinoids, this is just a small portion (probably at very best 15-20%) of material you are also inhaling -- a load of other plant organics and any contaminants present. This includes a wide variety of essential oils, sterols, terpenes, waxes, chlorophyll and its degradation products, sugars/carbohydrates, and any residual water, pesticides, mold spores, dust particles, insects and larvae, bird droppings and enteric bacteria (if grown outside), etc. -- just about everything naturally found in and on the plant except for the cellulose, which will not vaporize.

Obviously, some of these probably 1000s of substances are going to have some adverse effects. Some may also act as congeners and subtly affect the desired drug effects, positively or negatively. And keep in mind, that the very first part of what you inhale with most vaporizers could well include material picked up in the air stream before the herbal material was heated to a high enough temperature to sterilize it. Now, whatever potential herbal vaporization inhalation hazards there may be, these are obviously not a problem in otherwise healthy people (we inhale plant debris dust and vapors as part of the natural environment); and the same inhalation issues (and a lot more) apply to smoking herbal material.

I think it would be incorrect to assert that vaporizing any unrefined/unpurified herbal material is more healthy (physiologically) than not vaporizing it. Similarly, it is incorrect to assert that vaporization is good for you (vs. not vaporizing ground up plant material).

Erowid has info about the properties of carcinogens of Cannabis smoke vs. tobacco smoke.

Keep in mind that this is smoke and it's not vapor.

 

[Lil Dragonfly]

Is the lung irritation temporary or permanent?

 

[GreenLeaf]

Is the lung irritation temporary or permanent?

There are too many factors for that such as how much you vape as in the amount of plant material, how often you vape, how your pulmonary health is, and other factors. I'm not a doctor or a medical professional.

I don't think that vaping is "healthy" for you but it's a lot better than smoking anything is.

I've heard of people having heart attacks or the risk of having a heart attack going up after smoking/eating herb but you'd have to have major issues with the heart, cardiovascular system, and major blood pressure problems.

When I was into smoking I would cough from that but even when I was smoking daily which in itself was very rare I also was big into cardio exercise and I'd walk, run, ride a bike, and do aerobic exercises daily or at least 3X a week for 30-40 mins, and I still do these exercises as well as lifting.

 

[lwien]

I've heard of people having heart attacks or the risk of having a heart attack going up after smoking/eating herb but you'd have to have major issues with the heart, cardiovascular system, and major blood pressure problems.

Yeah, I've read various studies that suggests that you are 4 times more likely to have a heart attack within the first hour of THC ingestion because it raises your heart rate 20 to 50 beats per minute over your resting heart rate. Fuck, I run 4 miles 4 to 5 times a week and I get my heart rate raised about 80 to 85 beats per minute over my resting heart rate, and I keep it there for about an hour. Does that mean that my risk for a heart attack while running is twice that of when I'm smoking weed?

I wonder if it has to do with blood pressure because when you smoke weed, your heart rate rises while your blood pressure lowers. When exercising, your blood pressure rises while your heart rate rises. Wonder what the net affect of this difference is.

 

[steven22]

''Scientists believe that THC can be especially harmful to the lungs because users often inhale the unfiltered smoke deeply and hold it in their lungs as long as possible. Therefore, the smoke is in contact with lung tissues for long periods of time, which irritates the lungs and damages the way they work.''

That quote is referring to smoke, not vapor. BIG difference.

Im going on a limb here, but I think his post is sarcastic.