Suicide and marijuana

[little maggie]

I have to study suicide and am watching an interesting presentation on this. They don't have any idea why but they have repeatedly found that a majority of people who commit suicide who have the specific diagnosis of Generalized Anxiety Diagnosis are using marijuana when they kill themselves.

There is not this same correlation with marijuana use with any other mental health diagnosis. In fact alcohol is more of a factor in suicide with a mental health condition.

 

[chris 71]

self medicating ?
i also read recently that if we applied the same reasoning that they try to do with the reefer madness senerio . that cannabis cause schizophrenia , because a high percent of
schizophrenics tend to also be cannabis users to tobacco use .
it would appear that tobacco could be the cause of schizophrenia because a higher percent of schizophrenics also tend to be tobacco smokers .

maybe the marijuana use has less to do with cause , as it does just to the fact that desperate people seek many ways to alter and make better there reality , marijuana just happens to be a readily available drug that may work or be one that people try because of its readily availability
it is then more likely to also appear that the substance could possibly be the cause .
possibly they might find that these people also had a much higher probability to have been smoking cigarettes when they killed them selves does this mean the tobacco is to blame ?

there is also just to many variables for me to ever be able to see these correlations that they try to find reason in as being sound ideas . because cannabis can come in so many variations for just one, to go down that road to find it as a measurable causation so many other things would also need to be takin into account it just doesn't make for legitimate reasoning to me .

 

[little maggie]

I don't think there's any disagreement with what you're saying. Suicide is a way of dealing with overwhelming pain and many people use marijuana to deal with pain. For whatever reasons, the research says that those with anxiety who self medicate with marijuana are more likely to commit suicide. Marijuana does not cause suicide- it's a way of coping with overwhelming anxiety. But suicidologists don't know why there is this correlation. People who are depressed use marijuana as a way to manage emotions as well but there is not necessarily that correlation. Meaning some people who use marijuana and are depressed may suicide but the suicide rate is not more than those with depression who suicide and don't use marijuana. And some people with GAD probably self medicate with alcohol but still there is not a correlation between alcohol and suicide with GAD.

There has been so much negative input over the years about the effects of marijuana and so much of that is bs. But that doesn't mean that there are no negatives with marijuana use. It's not all or nothing.

 

[hibeam]

@chris 71 fuck yeah!

More likely? Big logical fallacy here. chris 71 called that one. The problem with this kind of sampling is one of exclusion. What else are all these people doing? Are they on meds too and maybe trying to deal with side effects? I would like to see more transparency about the psyche meds suicidals are on. Suicidal thoughts are a very common side effect of many pharma meds....

I keep editing here...

@little maggie you are right it is not an all or nothing thing. I read signs of possible mj abuse on fc. But I get really wary of any research that might guide the hand of legislation toward fear and away from choice. That's all.

 

[killick]

Most GAD meds have side effects that include suicidal thoughts. Ditto for stop smoking meds, and a whole bunch of others. Why can't pharma meds have side effects like 'may cause spontaneous orgasm' or any side effects that don't include 'anal leakage'...

Part of this may be the whole bunch of years I spent thinking all pharma was good for me, and that all doctors were trying to make me better. It's only the last few years that I've been finding out just how not good it's been...

 

[TeeJay1952]

I dislike ascribing cause and effect to end of life decisions. If I use any substance and at the end of life choose to end said same then the substance is held as a factor. IE A lifelong partaker of our med decides it is time to fold then the meds must be a factor. Never mind that the meds got them to this point. Perhaps is was the use of meds that staved off the fatal decision for decades.

 

[Snappo]

I may also consider that MJ has thwarted many more suicides than it may have failed stave off. I tend to seriously doubt that an MJ session, or series of sessions, eventually brings one to the brink of finality. However, I cannot completely discount the possibility that in a rare few individuals, given their severe depth of depression, that suicide could not be staved off no matter if meds/MJ were in effect or not - i.e., it was in fact their firmly held decision to commit to suicide regardless of any self medicating, therapies, or support. Given the broad field of highly dubious pharma meds, daily life stresses, intense pervasive pain, etc., I think that MJ is likely among the least likely culprits to cement one's resolve to commit suicide.

 

[gaseous_clay]

Most GAD meds have side effects that include suicidal thoughts. Ditto for stop smoking meds, and a whole bunch of others. Why can't pharma meds have side effects like 'may cause spontaneous orgasm' or any side effects that don't include 'anal leakage'...

Part of this may be the whole bunch of years I spent thinking all pharma was good for me, and that all doctors were trying to make me better. It's only the last few years that I've been finding out just how not good it's been...

Saw an ad for an insomnia med that included suicidal thoughts, strange dreams, hallucinations and the inability to move before and after falling asleep.

How is toking up before bed worse than popping a pill that makes you hallucinate, then suffer temporary paralysis, dreams that make you freak the fuck out and then you wake up having suicidal thoughts that thankfully are just that because you still can't fucking move?

 

[woolspinner]

I have to study suicide and am watching an interesting presentation on this. They don't have any idea why but they have repeatedly found that a majority of people who commit suicide who have the specific diagnosis of Generalized Anxiety Diagnosis are using marijuana when they kill themselves.

There is not this same correlation with marijuana use with any other mental health diagnosis. In fact alcohol is more of a factor in suicide with a mental health condition.

Who did this research study - what academic facility and who paid for it?
How many suicides in total were examined?
From which countries/provinces was the data obtained?
How did they discover cannabis use? Blood findings?
When they measured, were they simply finding that sometime in the last 90 days the suicide victim had used or did they have definitive proof that they had used immediately or shortly before committing suicide?
Do they know the amount and/or frequency of the individual's use?
We're there any other commonalities between the victims or was cannabis use the only common thread?

If these questions were not answered in the presentation given, then I doubt the so-called study was based on real science.

 

[Snappo]

If these questions were not answered in the presentation given, then I doubt the so-called study was based on real science.

There can be no "real science" behind the presumption - only anecdotal at best, and that can hardly be considered much good because suicides cannot be forecast with precise predictability or monitoring at length prior to the final act.

 

[woolspinner]

There can be no "real science" behind the presumption - only anecdotal at best, and that can hardly be considered much good because suicides cannot be forecast with precise predictability or monitoring at length prior to the final act.

Even social science has guidelines and tools by which data is collected. And if this was a genuine research study, they have to back up their findings. A very good friend of mine is ABD in Public Health and I remember when she was researching her doctorate which had to do with smoking within a particular population.
The study/presentation did not sound as if it was intended as a means of preventing suicide, but was investigating suicides within a group to find links and probable causation. A link was found between the suicides of those with GA and their use of marijuana. There may be a link, but without answering the questions I brought up, any implication, which I had the (possibly mistaken) impressiion an implication WAS being made, that cannabis use may have been a causation of the suicides is not research science of any kind - social or physical - but a puff propaganda piece.

 

[Snappo]

Even social science has guidelines and tools by which data is collected. And if this was a genuine research study, they have to back up their findings. A very good friend of mine is ABD in Public Health and I remember when she was researching her doctorate which had to do with smoking within a particular population.
The study/presentation did not sound as if it was intended as a means of preventing suicide, but was investigating suicides within a group to find links and probable causation. A link was found between the suicides of those with GA and their use of marijuana. There may be a link, but without answering the questions I brought up, any implication, which I had the (possibly mistaken) impressiion an implication WAS being made, that cannabis use may have been a causation of the suicides is not research science of any kind - social or physical - but a puff propaganda piece.

Small group studies (or large for that matter) with all-too-many indeterminable valid variables , which rely on statistical analysis, are severely flawed in that they can be tallied the same way as the flip of the coin - it's always a 50/50 chance that findings go one way or the other way; and further, a group of 500 may statistically evidence one finding, while a following group of 500 will evidence an alternate finding ...rendering each group finding inconclusive while also hanging all precepts and premises out to dry.

 

[Snappo]

Fact is people commit suicide for any number of reasons. I see no reason to focus on the herb.

Precisely - scapegoating! Target instead the myriad causes for peoples' pain and suffering, like heavily polluted air and water, genetics, pesticides, mega-pharma, politics, religious extremism, human failings and frailties, pure stupidity, carelessness, etc., ad infinitum ad nauseam...

 

[TeeJay1952]

Or maybe they were just done. Story completed. Time to go home. You can't see what is in someone else's head. If you don't own your life what do you own?

 

[Snappo]

Or maybe they were just done. Story completed. Time to go home. You can't see what is in someone else's head. If you don't own your life what do you own?

BULLSEYE!

 

[HomeFree]

Cannabis works absolutely fantastic for mitigating anxiety/stress for myself. It's rare I run across any that make it worse. And in those cases it is for about 10 or 15 minutes and then gives way to great relief. Maybe it is just the shift in perception/direction that does it. maybe it is treating some kind of deficiency. I don't know, but what I do know is that it works wonders for me. If I could use it all day long I would.

 

[Stevenski]

I have abused cannabis for over 20 years. I have tried to kill myself before & luckily failed. If I did kill myself there would be a bunch of other reasons listed before "cannabis abuser".

 

[1DMF]

I second @Stevenski , but for the grace of god, I have been spared, and if it wasn't for cannabis, I might not have been so lucky!

I know there is the classic Cheech & Chong saying...

"You can get through times with dope and no money easier than you can get through times of money and no dope"

But I have yet seen anyone driven to suicide because they couldn't score a bag of weed or because the just did!

Heroin on the other hand!

I was once prescribed amitriptyline as an anti-depressant for PTSD, it gave me such bad acne on my back, I turned into a blind persons horror novel!

If I didn't have depression before taking them, I sure did afterwards.

So I said screw you medical profession, threw them in the bin, went back to the ganja, and I've been much happier and don't have a spotty back - go figure!

So I am very concerned with some of the shit pumped down vulnerable people's throats as so called 'medicine'. No drug is all or nothing, and no drug is one fits all!

 

[Vitolo]

"You can get through times with dope and no money easier than you can get through times of money and no dope"

FreeWheelin' Franklin Freak said this quote (Robert Crumb /author) in the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers Comix)
Actual quote is ""Dope will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no dope." See the quote here: http://www.google.com/search?q="Dope+will+get+you+through+times+of+no+money+better+than+money+will+get+you+through+times+of+no+dope.&client=safari&rls=en&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwin4LDj4e_JAhUS02MKHVAsCpMQsAQIFA
The quote was actually written by Gilbert Shelton who was the Artist that did the drawings for Robert Crumb.

 

[1DMF]

Cool, I knew it was one of the two

I actually found one of those comics in my side dresser when putting the bedroom furniture back after it was carpeted on Friday!

I even had a Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers cigarette case and Rizla case - but gave them to a friend

 

[weenstoned]

One has to wonder how many were actually on cannabis at the time or just had it in their blood from up to 30 days prior. Also gotta think that most adverse reactions are people getting a strong sativa in places where prohibition does not give them any choice. If they had access to pure indicas or high cbd strains it would be smooth sailing.

 

[herbivore21]

We always chalk up suicide to substances or specific events.

The way I see it - and I have psychological credentials as well as sadly friends who have taken their own lives - is that suicide is a culmination of a shitty experience of life.

We as societies are much more comfortable to chalk somebody taking their own life up to something other than their experience of our society.

Almost all of my friends who took their lives were under the influence of something. Every single one of them had a lifetime of suffering, misery, abuse etc that pre-dated their use of any drug.

How the fuck can we jump to the drug being the cause of the problem when there are so many other potentially relevant variables (drug use never exists in a vacuum)? It is simple really, a self-sealing argument. Because a drug is something we as societies already tell people not to do. So instead of focusing on the problem, we can just say that they should have known better and pat ourselves on the backs for not becoming 'tragic junkies'.

Whereas if we acknowledge the billions of people around the world who are not properly accommodated in their societies; those who can't get food, clothes and shelter when they need it, who have noone to love or care for them when shit gets bad etc, I guess we really would have to get off our asses and do something - and that sounds too much like hard work to most people when it comes down to it!

 

[CarolKing]

There's always been folks committing suicide over the ages. Families used to live close to one another and were there to take care of each other.

We used to take care of our elderly relatives in our homes until they died or until we couldn't pick them up and sit them on the toilet any longer. Plenty of elderly commit suicide but we don't hear about that. Their families have set them aside and they feel like just an added burden to society. They may have an incurable disease and don't want to go on any more.

I agree a lot of people decide to end it all because they have been dealt a shitty hand in life. It's just not worth it for them to go on. They just feel tired and defeated.

Edit
I had a friend from high school that had everything going for him. He was nice looking, good personality had a great head on his shoulders. He went into the Marines after high school.. It was back in the 70s and early 80s so it wasn't a time of war. He was an MP in the military.

After that he went into the state police department and did well for 15+years. Something happened where he got on the bad side of a superior officer. He then was sent to work in the worst areas and given the worst jobs.

Eventually he started having some emotional problems and was forced out. He had a family at this point and responsabilities. He was very hard on himself.

He tried doing some other things but he just couldn't get it together. He had become a shadow of the young man he used to be. He was on medication for depression the last I knew.

His body was found on a dirt road inside his vehicle one gun shot to the chest. I didn't want to believe he had taken his own life. I wanted to believe that someone shot him because I felt so badly they he was hurting so much that he had taken his own life. I had myself convinced that he would not have shot himself in the chest. People shoot themselves in the head don't they when they kill themselves? They needed to find the person that did this, is what I kept telling myself.

Eventually a suicide note was found, it was devasting for his family and all his friends. He was 48 years old. We just couldn't believe that our precious friend would do this. We all had loved him so much. He felt so a lone and helpless, if we had known maybe we could have helped him, I don't know.

 

[herbivore21]

There's always been folks committing suicide over the ages. Families used to live close to one another and were there to take care of each other.

We used to take care of our elderly relatives in our homes until they died or until we couldn't pick them up and sit them on the toilet any longer. Plenty of elderly commit suicide but we don't hear about that. Their families have set them aside and they feel like just an added burden to society. They may have an incurable disease and don't want to go on any more.

I agree a lot of people decide to end it all because they have been dealt a shitty hand in life. It's just not worth it for them to go on. They just feel tired and defeated.

Yup, and that last paragraph of yours says it all my friend.

If we want to do something about suicide, how about we start taking care of the most vulnerable people in our societies again. The very elderly and the young alike. For example, young people with disabilities (because of the way we treat them, not because of their disability!) live the life of an elderly invalid almost from the get go. I have run into some shocking examples of young people living with disability who should be in the prime of their lives but end up living on the streets, in youth refuges, being routinely exploited and exposed to violence all the while. How the fuck do we expect these people to just 'hang in there'?

Frankly, many of our community's approaches to the most vulnerable of our people stink to high heavens. Nothing sickens me more.

Then there is the issue of lack of agency and proper advocacy for people with mental illnesses. That is another complete clusterfuck topic.

 

[little maggie]

Let me just say that the research quoted was just one aspect of a larger perspective that doesn't disagree with anything here and that is not trying to blame drugs for suicide.
People commit suicide because they are in unbearable pain and are using drugs as an attempt to manage the pain. I still thought it was interesting that of the many people who have a mental health diagnosis and use drugs or alcohol the few with anxiety that actually commit suicide tend to be using marijuana instead of alcohol or another drug.