Study of Various Vaporizer Brands....

[luchiano]

The herbalizer definitely does that too

It keeps the temperature stable, but it doesn't take into account how much air is passing the heating element. based on why it was made, i kind of understand why they didn't do that. It was designed to be able to keep a stable temp, regardless of your inhale. That's a good, and a bad thing. Its good because you have a good idea what temperature the heater is at, and the air. The bad is you won't see the same results, technically, because your inhales may be different from one session to the next. The aromed is 3 liters for every 15 seconds(if i remember correctly), the volcano doesn't, I was wrong about that one. The crafty, and the mighty are 10l/min. The plenty is 30 l/min.

Looking at how much air the plenty can heat up, it makes sense why it was the highest in thc/cbd extraction for desktops. It's design is perfect fore a large extraction, quickly. The hose, being narrow, helps lower the atmospheric pressure, along with your inhale, and that helps with extracting quickly, and at a lower temperature then a loose bowl will. Plus, the bowl itself also helps with lowering the atmospheric pressure because when you have a tight bowl, and you are inhaling strongly, more actives can be extracted, as long as the heat stays consistent, and a lot of air can pass through the tight space.

Allegedly!

 

[TboneToker]

It keeps the temperature stable, but it doesn't take into account how much air is passing the heating element. based on why it was made, i kind of understand why they didn't do that. It was designed to be able to keep a stable temp, regardless of your inhale. That's a good, and a bad thing. Its good because you have a good idea what temperature the heater is at, and the air. The bad is you won't see the same results, technically, because your inhales may be different from one session to the next. The aromed is 3 liters for every 15 seconds(if i remember correctly), the volcano doesn't, I was wrong about that one. The crafty, and the mighty are 10l/min. The plenty is 30 l/min.

Looking at how much air the plenty can heat up, it makes sense why it was the highest in thc/cbd extraction for desktops. It's design is perfect fore a large extraction, quickly. The hose, being narrow, helps lower the atmospheric pressure, along with your inhale, and that helps with extracting quickly, and at a lower temperature then a loose bowl will. Plus, the bowl itself also helps with lowering the atmospheric pressure because when you have a tight bowl, and you are inhaling strongly, more actives can be extracted, as long as the heat stays consistent, and a lot of air can pass through the tight space.

Allegedly!

Wouldn't it not matter for the volcano since draw speed is always going to be consistent?

 

[luchiano]

@TboneToker Exactly!

 

[TboneToker]

@TboneToker Exactly!

So would the herbalizer not work similar to the volcano if you use the balloons then! As in it will be consistent each time?! Problem solved just use the fan assist without really drawing at all just enough to inhale and voila!

 

[luchiano]

@TboneToker I haven't used one, but from the people on here, it takes much longer to fill a bag then the volcano. The volcano can fill a normal bag in 30 seconds. For the volcano, I have read over a minute, but i've also read it was fast, so the results are not the same for everyone. Remember the herbalizer uses a very small heating element, while the volcano uses a much larger one.

@TboneToker You can do that, but there will be more condensation due to the more air coming into the narrow path of the tubing. That will lower how much actives are in the vapor because all the actives are in constant contact with each other, and clumping up, this will cause a lot of cooling down, and condensation on the walls of the tubing. The first session might not be that bad, but every other session would make a lot of residue/oil. Remember, the bowl is narrow, so that alone will cool down the vapor somewhat as soon as it leaves the bowl. With a bag, because it expands, it allows the vapor to not touch too much of the cool parts or each other, like a tight narrow tube would. The narrow tube is the only issue that can be a problem with the plenty vaporizer. In theory, it would need a lot of cleaning after only a few session from all the condensation.

 

[jojo monkey]

@luchiano Yeah the volcano uses more heat with the big aluminum block. One attempts to dance on a wire and the other muscles its way. The amount of heat is the difference. The cano has more heat/energy in it to produce more.

I think the cano has a pid controller? So they both have some computer brains doing the math a few times a second.

I generally think the amount of heat is the difference between filling a can in 3 seconds or 20 seconds.

 

[CuckFumbustion]

Ran into the information from the OP earleir, then this thread.

So is this any basis to call conduction "better" than convection?

I asked myself that too. I do think it is a =/- of said concentration plus how quickly it ramps up to that said heat matters equally. I sure would like the Arizer Air to weigh in these studies.

You don't need to spend a lot of money to get a kick ass vaporizer that gets the job done and then some.

It is the design of the vape coming together with reasonable materials and less moving parts (literally and figuratively). Sometimes you get ease of use and mod-ability too!
I find the most of the more expensive vapes tend to do their one thing excellent with proprietary parts. I'd be willing to shave off a small amount of that for all the other points I mentioned earlier and later. Then take advantage of having a reasonable priced vape for my research and efforts. Conversely, If you found exactly what works for you, excellent. Try to have a small understanding why it works for you before endorsing it to someone who has no reference point.

There is a wealth of information in this paper. It's like every question answered leads to at least 5 new questions. I agree that the references section is gold.

Edit - had no idea there was a Journal of Cannabis Therapy

Here's another interesting article that is referenced a lot in the introduction titled "Cannabis vaporizer combines efficient delivery of THC with effective suppression of pyro-lytic compounds"
http://www.canorml.org/healthfacts/jcantgieringervapor.pdf

+1 on that point. 5 new questions per each answered question. I do get that too. I went reference page on a few of the points and raised a few more wrinkles.

You may well vape more than many but getting high is definitively a subjective experience. Scientific, objective measures like "fraction of THC extracted under artificial conditions" cannot address subjective complexities.

If they can measure what is being released say intro an instrument and coming up with these figures, then at least there is a baseline as to what is being extracted. This is important for medical patients who might very well avoiding the euphoric effects. With euphoria, I do thing subjectivity and external influences, mood, physical activity, outside temperature etc do enter into that equation.

@Poostuff I agree with you on the teething point. Match there combustion habits to a vape ritual that gives a similar draw taste impact etc. Seen that coorolation here many times at FC.

Found this part in the 'Medicinal Cannabis: In Vitro Validation of Vaporizers for the Smoke-Free Inhalation of Cannabis' article:
Vaporizers decarboxylate cannabinoid acids at about 200°C and release neutral, volatile cannabinoids, which enter the systemic circulation via pulmonary absorption from the vapor [22]
I've been keeping my EQ plugged for the most part at 200c with my glass well insulated to keep it more at that more constant even heat. It is my worry free setting and calibrated as my sweet spot.

 

[howie105]

Amen to that.
@ataxian normally points that out but he might be asleep at this hour.
But surely that does not mean we should stop trying to learn more about the science involved? That's the way users can make informed choices and manufacturers can make better vaporisers.

My originally post was..... It really comes down to how well a particular vape and user get along. On paper its one thing but at the end of the session its what the user gets out of the vape that counts....So no I did not mention anything like "
we should stop trying to learn more about the science involved" hope this makes my post easier to understand.

 

[mikek9]

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0147286

Apparently they tested 5 vaporizers in a standardized way in a laboratory. The devices were the volcano medic, volcano plenty, arizer solo, DaVinci vaporizer and another I have never heard of was called "vape-or-smoke".

They tested the THC recovery with standardized samples of THC and CBD using 50mg doses.

Surprisingly the volcano medic only had a THC recovery of about 58%, the plenty about 67%, the solo almost 83%, the DaVinci at 55% and lastly the vape-or-smoke at 56%.

This is very interesting and would be great if they did this with every vape.

The study concluded that the higher the recovery percentage the less quantity of dried marijuana the patient needs to use to achieve the desired medical effect.

This was also all done at 410 f except the vape or smoke which didn't have an adjustable temp I believe.

I'm curious what others think of these results. They are from January 2016, but the experiment was done early 2015.

 

[kellya86]

This is good news, I love my solo....

But I'm surprised it's so efficient....

I'm sure my eq is far more efficient, it must be up in the 90's.....

I want more studies...

 

[MoltenTiger]

I was quite surprised to see the portable vapes performing like the volcano. I've never used a Volcano, but as the poster boy of the industry I would have expected better performance.
I seem to recall reading a comment where someone said that 0.05g wasn't really enough for the Volcano to perform properly? Maybe this is a slight flaw in the study.

I think they should have attempted to monitor the temperature of each vape for consistency.
I guess it's not really about comparing devices though...

I really need to work on my bookmarking game, I've read a lot of scientific articles over the last year re: cannabis.
I recall one study found that a smoke cloud consisted of 12% cannabinoids, where a vapour cloud clocked in at 85%.

 

[kellya86]

I am surprised the solo, and the others actually, performing so well with such a small dose....

A good point you make about the small dose of 50mg, maybe a 100mg would have been a fairer amount to allow all vapes to work at their optimum, like you say, the volcano (apparently) takes more herb to be efficient....

I would like to see these 5 vapes instead....

1. Arizer eq
2. Cloud EVO
3. Vapolution 3
4. Herbie
5. A log vape, maybe a home grown log since I'm in uk....

 

[MoltenTiger]

I am surprised the solo, and the others actually, performing so well with such a small dose....

A good point you make about the small dose of 50mg, maybe a 100mg would have been a fairer amount to allow all vapes to work at their optimum, like you say, the volcano (apparently) takes more herb to be efficient....

I would like to see these 5 vapes instead....

1. Arizer eq
2. Cloud EVO
3. Vapolution 3
4. Herbie
5. A log vape, maybe a home grown log since I'm in uk....

I'll add to your list the Grasshopper. Finding it very impressive.
So blazed haha.

I think an interesting way to test vaporizers would be to profile the ABV like they do medical grade bud. So doing a before and after type analysis, gaining a THC, CBD, THCV etc. % value from green and then from a post vape sample - even at different browning consistencies.

I think it's an exciting area of science, and so underdeveloped. A test as simple as this could produce some interesting findings. There's an decent web of science already forming.

https://examine.com/supplements/marijuana/

This website cites almost 700 individual studies and is a good basis of information

 

[cloudsosmoke]

S&B dosing instructions include claim of verified 50% extraction rate for mighty (medic) @210c

of which they say your lungs can extract 65%

0.5 x 0.65 = 0.325 ..so you end up getting 32.5% of measured dose in bloodstream



link (..scroll to p23)

https://www.docdroid.net/S9qHsGz/mm-gebrauchsanweisung-en.pdf.html

 

[Baron23]

I was quite surprised to see the portable vapes performing like the volcano. I've never used a Volcano, but as the poster boy of the industry I would have expected better performance.
I seem to recall reading a comment where someone said that 0.05g wasn't really enough for the Volcano to perform properly? Maybe this is a slight flaw in the study.

I think they should have attempted to monitor the temperature of each vape for consistency.
I guess it's not really about comparing devices though...

I really need to work on my bookmarking game, I've read a lot of scientific articles over the last year re: cannabis.
I recall one study found that a smoke cloud consisted of 12% cannabinoids, where a vapour cloud clocked in at 85%.

I would agree. .05 is not enough to run a Volcano well. .15 minimum I think and more like .2 - .25 is a sweet spot in my experience.

Also, I need to read this article more carefully to understand the methodology. I know a Volcano, as fixed speed fan vaporizer, will dilute vapor and particularly for the first few seconds or so. I need to read how they measured the resulting extraction that results in these percentages.

P.S. - in the abstract they say,

"Gas chromatography/mass spectrometry was used to determine recoveries of total THC (THCtot) and total CBD (CBDtot) in the vapor".

This may explain this a bit. Volcano vapor is NOT the most dense. As a matter of fact, its often pretty diluted by the first few seconds of air (assuming you put the bag on before turning on the fan) and just in general it seems diluted by the fan and it takes multiple bags to fully extract a load. I wonder if, as implied, they just examined a sample of the vapor and measured THC therein and, given its dilution, found it wanting compared to an Air rather than extract everything possible from a set load size and compare the total THC content?

 

[herbivore21]

@srama21 mentioned that the reference section of this study was "gold." Here's an excerpt from London's Provincial Medical Journal, dated 1843, titled "On the Preparations of the Indian Hemp, or Gunjah" (I never knew where the term ganja came from!):

"On the 6th of November 1838, one grain of the resin of hemp was administered in solution, at 2pm, to each of these three patients.
At 4pm, it was reported that one was becoming very talkative, was singing songs, calling loudly for an extra supply of food and declaring himself in perfect health…”

Holy shit man, that original text color in your first post is hard on the eyes! By the way, I believe the term Ganja has roots in Sanskrit, one ancient language from the Indian subcontinent.

This is fascinating since Sanskrit is one of the oldest known languages, which served as a lingua franca for a great portion of Indian history - a technical or trade language (also something that was used by multiple ethnic groups living somewhere so diverse as India as a mutual third language when members of different groups did not share a common local language).

Sanskrit was used to document ancient philosophy, religion, science and much more. It is a language which is central to a variety of Buddhist, Hindu and even Jain traditions. This is due to the origins of Sanskrit coming from the Vedas, a collection of Ancient Indian texts which outline rituals, philosophy, mantras and more.

The original Vedic Sanskrit is an archaic language today. Broadly speaking, present-day Sanskrit sees continuing use mostly in religious contexts.

Ganja, being a term in the Sanskrit vernacular indicates that cannabis must have had clear usefulness to people from multiple different ethnic groups within the Indian subcontinent. This should come as no surprise since ganja is referred to in the Vedas as one of the five sacred plants and as such, has religious significance in a variety of traditions originating in the region that draw upon these texts.

Ganja has of course been widely used in Indian medicine and IIRC it is described in this context in the Vedas as well as other ritual contexts. The Vedas also describe cannabis as a 'joy-giver' and a source of liberation

 

[Nesta]

Holy shit man, that original text color in your first post is hard on the eyes! By the way, I believe the term Ganja has roots in Sanskrit, one ancient language from the Indian subcontinent.

This is fascinating since Sanskrit is one of the oldest known languages, which served as a lingua franca for a great portion of Indian history - a technical or trade language (also something that was used by multiple ethnic groups living somewhere so diverse as India as a mutual third language when members of different groups did not share a common local language).

Sanskrit was used to document ancient philosophy, religion, science and much more. It is a language which is central to a variety of Buddhist, Hindu and even Jain traditions. This is due to the origins of Sanskrit coming from the Vedas, a collection of Ancient Indian texts which outline rituals, philosophy, mantras and more.

The original Vedic Sanskrit is an archaic language today. Broadly speaking, present-day Sanskrit sees continuing use mostly in religious contexts.

Ganja, being a term in the Sanskrit vernacular indicates that cannabis must have had clear usefulness to people from multiple different ethnic groups within the Indian subcontinent. This should come as no surprise since ganja is referred to in the Vedas as one of the five sacred plants and as such, has religious significance in a variety of traditions originating in the region that draw upon these texts.

Ganja has of course been widely used in Indian medicine and IIRC it is described in this context in the Vedas as well as other ritual contexts. The Vedas also describe cannabis as a 'joy-giver' and a source of liberation

@herbivore21, sorry about the text. I view the FC site with a white background, I think it's called FC Soft. For awhile there I was writing some posts in Word then pasting into FC. It took some time to realize that they looked fine in FC Soft but were unreadable with some of the other backgrounds.

That's some very interesting linguistic info about Sanskrit. Thanks for that! It makes sense that the term Ganja migrated from India to England & on to Jamaica, all being part of the British Empire.

I'm wondering- with India's history of cannabis use dating back thousands of years, is it illegal there today? If so, is it prosecuted heavily?

 

[VapeHeadz]

All I know is I LOVE my solo and do not feel like even trying other vapes. It does the job really well for me. I had an Extreme Q before the Solo but once I got the Solo the EQ became redundant.

 

[stoned-chihuahua]

Here is another mind blowing study on vaporizers. It examines the efficency of several different models of vaporizers, with both high THC and high CBD cannabis.

You can see that vaporizer design is critical to efficiency. Some vapes will trap more cannabinoids in the vapor pathway. All vapes are pretty good, but some are better than others. I have no affiliation with any of these brands. But there’s no better place to post this than FC...

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0147286

 

[Polarbearboy]

Here is another mind blowing study on vaporizers. It examines the efficency of several different models of vaporizers, with both high THC and high CBD cannabis.

You can see that vaporizer design is critical to efficiency. Some vapes will trap more cannabinoids in the vapor pathway. All vapes are pretty good, but some are better than others. I have no affiliation with any of these brands. But there’s no better place to post this than FC...

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0147286

Thanks for posting. I wonder why the Arizer Solo extracted significantly more THC than the other tested vapes?

 

[Mulchmaker]

This puts me of a mind to pick up one of the leftover Solo 1s that have gone on sale since the Solo 2's release. You know, for science.

 

[Alex3oe]

Good weed/hash is not easy to obtain where I live and quite expensive, so efficiency plays a big role for me. Used a second hand Volcano for over 6 years until the compressor got weaker and weaker. My next device was the Solo. I've been a heavy vaper at this time and already then I thought I would need less material with the Solo.
When S&B came out with the two new devices, I bought the Mighty. At this time I was using an Air, but mostly the Vapman. I was loving taste and handling of the Mighty, but realized an increase consumption of materials. For me the difference was so big, had no alternative other than selling the Mighty.

 

[AMiA]

Neat stuff!

Sounds like a short airpath and lots of heat is a good recipe.

Maybe that's why FURY 2 seems to hit really hard for me..