Stephen Hawking: God didn't create universe

[reece]

It is a story that teaches a lesson. No one expects it to be taken literally.

You just put your finger on the problem with the good book, torah, and quoran! The vast majority of people DO take them literally. Hence, centuries of holy wars, ritual slaughter in the name of God, and smarmy religious one-upsmanship.

Vast majority? Hmm.

How about the centuries of noble acts in the name of God? The Ku Klux Klan use God as their justification. So did those that ran the Underground Railroad, as did those who fought, and still fight, for civil rights.

Ghandi, MLK, Mother Teresa. You're cherry picking the evidence.


It's all about people. Had there been no religion, no concept of some god or gods, I think we still would have had centuries of wars and slaughter. We are pretty resourceful. We have no shortage of excuses to justify our cruelty. Your skin is the wrong color, you have long hair, you worship the wrong god, you worship the same god but in the wrong way.


You can blame religion but it's really us.

 

[lwien]

You can blame religion but it's really us.

Yeah, I think it's really organized religion that is the culprit here for they really do seem to prey on one of our innate emotions............fear, be it fear of not going to heaven, fear of going to hell, fear of non-believers, fear of the devil, etc etc etc and that fear is used to keep the flock together, for the best way to keep the flock together is for all of them to think that they are right and everyone else is wrong and if they stray from the flock, bad things will happen to them.

I don't think a personal belief in God is the problem here. While one may not believe, another may and there's really no problem with that.........that is until organized religion raises it's ugly head.

Has organized religion done some good in this world. Sure they have, but the question is, have they done more good than harm. I don't think so.

 

[rabblerouser]

"Religion is regarded by the wise as false, by the foolish as true, and by the rulers as useful." -Seneca the Younger

I don't know anything about the roman guy who said it, it's the "by the rulers as useful" part...

 

[Pappy]

It is a story that teaches a lesson. No one expects it to be taken literally.

You just put your finger on the problem with the good book, torah, and quoran! The vast majority of people DO take them literally. Hence, centuries of holy wars, ritual slaughter in the name of God, and smarmy religious one-upsmanship.

Vast majority? Hmm.

How about the centuries of noble acts in the name of God? The Ku Klux Klan use God as their justification. So did those that ran the Underground Railroad, as did those who fought, and still fight, for civil rights.

Ghandi, MLK, Mother Teresa. You're cherry picking the evidence.


It's all about people. Had there been no religion, no concept of some god or gods, I think we still would have had centuries of wars and slaughter. We are pretty resourceful. We have no shortage of excuses to justify our cruelty. Your skin is the wrong color, you have long hair, you worship the wrong god, you worship the same god but in the wrong way.


You can blame religion but it's really us.

I appreciate your sentiments but I'm suspicious of books that were written hundreds of years after the fact by people who never knew the people they profess to pontificate about. Meanwhile, back in reality, the NY Times with it's massive newsroom can't even get a story that happened today right. That's my disconnect on the "good book".

 

[reece]

I appreciate your sentiments but I'm suspicious of books that were written hundreds of years after the fact by people who never knew the people they profess to pontificate about. Meanwhile, back in reality, the NY Times with it's massive newsroom can't even get a story that happened today right. That's my disconnect on the "good book".

No need to be suspicious of a book. Read it. I bet you'll find things you agree with, and things you don't.
There is real insight to be gained. There's also bullshit. There's also some really cool stories. But absolutely nothing to be afraid of. It's those that would use portions of the Bible to justify their horrific actions you should be worried about.

I have no problem with Christ, it's some of those Christians you have to watch out for.

Are you suspisious of cars, and screwdrivers? They can be used in harmful ways just like the Bible can be.

 

[Pappy]

I appreciate your sentiments but I'm suspicious of books that were written hundreds of years after the fact by people who never knew the people they profess to pontificate about. Meanwhile, back in reality, the NY Times with it's massive newsroom can't even get a story that happened today right. That's my disconnect on the "good book".

No need to be suspicious of a book. Read it. I bet you'll find things you agree with, and things you don't.
There is real insight to be gained. There's also bullshit. There's also some really cool stories. But absolutely nothing to be afraid of. It's those that would use portions of the Bible to justify their horrific actions you should be worried about.

I have no problem with Christ, it's some of those Christians you have to watch out for.

Are you suspisious of cars, and screwdrivers? They can be used in harmful ways just like the Bible can be.

We have no issue. As long as people don't tell me what to read I won't tell them what not to.

 

[PerseusStoned]

i thought my emoticon made it pretty clear that i was kidding.

Yes, but no such emoticon exists here:

one thing is certain, in an amoral society he would have been smothered at birth instead of given wheels and a talk box. so in a sense, mr. hawking owes his life to his non-existent god.

Your implication is clearly that without "his [and your] non-existent god" our society would kill babies. It is clearly not a "certain" thing given that atheism is on the rise, yet intentional smothering of babies is not.

 

[Plotinus]

Some hypotheses to continue this conversation. Respond as you like...


HYPOTHESIS #1
The vast majority of human beings require some kind of belief in a higher power or powers in order to function as moral, civil creatures. Therefore, organized religion plays a valuable role even in modern life.

HYPOTHESIS #2
A religious life is more fulfilling than a nonreligious life. Therefore, those who truly believe in a religion are luckier and better off than those who do not.

COROLLARY TO HYPOTHESIS #2
Skeptics of religion should still be able to recognize that a religious life would be more fulfilling. Skeptics should therefore make every effort to overcome their skepticism and join a religious movement of their choosing.


just stirring the pot...

 

[lwien]

HYPOTHESIS #1
The vast majority of human beings require some kind of belief in a higher power or powers in order to function as moral, civil creatures. Therefore, organized religion plays a valuable role even in modern life.

I don't believe that a vast majority of human beings require some kind of belief in a higher power in order to function as moral, civil creatures. I do believe, however, that a vast majority of human beings believe in a higher power for other reasons, with the main one being the fear that death results in total oblivion.

HYPOTHESIS #2
A religious life is more fulfilling than a nonreligious life. Therefore, those who truly believe in a religion are luckier and better off than those who do not.

Don't believe this either. One can have a very fulfilling life without being religious at all and for some, may even result in a more fulfilling life knowing that this life is all there is.

COROLLARY TO HYPOTHESIS #2
Skeptics of religion should still be able to recognize that a religious life would be more fulfilling. Skeptics should therefore make every effort to overcome their skepticism and join a religious movement of their choosing.

I don't believe that skeptics "should" believe that a religious life would be more fulfilling, but rather they should have empathy for those that do.

 

[vapirtoo]

A Krishnamurti joke:
The devil and a friend are walking on a road when they see
someone up ahead pick up something that makes a wonderful golden glow.
The friend asks the devil, "what is that?"
The devil replies, "he has found the truth".
The friend then says, "isn't that a problem for you?"
The devil says, " Oh no I'm going to help him organize it."

 

[Budz Bunny]

HYPOTHESIS #1
The vast majority of human beings require some kind of belief in a higher power or powers in order to function as moral, civil creatures. Therefore, organized religion plays a valuable role even in modern life.

I don't believe that a vast majority of human beings require some kind of belief in a higher power in order to function as moral, civil creatures. I do believe, however, that a vast majority of human beings believe in a higher power for other reasons, with the main one being the fear that death results in total oblivion.

HYPOTHESIS #2
A religious life is more fulfilling than a nonreligious life. Therefore, those who truly believe in a religion are luckier and better off than those who do not.

Don't believe this either. One can have a very fulfilling life without being religious at all and for some, may even result in a more fulfilling life knowing that this life is all there is.

COROLLARY TO HYPOTHESIS #2
Skeptics of religion should still be able to recognize that a religious life would be more fulfilling. Skeptics should therefore make every effort to overcome their skepticism and join a religious movement of their choosing.

I don't believe that skeptics "should" believe that a religious life would be more fulfilling, but rather they should have empathy for those that do.

Well I really dont need to respond, because lwein pretty much read my mind. I could certainly make an arguement that a nonreligious life is more fullfilling than a religious life. From a non-organized religion standpoint, how much time is wasted worshiping by followers that could be spent helping in the community, mentoring kids, etc? If you live life like it could all be over at any time, with no regrets, with nothing at the end but your legacy, you look at things differently.

Jessie Ventura (not someone I usually quote) once said that religion is a crutch for weak-minded individuals. When I first heard that I thought that was a stupid thing to say. It now makes sense to me, although he could have worded it different.

I understand why people want to believe, but I can't just make myself believe something I dont.

Can you make yourself believe something???

 

[lwien]

Jessie Ventura (not someone I usually quote) once said that religion is a crutch for weak-minded individuals.

See, I think that that's a statement from a very weak-minded individual, for if he wasn't, he would have the capability to understand that believing or not believing in a religion has nothing to do with strength or weakness and that what is really important in that regard is to have empathy for those that have different beliefs than you. He is doing the exact same thing as those that say that if you don't believe in the same religion as I, you are wrong.

The way I see it, I could give a hoot what anyone believes or doesn't believe in, as long as he/she is not causing any harm to anyone else and as long as they don't try and push their beliefs on me.

With that being said, though, I still love to listen to Bill Maher when he gets on his anti-religious rants 'cause his analogies are really hilarious.

 

[Plotinus]

I understand why people want to believe, but I can't just make myself believe something I dont.

Can you make yourself believe something???

What an interesting question.

I guess I found myself focusing less on the strength of the arguments for or against these positions, and more on the effects and consequences of belief or nonbelief. To me it seems like this is the next logical question for anyone, whether he has chosen belief or nonbelief.

Budz, true geniuses have written so many books struggling to answer the question you pose. Were you casting it aside as obvious, or bringing it up genuinely?

 

[lwien]

deleted by me.

 

[lwien]

Can you make yourself believe something???

".....with a little help from your friends"
--Lennon/McCartney (and I can't forget Cocker)

(prerequisites)

 

[Beezleb]

Nah, in many cases the true cause of conflicts with religion has nothing genuinely to do the conflict itself.

I see religion as management tool for masses of people. We dont see it so much these days as compared to days long past because we have things like politics and the like which did not exist then. All that was back in the day is religion and that is still common in some areas that do not have modern technology and ideas.

Religion is a tool, I see it as a nothing more than a management concept not that much different in theory to say quality or total quality management concepts.

The way I see it. I am gonna find out if their is or not a god. It is one secret we all get to learn and until the end or if their is truly a rapture or what have you than I am going to live my life believing in nature.

 

[SSS]

i thought my emoticon made it pretty clear that i was kidding.

Yes, but no such emoticon exists here:

one thing is certain, in an amoral society he would have been smothered at birth instead of given wheels and a talk box. so in a sense, mr. hawking owes his life to his non-existent god.

Your implication is clearly that without "his [and your] non-existent god" our society would kill babies. It is clearly not a "certain" thing given that atheism is on the rise, yet intentional smothering of babies is not.

no, intentional smothering of babies is not on the rise. however, the abortion of children with deformities, genetic defects and the "wrong" sex are on the rise. i'm not trying to debate abortion either. it's just a fact that more people are aborting children that don't fit a certain mold. for example, fetuses are screened for down's syndrome while they can still be legally aborted. no doubt hawking has a great mind but who knows what great minds have been extinguished before birth due to an unseemly genetic predisposition?

 

[hemp;)goofy8cheerio]

dehumanizing process the first step was to distort the image of us as human beings in order to justify that which they wanted to do and not even feel like they had done anything wrong. Those advocates of taking life prior to birth do not call it killing or murder, they call it abortion. They further never talk about aborting a baby because that would imply something human. Rather they talk about aborting the fetus. Fetus sounds less than human and therefore abortion can be justified".

Jackson's massive flip-flop on the abortion issue is further proof that his political future is far more important to him than are his principles. frum Rev Childress sites learninc.org

In his Letter from a Birmingham Jail, Martin Luther King said, "The early church brought an end to such things as INFANTICIDE." What would Martin Luther King say to the church today?

 

[Budz Bunny]

I understand why people want to believe, but I can't just make myself believe something I dont.

Can you make yourself believe something???

Budz, true geniuses have written so many books struggling to answer the question you pose. Were you casting it aside as obvious, or bringing it up genuinely?

Well I think that the only way you can make yourself believe something intangible, is to deny any evidence to the contrary.

I like to think of it from the outside in. I think that most likely life is not unique to earth. Alien life may not be what we are used to, but in my mind I am 99% sure it exists. There is just too much out there for us to be the only ones. Well thats leaves me thinking that the religions of our planet kinda seem silly. It may be possible that we will never be able to physically encounter other life, if travel at speeds greater then light is not possible, but most of what we thought incomprehensible 50 years ago is the norm today.

I guess science is my religion. I can make a leap of faith and believe that there is life somewhere else in the universe without any conclusive evidence, but I just can not bring myself to believe in the biblical god. Anyone still reading this?

 

[Happycamper]

ok, i was wrong about hawking. he should have been ground into dog food in his 20's.

and maybe some other culture would have made a dude in a wheelchair and a talk box a living god like the ewoks did to c3po in return of the jedi.

...

hawking has reversed his theories so many times i get the impression that he is more celebrity than scientist these days.

Man, whats wrong with you? I'm all for open mindness, but you can't honestly advocate killing a person just because you don't agree with their scientific views?

i thought my emoticon made it pretty clear that i was kidding.

Of course. Heh... (slow)

 

[PerseusStoned]

no, intentional smothering of babies is not on the rise. however, the abortion of children with deformities, genetic defects and the "wrong" sex are on the rise. i'm not trying to debate abortion either. it's just a fact that more people are aborting children that don't fit a certain mold. ...

Which has absolutely nothing to do with your point:

one thing is certain, in an amoral society he would have been smothered at birth instead of given wheels and a talk box.

Not sure where this abortion tangent came from.

 

[SSS]

Man, whats wrong with you? I'm all for open mindness, but you can't honestly advocate killing a person just because you don't agree with their scientific views?

i thought my emoticon made it pretty clear that i was kidding.

Of course. Heh... (slow)

still crying over the ass whooping i gave you on your propaganda thread? btw, two snarky comments directed towards me on this thread but absolutely nothing regarding the topic. you must feel proud of yourself.

 

[SSS]

no, intentional smothering of babies is not on the rise. however, the abortion of children with deformities, genetic defects and the "wrong" sex are on the rise. i'm not trying to debate abortion either. it's just a fact that more people are aborting children that don't fit a certain mold. ...

Which has absolutely nothing to do with your point:

one thing is certain, in an amoral society he would have been smothered at birth instead of given wheels and a talk box.

Not sure where this abortion tangent came from.

abortion and religion. do i really need to walk you through this topic?

 

[Happycamper]

You've been around enough now for people to see that beneath your surface is mainly shit.

Modnote: No flaming, last warning.

 

[SSS]

You've been around enough now for people to see that beneath your surface is mainly shit.

that's some great commentary on the topic at hand. you're really showing your stuff here!