Speculation about how vapour clouds form

[pakalolo]

This thread was created from a derail in the Crafty thread.

My understanding is that clouds (thick vapour) are a product of heat, nothing else. The method used to administer that heat doesn't matter. The "vapour" we all love is actually not a true vapour, it is a mix of gases, aerosols, and particulates. Basically, more heat means more energy means more particulate means more nuclei for the gases to condense on creating aerosols and thus clouds.

 

[DMPesso]

Experiment with 1 full bowl of OG Kush in the Crafty left to cook.

Experiment started at 14h06 with a fully charged battery

14h14: ABV after 5 x 1 mins sessions @180° (5 out of 6 bars left on battery)

14h22: ABV after 5 x 1 mins sessions @210° (4 out of 6 bars left on battery)

Well say no more I guess, get on that beast and suck it all out before it beats you to it.

I like your experiment but was the point of this experiment to prove the crafty will cook the bud even without inhaling? I think this is a good thing because no way we would be able to get clouds without busting a lung if it was just convection like the volcano. To get clouds you really do need to add some conduction in there, it just makes sense. Look at the minivap for example. Probably the best convection portable out there and it can't produce clouds like the crafty can even if it tried. Of course it will taste better and be healthier and a more true vape experience but who gives a crap. Aren't most of us after the maximum clouds possible without combusting?

 

[kimura]

no way we would be able to get clouds without busting a lung if it was just convection like the volcano. To get clouds you really do need to add some conduction in there, it just makes sense

This is completely false. Pure convection can provide massive clouds. According to S&B, the bowl heats up so the vapor is instantly available. This is where the conduction and radiation come into play. If the load is cold when you start your draw you may have to wait a few seconds for the load to heat up and start producing vapor. Which is exactly what you see in my crafty convection vid a few pages back

I think S&B designed the Mighty & Crafty this way so that they could be enjoyed by everybody, not just folks with big healthy lungs. a pure convection vape like the miniVAP does require decent lung power to bring out it's potential, IMO

 

[lwien]

I think this is a good thing because no way we would be able to get clouds without busting a lung if it was just convection......To get clouds you really do need to add some conduction in there, it just makes sense.

Tell that to my LSV.

As kimura stated above, you can get massive clouds from 100% convection based vaporizers and there does not need to be ANY conduction going on to get those massive clouds instantly.

 

[mitchgo61]

Tell that to my LSV.

As kimura stated above, you can get massive clouds from 100% convection based vaporizers and there does not need to be ANY conduction going on to get those massive clouds instantly.

Or my SSV...or my VTE...or my FFs. Pure convection vapes all, herb never gets near the heat source...and all produce massive clouds. (And occasionally charred bits, so they must be inferior devices despite their popularity, right?)

The Mighty and Crafty threads both seem to inhabit some through-the-looking-glass universe where the widely acknowledged and documented effects of conduction vs. convection just don't hold true. Apparently these devices really do get you awfully stoned.

 

[lwien]

The Mighty and Crafty threads both seem to inhabit some through-the-looking-glass universe where the widely acknowledged and documented effects of conduction vs. convection just don't hold true.

I think what we're seeing in those threads are quotes from some users who have not had a lot of experience with other vaporizers so they are drawing some conclusions that are just not accurate.
This seems to happen more in the S&B, Pax and pen vape camps than users of other vaporizers or at least, to me, it seems to be that way.

 

[oli]

I like your experiment but was the point of this experiment to prove the crafty will cook the bud even without inhaling? I think this is a good thing because no way we would be able to get clouds without busting a lung if it was just convection like the volcano. To get clouds you really do need to add some conduction in there, it just makes sense. Look at the minivap for example. Probably the best convection portable out there and it can't produce clouds like the crafty can even if it tried. Of course it will taste better and be healthier and a more true vape experience but who gives a crap. Aren't most of us after the maximum clouds possible without combusting?

I did it cause it had to be done some day but not out to prove anything, purely as an observation and to get you guys started

 

[GR]

Stoned people getting their facts messed up, what is the world coming to? Lol

Maybe facts are getting messed up here and there but the fact is the Crafty/Mighty does a great job of extracting your herbs with big tasty clouds or small sips, and it seems most that own one can agree on that.

 

[DMPesso]

Tell that to my LSV.

As kimura stated above, you can get massive clouds from 100% convection based vaporizers and there does not need to be ANY conduction going on to get those massive clouds instantly.

That's what I
Meant. You need lungs of a swimmer to get a cloud convection compared to conduction. It would not perform nearly as well all convec

I think what we're seeing in those threads are quotes from some users who have not had a lot of experience with other vaporizers so they are drawing some conclusions that are just not accurate.
This seems to happen more in the S&B, Pax and pen vape camps than users of other vaporizers or at least, to me, it seems to be that way.

Trust me I tried them all except Minivap. I have the volvano as well. It is ALOT harder to get a cloud from convection and requires wayyy more technique and lung effort then the crafty. Even the volcano doesnt get me as high as the crafty because the slight conduction makes for stronger effect !

 

[lwien]

You need lungs of a swimmer to get a cloud convection compared to conduction.

Pesso, I can't state it strongly enough that I totally disagree you. I am 70 years old. My lungs are FAR from being the lungs of a young swimmer and I can get MASSIVE clouds from my LSV with hardly any effort at all being that there is barely any draw restriction what so ever.

You don't need to have ANY conduction going on to produce vapor clouds and it can be accomplished with minimum lung power with very little technique from a vaporizer that is 100% convection. I'm not stating opinion here. I am stating fact.

 

[mestizo]

Pesso, I can't state it strongly enough that I totally disagree you. I am 70 years old. My lungs are FAR from being the lungs of a young swimmer and I can get MASSIVE clouds from my LSV with hardly any effort at all being that there is barely any draw restriction what so ever.

You don't need to have ANY conduction going on to produce vapor clouds and it can be accomplished with minimum lung power and very little technique from a vaporizer that is 100% convection. I'm not stating opinion here. I am stating fact.

Agreed,
Another good example are log vapes.

 

[tjsop]

Here we can see that S&B didn't choose the default temperatures by random.

Toxic vapor begins at 401°F (205°C)

More info to know at what temp to vap, no need to go high in fact.

1: 122°F ( 50°C)
2: 365°F (185°C)
3: 374°F (190°C)
4: 383°F (195°C)
5: 392°F (200°C)
6: 401°F (205°C)
7: 410°F (210°C)

Delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC)
Boiling point: 157*C / 314.6 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Euphoriant, Analgesic, Antiinflammatory, Antioxidant, Antiemetic

cannabidiol (CBD)
Boiling point: 160-180*C / 320-356 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Anxiolytic, Analgesic, Antipsychotic, Antiinflammatory, Antioxidant, Antispasmodic

Cannabinol (CBN)
Boiling point: 185*C / 365 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Oxidation, breakdown, product, Sedative, Antibiotic

cannabichromene (CBC)
Boiling point: 220*C / 428 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Antiinflammatory, Antibiotic, Antifungal

cannabigerol (CBG)
Boiling point: MP52
Properties: Antiinflammatory, Antibiotic, Antifungal

?-8-tetrahydrocannabinol (?-8-THC)
Boiling point: 175-178*C / 347-352.4 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Resembles Delta-9-THC, Less psychoactive, More stable Antiemetic

tetrahydrocannabivarin (THCV)
Boiling point: < 220*C / <428 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Analgesic, Euphoriant

Src : http://www.whatsyourvapetemp.com/whats-your-vape-temp/
http://www.whatsyourvapetemp.com/best-temp-to-vape-weed/

 

[stickstones]

Trust me I tried them all except Minivap.

It is ALOT harder to get a cloud from convection

Toxic vapor begins at 401°F (205°C)

There's so much bullshit in this thread I have to get a shovel...

 

[Mr. Gweilo 420]

There's so much bullshit in this thread I have to get a shovel...

I use my Crafty at 210c all the time. Is there any truth this statement about toxic vapor? Im in trouble if its true

 

[stickstones]

I would have been dead years ago. It can only be toxic in the most literal sense of the word. Certainly not in the common understanding of being imminently deadly.

But this thread is becoming derail heaven...

 

[lwien]

But this thread is becoming derail heaven...

I know, Sticks but how in the hell can I refrain from responding to statements that are just not true. They really do need to be called out on this so others, lurkers included, won't get a takeaway that doesn't hold water.

Both of those guys that you quoted above have previously made other statements that were as equally outrageous as the ones you quoted.

 

[stickstones]

I know, dude...you can't help yourself.

 

[lwien]

I know, dude...you can't help yourself.

I know. I get out of fucking control when I see shit like this, even if it's a derail. I just get this image of newbie lurkers looking at those posts without any rebuttals and taking them as true, and making purchasing decisions based on false information.

Edit: Fuck, now I'm repeating myself. I think I need some vapor at toxic temps.

 

[stickstones]

Be careful!

 

[mitchgo61]

There's so much bullshit in this thread I have to get a shovel...

 

[mestizo]

Hahahaha.
@stickstones and @lwien those last two comments made my day.

 

[DorianGray]

I know, Sticks but how in the hell can I refrain from responding to statements that are just not true. They really do need to be called out on this so others, lurkers included, won't get a takeaway that doesn't hold water.

Both of those guys that you quoted above have previously made other statements that were as equally outrageous as the ones you quoted.

We appreciate you stepping in to drop some knowledge.

 

[lwien]

We appreciate you stepping in to drop some knowledge.

In this medium, it's sometimes so damn hard to tell if someone is giving you a serious compliment or being sarcastic, but I'm gonna go out on a limb with the possibility of looking like a dumbass and take it as a compliment and say...........thank you.

 

[DMPesso]

Pesso, I can't state it strongly enough that I totally disagree you. I am 70 years old. My lungs are FAR from being the lungs of a young swimmer and I can get MASSIVE clouds from my LSV with hardly any effort at all being that there is barely any draw restriction what so ever.

You don't need to have ANY conduction going on to produce vapor clouds and it can be accomplished with minimum lung power with very little technique from a vaporizer that is 100% convection. I'm not stating opinion here. I am stating fact.

Yea you may be right but for that size I think all convection wouldnt be possible if they wanted the same results and ease of use. there has to be a reason s and b went with the half half because it would probably take at least 5-10
More seconds for the same cloud if there wasn't any conduction going on

Full session at 210 for last taste of the night so great. Next time going to do this with the mango, that makes me sleepy even at lower temps.

I put in a new oil pad today, couldnt pick up on any metal taste.

Crafty doing well for over a month

I was thinking about trying that as well since I enjoy the clouds way more on full temp and for some weird reason I find it less harsh when I flip it to full temp. You did it start to finish at full temp? How was the beginning? Do you like that better then starting at a lower temp? Also do you use a fine grind or regular?

Me as well. Around 20 hours here. I also sometimes get the never shutoff / blinking mode. I kinda see why they put reset button in this thing. It's not only for the presets d'oh.

Pardon my ignorance but how do you reset the crafty?

 

[pakalolo]

Here we can see that S&B didn't choose the default temperatures by random.

Toxic vapor begins at 401°F (205°C)

More info to know at what temp to vap, no need to go high in fact.

1: 122°F ( 50°C)
2: 365°F (185°C)
3: 374°F (190°C)
4: 383°F (195°C)
5: 392°F (200°C)
6: 401°F (205°C)
7: 410°F (210°C)

Delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC)
Boiling point: 157*C / 314.6 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Euphoriant, Analgesic, Antiinflammatory, Antioxidant, Antiemetic

cannabidiol (CBD)
Boiling point: 160-180*C / 320-356 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Anxiolytic, Analgesic, Antipsychotic, Antiinflammatory, Antioxidant, Antispasmodic

Cannabinol (CBN)
Boiling point: 185*C / 365 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Oxidation, breakdown, product, Sedative, Antibiotic

cannabichromene (CBC)
Boiling point: 220*C / 428 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Antiinflammatory, Antibiotic, Antifungal

cannabigerol (CBG)
Boiling point: MP52
Properties: Antiinflammatory, Antibiotic, Antifungal

?-8-tetrahydrocannabinol (?-8-THC)
Boiling point: 175-178*C / 347-352.4 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Resembles Delta-9-THC, Less psychoactive, More stable Antiemetic

tetrahydrocannabivarin (THCV)
Boiling point: < 220*C / <428 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Analgesic, Euphoriant

Src : http://www.whatsyourvapetemp.com/whats-your-vape-temp/
http://www.whatsyourvapetemp.com/best-temp-to-vape-weed/

I hate these lists and charts because the lead to massive misunderstanding of how vapourization works. Most people assume that the temperatures are binary, so at 400°F (204.5°C) you're safe from benzene, but at 401°F (205°C) OMFG toxic! No.

The boiling point is actually the temperature beyond which the compound is no longer able to exist as a liquid. Long before anything reaches the boiling point, lots of vapour has been created. Now here's the kicker. The boiling point of benzene is absurdly low: 176°F (80°C). If there is benzene you are not avoiding it by staying below 401°F (205°C). I have investigated this idea numerous times and it always leads back to that Geiringer study where he mentions finding benzene forming. This has caused innumerable panics about "toxic" vapor. Since he never quantifies what he found, we can't be sure how much there was. The chart above is irresponsible IMO because it actually warns of high benzene levels when in fact no quantity was ever given.