Speculation about how vapour clouds form

[Madcap79]

 

[RastaBuddhaTao]

Thanks for the post guys and sorry I didn't read for my self. I was reading through fast to catch up... I will stay up to speed from now on. Thanks for the insight on the FF. I am surprised at the results of your testing and I am impressed by the level of testing that goes on her at FC. So many smart, passionate people here!

I was one of the testers.

The FF takes a lot of flak for its supposed learning curve and shitty battery life (don't think I don't notice! ) - neither of which I agree with - but I am certain in my mind it's very, very, very nearly if not all convection.

I'm particularly sensitive to conduction - especially the taste - and I've been using the FF for over a year and never once believed or sensed any discernible conduction was going on.

Of course, I also believe I can taste the difference between butter and "I Can't Believe It's Not Butter," so take it all for what it's worth. I'm also a lowlife drunk with an ax to grind and a chip on my shoulder.

I also believe the neighbor's dog talks to me.

.... Oh yeah, convection makes awesome clouds! I seen 'em! I seen 'em!

ha ha ha o that is so funny! I love the firefly and although never owned one studied it and the founders when I was developing the patent for the Zion. Love the retro styling. Kinda inspired me to go old school wood and glass with my unit. Love the glass load chamber and snap on lid with cooling channels... battery life is a bitch with convection I know lol... I am fighting had to keep every joule of heat in the flow stream to squeeze out any efficiency I can

 

[PPN]

Did you notice some vape produce white vapor in the bubbler but really whispy while exhaling (i.e inhalaters, T-Vape,..) and others don't milk your bubbler at all but, while exhaling, is producing large clouds (ESV, MV, HA...)....

That's true only on the beginning of a session, I think....

 

[Seek]

Did you notice some vape produce white vapor in the bubbler but really whispy while exhaling (i.e inhalaters, T-Vape,..) and others don't milk your bubbler at all but, while exhaling, is producing large clouds (ESV, MV, HA...)....

I can get both outcomes from a single vape. When I pull slowly on my EVO, i get the first case, when I pull fast, I get the second one.
Probably caused by airflow speed, making different particle sizes within the vapor.
I can't tell which vapor is more potent, both get me subjectively equally stoned.

 

[Winegums]

I just got my herbie last night and with a half pea size chunk of shatter my bubbler was full of thick vapour. I had it set at 430*F for the sedative effects and I slept better than I have in weeks!

Convection definitely can produce clouds. You just need lots of surface area so more material can vapourize at the same time. It also helps to run at higher temperatures and have a way of cooling the vapour down. After all cool dense air + more cannabinoids being released = denser vapour.

 

[Marctraider]

This thread was created from a derail in the Crafty thread.

My understanding is that clouds (thick vapour) are a product of heat, nothing else. The method used to administer that heat doesn't matter. The "vapour" we all love is actually not a true vapour, it is a mix of gases, aerosols, and particulates. Basically, more heat means more energy means more particulate means more nuclei for the gases to condense on creating aerosols and thus clouds.

vapour is produced by extracting water molecules from material

 

[lwien]

 

[EverythingsHazy]

vapour is produced by extracting water molecules from material

The water vapor is produced that way. However, you can get huge clouds out of bud with no water in it. The clouds will just be made of tiny particles of cannabinoids and other chemicals from the plant.

va·por
noun
1.
a substance diffused or suspended in the air, especially one normally liquid or solid.

That's why vapor clouds can feel very "dry" sometimes.

If it was just water that made clouds, putting a drop of water on the bud in between hits, would give you as many huge clouds as you wanted.

 

[KidFated.]

Your proving my point EXACTLY your comparing something that's 4 times the size of the crafty. I HAD SAID FOR THE SIZE YOU CAN NOT MAKE A COMPARABLE CONVECTION ONLY VAPE AND EXPECT IT TO PERFORM THE SAME AS THE CRAFTY. I'm sure you can get clouds with all convection but if the VAPE were the same size as the crafty I don't think it would be possible to achieve the same results in such a small portable device.

Lotus?

 

[howie105]

On a case by case discussion of vapes and their cloud production you have to factor in the user. Some folks just can't make any vape work and some folks can get the best possible results out of most any vape they have a history with. Most of us fit somewhere in that range but skill is seldom included in the majority of vape performance discussions.

 

[pakalolo]

...skill is seldom included in the majority of vape performance discussions.

I agree with most of what you say, but this part isn't quite accurate. It comes up regularly under the guise of "learning curve". When someone new to vaping is looking for help, you'll often see a device recommended or not depending on how much skill it requires. I quibble, however. Your point is excellent.

 

[SavedByTheVape]

I utterly concur @howie105 and @pakalolo !! Skill is often neglected from these discussions and it is surprisingly still very difficult (despite all of the amazing upturns in tech and cannabis these days) to find vapes that are super user friendly, don't require a steep learning curve, and where relatively anyone (especially newbs included) can pick it up and enjoy awesome vapor experiences without having to struggle to learn and adjust.

 

[stickstones]

Skill is huge and something we should pay more attention to, @howie105 , and I appreciate your putting it into words so well.

The LSV and the HI have brought up terms like being a Jedi with them, JedHI, for example. I have been guilty of too quickly modding vapes before mastering their basic techniques, something I try to avoid now. I find myself very frequently telling new users of a vape to get the basics down first, then mod. Skill is the perfect term I will use for those moments. Thanks!

 

[hoptimum]

Along with skill, I would add experience. Once you figure out the destination of vaporizing and master how to reach it on one vaporizer, you'll know better what to expect from subsequent vaporizers.

 

[lwien]

You just gotta be one with your vape.

For us guys, it's kinda like finding what turns her on. Does she like a lot of foreplay or does she like to get to it like............now !!!. Does she like slow, soft caresses or does she like it hard and fast. Does she like little nips around her ear lobe or does she like you to forcibly stick your tongue so far in her ear that you can lick her eardrum.

When you first get your new vape, treat her like you're on your first date. Take the time to know her. Find out how she likes to be treated and she WILL return the favor in kind.

It goes without saying that they're all different. Just because your current modus operandi worked with one does not mean it will work for another, be they vaporizers or be they you're partners, companions or your newest fling.

As hop said above, they do share some basics but it's in the fine details where they can really shine.

 

[RUDE BOY]

Lotus?

Ubie !

 

[herbivore21]

Wait, this thread is still going? Take a big hit off of any given vaporizer that uses all convection and answer the nominal question instantly!

 

[Stu]

When you first get your new vape, treat her like you're on your first date.

Thanks for the advice! I just followed it and have ruined the finish of my new Haze. Who knew that a little chloroform would mess it up so bad?

 

[nondarb]

Thanks for the advice! I just followed it and have ruined the finish of my new Haze. Who knew that a little chloroform would mess it up so bad?

It was probably what you did after the chloroform that ruined the finish!

 

[lwien]

Thanks for the advice! I just followed it and have ruined the finish of my new Haze. Who knew that a little chloroform would mess it up so bad?

Hey Stu. As long as you aren't screaming, "Hey, you're doing it wrong !!" to your left hand, you're good to go. (unless of course, you're left handed, in which case, you'd be questioning your right hand)

Which brings up the question, why do right handed people..............??? Never thought about that before.

 

[herbivore21]

Thanks for the advice! I just followed it and have ruined the finish of my new Haze. Who knew that a little chloroform would mess it up so bad?

Come on bro we can't be promoting the use of other drugs here lol

 

[RastaBuddhaTao]

So I've been doing some experiments running e-liquid in a convection vaporizer and have had some interesting observations. I noticed that draw speed has a big effect. It's a voltage controlled device so one would assume less cloud with a faster flow rate but I am finding the opposite. Can it be that the vacuum created by the user suction is dropping the vapor pressure to create more vapor. Different users will have different lung capacity and draw strength which can be a big variable. @pakalolo we discussed this a bit in the past... What's your take?

 

[Hashtag46&2]

So I've been doing some experiments running e-liquid in a convection vaporizer and have had some interesting observations. I noticed that draw speed has a big effect. It's a voltage controlled device so one would assume less cloud with a faster flow rate but I am finding the opposite. Can it be that the vacuum created by the user suction is dropping the vapor pressure to create more vapor. Different users will have different lung capacity and draw strength which can be a big variable. @pakalolo we discussed this a bit in the past... What's your take?

I think you hit the proverbial nail on the head!

Creating a vacuum will drop boiling/Vapor points due to the negative atmospheric pressure.

Water will boil at room temperature in a vacuum chamber.
Edit:
An example of this is dabbing with a traditional nail/dome setup, after the dab is applied to the nail, if thermal transfer is insufficient there will be a pool of oil left in the cup of the nail, however if you put your thumb over the dome hole, it creates a vacuum, the rig will white-wall and the remaining oil vaporizes.

 

[funkyjunky]

So I've been doing some experiments running e-liquid in a convection vaporizer and have had some interesting observations. I noticed that draw speed has a big effect. It's a voltage controlled device so one would assume less cloud with a faster flow rate but I am finding the opposite. Can it be that the vacuum created by the user suction is dropping the vapor pressure to create more vapor. Different users will have different lung capacity and draw strength which can be a big variable. @pakalolo we discussed this a bit in the past... What's your take?

I think you hit the proverbial nail on the head!

Creating a vacuum will drop boiling/Vapor points due to the negative atmospheric pressure.

Water will boil at room temperature in a vacuum chamber.
Edit:
An example of this is dabbing with a traditional nail/dome setup, after the dab is applied to the nail, if thermal transfer is insufficient there will be a pool of oil left in the cup of the nail, however if you put your thumb over the dome hole, it creates a vacuum, the rig will white-wall and the remaining oil vaporizes.

the underpressure created by drawing hard(er) might have some influence. i found the following.

(http://skunkpharmresearch.com/vacuum-equipment-and-process-tips/)

here i found that the human lung can create up to 58cmH2O=9,5kPa pressure difference.

ambient pressure is around 101.4kPa (top of the table,157C/315F). so we end up at around 92kPa, estimate from the table is around 154C/309F. the boiling point of thc is lowered at max 3degree celsius .
im pretty sure that the 10kPa under pressure were with closed end (water being sucked through a straw) and not with an open air path somewhere, meaning the pressure decrease with a vape is never this high.

heat is transfered through an air flow, liters/minutes for example. lower draw rates might not cool down the temperature of the stream so much but also only little mass is moved compared to high draw rates where maybe a bit colder air is transported in more amounts.
i think that also means if you draw faster you take more air/vapor maybe thats where the bigger cloud comes from

 

[RastaBuddhaTao]

@funkyjunky that's for the killer data! Agreed the net effect of the vacuum isn't a primary variable in the equation. It's more of the net energy applied that is the big driver in vapor liberation. One of the effects that you could call a user variable is load grind / pack density. If a device has a low pressure drop become and after the load than the load itself is the primary driver of the pressure drop. A low surface area (course grind) low pressure drop (free flowing)load will allow more air to pass bringing more heat mass deeper into the load. A fine grind will tend to settle and create a higher pressure drop situation slowing the flow rate and concentrating the heat at the heater side of the load. This creates a less uniform heat profile through the load along the direction of the flow but creates the highest level of vacuum giving the biggest vapor pressure reduction. This also creates a more uniform heat distribution in the load as laminar drag effects at the wall that cause the classic dark brown center and green edges that causes us to stir.

So although the direct effect of reducing the boiling point is small the overall effects to the total system can be big IMO.