bump ... it's relevant to another silicone safety thread running right now. ... temperature isn't the only factor
spallation
- Thread starter Hippie Dickie
- Start date
biohacker
H.R.E.A.M
fuck my life, so now i'm back to boycotting silicone? The herbalizer is the only vape that has made me appreciate tubing and bags again, and now I gotta toss 'em to be safe. Rather err on the side of caution with this one, unless there is ample evidence that it is in fact safe for inhalation.
zor
Well-Known Member
Unless I'm missing something, isn't the fear of spallation a moot point since all we do is apply relatively light suction on one end of the tube? We aren't pumping or applying excessive force at all (well, I'm not at any rate!).
I'm not sure why you'd havr to ditch silicone especially after @onigiri's excellent posts.
I'm not sure why you'd havr to ditch silicone especially after @onigiri's excellent posts.
zor
Well-Known Member
I'd think it would help to look at how the aquarium pump works, as compared to the aforementioned peristaltic pump. Spallation occurs from the bending and friction induced by the peristalsis action which may or may not be how your pump operates. http://pets.thenest.com/aquarium-pump-work-8082.html
I was referring to using a silicone tube with my SSV
I was referring to using a silicone tube with my SSV
Buildozer
Baked & Fried
As is, I'm not the biggest fan of using silicone tubing for vaping anyway (not against it though), and it has nothing to do w/ the possibility of spallation occurring w/ our use.. Well before the fear of spallation (from our purposes) ever got to me, I'd already be avoiding it based on preference alone 
... IMO I don't see spallation as really being a threat to us as vaporists, and I really can't even think of any instance where the tubing is ever under any real abuse that (I'd imagine) would qualify it for spallation.. I'd imagine the build up of thick and sticky vapor resin would work to minimize the possibility too.. I'm not ever planning on using any dried-up, beat-up old tubing, so I have no concerns as it applies to my use.. I am glad it was brought up though, since I'd never heard about it until today.. Definitely good to know. 
... IMO I don't see spallation as really being a threat to us as vaporists, and I really can't even think of any instance where the tubing is ever under any real abuse that (I'd imagine) would qualify it for spallation.. I'd imagine the build up of thick and sticky vapor resin would work to minimize the possibility too.. I'm not ever planning on using any dried-up, beat-up old tubing, so I have no concerns as it applies to my use.. I am glad it was brought up though, since I'd never heard about it until today.. Definitely good to know. 
herbivore21
Well-Known Member
There are a variety of potential problems with silicone as a material to vape through including but not limited to spallation, swelling (with contact from solvents or other liquids/gases that re-liquify during condensation that may touch the silicone) and thermal degradation (into nasties like ammonia et al.) etc.
I took all silicone out of my vape airpaths long ago and do not recommend using silicone at all any longer. I wanna echo what Hippie Dickie said regarding 'food grade' too and say that 'food grade' does not necessarily or even often mean good for vaping.
Please keep it to glass, inert metals, ceramics, quartz, sapphire etc where possible. I can see a time coming when regulation finally hits the vape market in various locals and a lot of vapes start disappearing off the market. I hope for and look forward to this day!
This is not to say that every single device that uses silicone no matter how clean and no matter how frequently the silicone components (like a whip) are replaced will be necessarily harmful - but why take chances if there are other options and you have the means to eliminate this possibility? Especially if you are a medical user!
Do not be so sure that a coating of claim buildup on the silicone will not react with the silicone and cause risks either.
Remember, cannabis resin and flowers are full of a great many different compounds. Many compounds are likely to react via oxidation with even materials like silicone over time, especially some of those terps and especially where heat is brought into the equation!
I took all silicone out of my vape airpaths long ago and do not recommend using silicone at all any longer. I wanna echo what Hippie Dickie said regarding 'food grade' too and say that 'food grade' does not necessarily or even often mean good for vaping.
Please keep it to glass, inert metals, ceramics, quartz, sapphire etc where possible. I can see a time coming when regulation finally hits the vape market in various locals and a lot of vapes start disappearing off the market. I hope for and look forward to this day!
This is not to say that every single device that uses silicone no matter how clean and no matter how frequently the silicone components (like a whip) are replaced will be necessarily harmful - but why take chances if there are other options and you have the means to eliminate this possibility? Especially if you are a medical user!
Do not be so sure that a coating of claim buildup on the silicone will not react with the silicone and cause risks either.
Remember, cannabis resin and flowers are full of a great many different compounds. Many compounds are likely to react via oxidation with even materials like silicone over time, especially some of those terps and especially where heat is brought into the equation!
shredder
Well-Known Member
Words like, Potential, or likely don't cut it.
Now if there were some serious science on this I'd pay attention. But it does not seem to be there. And there are plenty of plastic medical devices all.around us. Common sense tells me were OK. Anything other than science, is just speculation.
Now if there were some serious science on this I'd pay attention. But it does not seem to be there. And there are plenty of plastic medical devices all.around us. Common sense tells me were OK. Anything other than science, is just speculation.
throwawaytre3s
Well-Known Member
.
How would you recommend I could do that with an EQ? Even the bag has a silicon whip to attach it to the elbow. Do you think that water filtration would help at all? I'm running my FW3 and my EQ and it's bags through my MFLB UFO, which uses a silicone tube to attach to the vape and to the UFO. Which means it's also running through water, which may pick up any silicone particles? However microscopic? Then the cooled vapor goes through some acrylic, which is relatively benign as long as there's no solvents.
herbivore21
Well-Known Member
Words like potential and likely are exactly the kinds you are likely to see in peer reviewed scientific reports sir. I don't know what science you've been reading?
My comments above are all taken from peer reviewed articles and I have linked to supporting articles for these claims in the past. I frequently cite journal articles and scholarly texts in my posts here.
You, on the other hand are arguing that there is an absence of evidence when in fact you have just not seen the evidence yourself. Here is the burning question: do you even have journal subscriptions to read the peer reviewed scientific evidence where it appears in the first place?
I am a paid, professional scientist, I do research and teach science (multiple disciplines at that!) for a living (as a college academic). I read the scholarly literature on a daily basis. What are your qualifications my friend?
Go to Google scholar and search separately for 'silicone swelling' 'silicone spallation' and 'silicone offgassing'. You will of course not be able to read the bulk of the search results because unfortunately, scientific articles are mostly only accessed by expensive subscriptions. Accessing a single article without subscription can easily attract costs of $30 or more per article!
Still, if you ever spot an article that interests you, drop me a line, I can give you the breakdown of what it is about and even supporting quotes from the article not to breach fair use.
@throwawaytre3s , that is a good question! I do not know that there is an answer in the literature yet, but I would not rule the possibility of water helping as you describe above to some extent. I can actually envision just the kind of experiment to test it! I need to buy me some equipment to do so myself though because I'd never be able to do such an experiment at work in a prohibition jurisdiction lol
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shredder
Well-Known Member
Words like potential and likely are exactly the kinds you are likely to see in peer reviewed scientific reports sir. I don't know what science you've been reading?
My comments above are all taken from peer reviewed articles and I have linked to supporting articles for these claims in the past. I frequently cite journal articles and scholarly texts in my posts here.
You, on the other hand are arguing that there is an absence of evidence when in fact you have just not seen the evidence yourself. Here is the burning question: do you even have journal subscriptions to read the peer reviewed scientific evidence where it appears in the first place?
I am a paid, professional scientist, I do research and teach science (multiple disciplines at that!) for a living (as a college academic). I read the scholarly literature on a daily basis. What are your qualifications my friend?
Go to Google scholar and search separately for 'silicone swelling' 'silicone spallation' and 'silicone offgassing'. You will of course not be able to read the bulk of the search results because unfortunately, scientific articles are mostly only accessed by expensive subscriptions. Accessing a single article without subscription can easily attract costs of $30 or more per article!
Still, if you ever spot an article that interests you, drop me a line, I can give you the breakdown of what it is about and even supporting quotes from the article not to breach fair use.
@throwawaytre3s , that is a good question! I do not know that there is an answer in the literature yet, but I would not rule the possibility of water helping as you describe above to some extent. I can actually envision just the kind of experiment to test it! I need to buy me some equipment to do so myself though because I'd never be able to do such an experiment at work in a prohibition jurisdiction lol
Well good, perhaps you can post evidence, not speculation here.
Scientific journal link :https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Journal_of_Advanced_Computer_Technology
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herbivore21
Well-Known Member
I am not sure why you are giving me a description of a wikipedia entry about a journal on topics unrelated to the topic at hand.
As I said, I've posted such evidence throughout FC, including on this topic.
With regard to concerns regarding spallation: Yes, there is a motor stressing the tubing on a number of dialysis machines (see http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01194802), however that blood is also much cooler than the aerosol we boil off of cannabis.
Moreover, whips get bent and twisted over time when used for vaporizing too - sure the rate at which this happens will be far less than that of dialysis machines with the abovementioned motors, and this rate of mechanical stress on vape whips will vary depending on the user - but this is going to loosen polymer particulates from the inner wall of the silicone part of the airpath in just the same way as in the article featured in the above link.
We may not be pumping fluid through vape whips to facilitate this deterioration process inside the whip, but we are sucking a hot aerosol through it instead. This aerosol includes degradation byproducts and terpene vapors, many of which can be harsh solvents in quite small concentrations!
The article above highlights that even medical silicon products are very susceptible to physical deterioration from lesser mechanical stressors than the dialysis pump machines too. Even implants have been known to have problems with deterioration.
Couple that with this article from Dow Corning (who remember, want to sell you this product and don't wanna warn you about anything unless it could get them into trouble!), warning that even the highest quality platinum cured medical silicones (this article is about implants and medical silicone tubing) is vulnerable to swelling from "lipids and nonpolar agents" (p.706, https://www.dowcorning.com.cn/zh_CN/content/publishedlit/52-1069-01.pdf) - like those found we boil off of our cannabis. Swelling is noted as an obvious means of physical deformation of the product over time, which gives way to familiar concerns regarding spallation.
I could go on, but I would hope you are starting to follow my argument - and I have paid work to do
All the best to you regardless of what you use though! If you must use silicone whips I can only suggest that you please at least replace it regularly and be careful not to mechanically stress the whip - even if some of this will inevitably happen over time. Also be aware that swelling induced deformation will occur from inhaled resins over time, which contain lipids and nonpolars (like d-limonene!).
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shredder
Well-Known Member
Your argument and cites are not for vapes, whips, or the stresses they may face are they? Apples and oranges. Your inferring is not relevant to our subject, its just confusing the subject.
My link was an example of scientific journals that I found telling, and humorous.
My link was an example of scientific journals that I found telling, and humorous.
RUDE BOY
Space is the Place
I couldn't agree with or like a post more then this one. Have any of you actually seen what the tubing from Dialysis looks like after you remove it from a pump after a session? The 4-6 inches in the pump comes out mangled and stretched out making the tubing much thinner than it was when starting. The pump crushes and pulls the tubing between rollers at decent enough pressure to break your fingers. Just how does using tubing as a whip on a vape compare in anyway at all to the abuse it takes being mechanically stretched out and crushed to the point that it changes shape( takes on a permanent U shape where it goes through the pump)?
MinnBobber
Well-Known Member
..........................................................
There may be other things to concern folks with using silicone tubing but spallation is NOT one of them IMO. Dialysis tubing probably gets more "stress" on it in one minute than your vape tubes get in 10 years of use.
herbivore21
Well-Known Member
Sorry man, but they are articles describing the same medical silicone (aka PDMS) tubes that are sold and touted by the big vape brands. This is not apples and oranges. This is exactly apples and apples and I chose these articles precisely because it is the same kind of silicone being discussed!
I didn't just infer, I simply provided the specifications as acknowledged by one of the main polymer manufacturers who makes PDMS products, and then backed it up further with independent literature. All reference to temperatures and what will stress and swell/deform the whip in terms of nonpolar solvents and lipids were supported in this fashion. The presence of nonpolar hydrocarbons in the form of terpenes as well as the presence of lipids in cannabis vapor are common knowledge to vaporists these days. These compounds are known to swell silicone as per the independent literature and manufacturer's own warnings. This is indisputable and if you do not follow what I am saying and accept these premises, this is as far as we can take this discussion together.
There are plenty of untested (by clinical experimentation) potential applications of existing materials that may push the materials beyond their respective tolerances. The absence of specific research to an emerging application does not stop scientists and engineers from using existing knowledge on the replicable and demonstrable properties of materials in question derived from other applications in the scholarly literature to make deductions or inferences like I have made above.
All the best to you.
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