Small ducted fan for portable bag-filling?

[Vape Donkey 650]

I know I can't be the first person that thought of this (maybe someone has already pulled this off successfully?)

I want a small, in-line electric ducted fan (EDF) that can turn many of my generic portable vapes into a portable volcano

Here's how: first, I need to source a ducted fan small yet powerful enough. with the fan being "ducted" in a small, self-contained, tubular enclosure, simply attach silicon tubes / hoses of the appropriate size to the fan duct. I can step up / step down the diameter of the tubing by inserting a smaller size tube into a larger one, if needed.

Then attach the suction side of the tubing to my crafty mouthpiece straw, for example, or the mouthpiece for my DT ceramic donut atomizers. On the exhaust end of my fan-tube: a glass stem with a volcano vapor bag. The whole tube/fan apparatus can be as short as 4-6" long, perhaps, not counting the bag and vaporizer....

I just need to rig up a way to power the motor when I power on my heated vaporizer (this part should be easy) and then I should be filling vapor bags away from an AC power source! Possible low-cfm / airflow through my fan-tube might make results underwhelming, maybe I can try 2 or more fans lined up in parallel to increase that. I want to keep fan diameter to a minimum for portability and the practical limits of my silicon tubing step up / step down connecting method.

So hours of interwebs browsing later...

I first thought that tiny drone motors would be a good place to start, but nearly all motors of that type I found intend to be operated with an open, not enclosed fan, which isn't conducive to hooking up to a tube

Trying different search terms, what I think I need is a "tube-axial fan" or 'vane-axial' fan, or, closest thing: an EDF (electric ducted fan) The first 2 types tend to be larger, industrial fans. The last kind, EDF, seems to be used often in hobby / model planes and helicopters, this might be closest to what I need.

The best candidates I've located seem to be this all-plastic "delta-v" 28mm diameter EDF for hobby use...

On the more industrial side of relevant results, I found this "amtek rotron" vane-axial fan

I don't know what materials this is made of (all metal?) and it's power requirements, but it's only 1.25" diameter, (barely bigger than 28mm?) so I don't think I'm going to find anything smaller than this

As for powering a DC-powered electric fan motor, I don't think that should be that difficult; maybe I can connect the 2 wires to the lead terminals on an RDA with a box mod battery set to put out just the right amount of volts/watts to power the fan when I press the button...maybe someone can think of a more elegant battery pack solution that doesn't require me to hold the button down for 10 seconds at a time?

But to step back and give some context on this whole idea...

is this even a good idea?

theoretically? practically?

practically, this can be done, I don't see the obstacles being too great. Theoretically, the main reason I see to NOT want to attempt this, at least with the type of fans I'm finding, would be for health / off gassing reasons.

I make a good effort to only use vaporizer devices and accessories with safe, medical grade materials that do not combust or gas-off toxic or undesirable crap in my vapor stream. So food/medical grade silicon tubing is a common tool in this trade, but it seems the fans that I'm looking at are made of "injection-molded high-strength plastic"

Fine for it's intended use, I'm sure, but what about if you pass lots of ~400F vapor clouds through the plastic fans, and then inhale all of that? Maybe not so bad? Perhaps I'm over-thinking it? But inhaling random plastic gasses has never known to be good in any quantity, to my knowledge

So maybe that "amtek rotron" vane-axial fan would be a better candidate, if it's only made of metals; stainless steel, aluminum and copper, I would hope / presume? The website is pretty basic, so I'd have to contact them for more info, I guess...

Thanks for any feedback / suggestions you may have on this idea

Or any other fans you might find that could be good for this project, that I didn't find already

 

[Andreaerdna]

This seems a more complicate version of @natural farmer vapor lung, there is a thread somewhere.

Personally I do not like the idea of putting some unknown plastic in vapor path (fan) nor tempted to add anything else than glass to chill vapor..

 

[Vape Donkey 650]

Hmm, I couldn't find natural farmer's vapor lung, but I did find @funkyjunky's thread about a hand-pump filling bags with a mighty?

A different mechanism, but the same goal or idea.

I'm seeing aquarium pumps and other plug-in AC pumps, but a crafty with a tiny, battery powered fan for filling bags could be great for camping.



It seems the rotron electric fans have an all-metal construction inside, so it might be just the bearings or lubircants that I would be concerned with off-gassing?

I'm making an inquiry to "ametek rotron", let's see what they say.

 

[Andreaerdna]

Here we go

http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/the-amazing-vapor-lung.7526/

 

[Vape Donkey 650]

Hmm, there we go. Vapor lung.

Interesting concept, simple and elegant, and easy to make. No need for a fan motor or battery. It sure looks like it works from the videos that people posted on that thread, but the vapor bags seem half-way filled and not very dense, not like what I expect to pull off from on top of my volcano's solid valve on a fresh, finely-ground fill up.

That looks more like my bags when they're about 1/3 filled up (or 2/3 depleted?)

I think I need forced-air to get those bags crinkling and bursting at the seams with vapor. I think fan cfm will be the main impediment to that goal, if I can rig it up...

Edit: here's a rough pic of my idea for the non-textually inclined

 

[KeroZen]

Lol sorry mate but you'll have bad surprises!

First you will need an ESC between your power source and the motor, also known as speed controller. The motor inside the EDF is a brushless one with 3 phases which must be fired alternatively with the proper timing (the role of the ESC) Then the ESC requires a throttle signal, which comes from the RC receiver usually but which could be faked by plugging a "servo tester" having a knob (but it's not a simple voltage, the signal is encoded using a particular format)

Then finally, just search "edf jet" on youtube and you'll have an idea of the main problem! Those things just scream literally. No sane person would ever want to vape sitting next to one of these while it's running, it's too loud and annoying!

 

[duckTape]

I think you are over complicating things a bit..

I've had a similar experiment where I hooked up my Haze to this 6 volt DC pump;
http://www.banggood.com/6V-0_5A-370...uum-Pump-Air-Pump-p-987266.html?rmmds=myorder

And I regulated the voltage with this speed controler;
http://www.banggood.com/Low-Voltage...troller-PWM-1803B-p-961010.html?rmmds=myorder


Worked like a charm! But honestly, it didn't get used as often as I thought it would.
But a fun project indeed

Edit;

I used this as a valve on my homemade "volcano-bag";
http://www.banggood.com/10x-Aquariu...tor-For-Fish-Tank-p-939929.html?rmmds=myorder

 

[Bat Norman]

Maybe you could get something like this and modify it.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item//32707537255.html?spm=2114.10010108.1000023.4.x96etu

 

[VAPEHUNTER]

You guys should talk to @paytonpenn he put together a "bag" system with his Hammer Vape using this pump → http://www.herbalaire.com/store/p24/H2.2_High_Output_Pump_System.html

Here is an excerpt his original post from the Hammer thread regarding the items used for his bag set-up.

Herbalizer SqueezeValve bags, I would much prefer to use the 14mm gong for the Hammer but mine broke recently.
Herbalaire HO Pump, 5/16" ID x 7/16" OD Silcon Tubing, 1/4" ID x 3/8" OD Silcon Tubing, Underdog thin tubing.
I used my Infinity base as a stand with a paperclip to hold it in place..

And here are a couple videos of his bag system in use.

 

[funkyjunky]

Hmm, I couldn't find natural farmer's vapor lung, but I did find @funkyjunky's thread about a hand-pump filling bags with a mighty?

A different mechanism, but the same goal or idea.

I'm seeing aquarium pumps and other plug-in AC pumps, but a crafty with a tiny, battery powered fan for filling bags could be great for camping.



It seems the rotron electric fans have an all-metal construction inside, so it might be just the bearings or lubircants that I would be concerned with off-gassing?

I'm making an inquiry to "ametek rotron", let's see what they say.

Hmm, there we go. Vapor lung.

Interesting concept, simple and elegant, and easy to make. No need for a fan motor or battery. It sure looks like it works from the videos that people posted on that thread, but the vapor bags seem half-way filled and not very dense, not like what I expect to pull off from on top of my volcano's solid valve on a fresh, finely-ground fill up.

That looks more like my bags when they're about 1/3 filled up (or 2/3 depleted?)

I think I need forced-air to get those bags crinkling and bursting at the seams with vapor. I think fan cfm will be the main impediment to that goal, if I can rig it up...

Edit: here's a rough pic of my idea for the non-textually inclined

with your setup the fan will gunk up. i think the way this guy did it in the thread you found is the way to go. it also lets one use whatever portavle vaporizer.
i drew a quick schema:

difference to the video: replace the bag with the vape inside with a mason jar. maybe add a valve to the pump air outlet so you can adjust flowrate.

 

[Vape Donkey 650]

Wow! Thanks for the all the replies and suggestions, everyone.

Lol sorry mate but you'll have bad surprises!

First you will need an ESC between your power source and the motor, also known as speed controller. The motor inside the EDF is a brushless one with 3 phases which must be fired alternatively with the proper timing (the role of the ESC) Then the ESC requires a throttle signal, which comes from the RC receiver usually but which could be faked by plugging a "servo tester" having a knob (but it's not a simple voltage, the signal is encoded using a particular format)

Then finally, just search "edf jet" on youtube and you'll have an idea of the main problem! Those things just scream literally. No sane person would ever want to vape sitting next to one of these while it's running, it's too loud and annoying!

All this you're talking about here is in reference to the first, plastic 28mm EDF fan right?

In my earlier post, I showed the rotron "minimax AC" but I see that wouldn't be the easiest motor to wire up and power if it needs alternating current. They have a DC version of the motor that is just barely a little bigger. (A 1.3" x 1.76" cube)

It appears it only has 2 lead wires, and wants 28v, 10w, 0.4 amps, and can flow up to 9.8 cfm and is 57 decibels loud (is that alot of airflow? is that very loud?)

Although it says it wants 28v, it also says fan speed dependent on voltage, so maybe I don't need all those controlers and modulators?

Gettin all those figures from the product spec sheet here, I'm still waiting on their reply to my inquiry

I think you are over complicating things a bit..

I've had a similar experiment where I hooked up my Haze to this 6 volt DC pump;
http://www.banggood.com/6V-0_5A-370...uum-Pump-Air-Pump-p-987266.html?rmmds=myorder

And I regulated the voltage with this speed controler;
http://www.banggood.com/Low-Voltage...troller-PWM-1803B-p-961010.html?rmmds=myorder


Worked like a charm! But honestly, it didn't get used as often as I thought it would.
But a fun project indeed

Edit;

I used this as a valve on my homemade "volcano-bag";
http://www.banggood.com/10x-Aquariu...tor-For-Fish-Tank-p-939929.html?rmmds=myorder

Hey thanks for the suggestion. Looks like an aquarium pump? It might be quieter and pump more air flow with less power needed than the EDFs I'm looking at, and the little plastic input/output nipples should make it easy to hook up to my silicon tubes.

It is a little bulkier than the fans I'm looking at, and although it can be an "inline" airflow supply for me, the 90* bend in the path isn't as slick and minimal as a small fan might be....

I can see something like this working for my concept and goal, but my main concern with a pump like this: isn't it made of plastic on the inside? I'm pretty sure alot of my hot, freshly produced vapor will pass through and touch alot of plastic if this pump is pulling the cloud through it, pushing it into a bag. If I try something like this, I would want the pump internals at least to be steel, copper, aluminum, and not have much plastic in the path?

Good hint with the aquarium valve as your valve for the vapor bags. Once the vapor has been produced and collected in a bag and cooled down some amount, I don't have any problem passing it through a plastic valve to inhale. I use some similar plastic push-valves for my bags with my arizer EQ. It's from an old generic desktop vape I can't recall right now....

You guys should talk to @paytonpenn he put together a "bag" system with his Hammer Vape using this pump → http://www.herbalaire.com/store/p24/H2.2_High_Output_Pump_System.html

Here is an excerpt his original post from the Hammer thread regarding the items used for his bag set-up.


And here are a couple videos of his bag system in use.

Thanks for another suggestion. I saw these videos in @funkyjunky 's earlier thread about the hand-pump bag filler. (You posted this? )

Another good example of a method to adapt a universal bag-filler for almost any vaporizer.

However, this case involves a 110v AC power source being needed to power the device. I'm looking for something that can be portable and battery powered, that can be packed up in a smaller space and used in your car, or on a camping trip perhaps, and not have as much dongles and cables and apparatus needed to make it all work.

I have used a mobile "marine" battery box for large car batteries to power AC/DC inverters through the 12v accessory port (cigarette lighter?) adapter to power desktop vapes like my Arizer EQ. This is a great setup for big sessions on a camping trip if you can commit to schlepping all that gear. You need to use something like this to power that herbalaire pump if you are away from an AC power plug, so you might as well use a full desktop vape on an AC inverter if you have one, rather than rig up a 110v AC air pump.

with your setup the fan will gunk up. i think the way this guy did it in the thread you found is the way to go. it also lets one use whatever portavle vaporizer.
i drew a quick schema:

difference to the video: replace the bag with the vape inside with a mason jar. maybe add a valve to the pump air outlet so you can adjust flowrate.

Right on for the pump-bag method. I can see this working, for sure, and it could be safe and sanitary by simply using an external electric pump (or hand-pumping external air with a little plastic pump) into a sealed mason jar or high-temp plastic bags. The only thing I don't like is all the extra apparatus and connections. If I'm going to get this much stuff involved, I'd rather just use an AC inverter on a car battery to power up my desktop plug-in vapes.

Gunking up of the blades and insides of an in-line, EDF fan could be an issue, something that wouldn't be an issue with your alternate method of force-feeding air through a pump into the a sealed chamber with the vaporizer.

If I do this, it will be a device that is occasionally used (maybe a few times a year?) at most, so I wouldn't be overly concerned about it getting covered in vapor condensate.

It seems like the minimax DC fan has an all metal-construction inside with a sealed-lubricant bearing, (that's good?) so maybe I can clean it (even take it apart and re-assemble?) if gunking and condensation starts to build up and impede performance or flavor.

This motor seems like the best candidate for my idea, so far, I'm still waiting to hear from the company to see how they respond, if this little ducted fan isn't too expen$ive, and I don't find any better prospects, or any good reasons why I shouldn't do this, I might end up attempting this, but not too soon....

 

[looney2nz]

ok, I poked around a bit on the product sheet...

57 dba (of airflow ONLY), not terribly loud, HOWEVER...
it appears to be running incredibly fast (22-24K), which is above most
people's hearing range, packaging etc will determine much about how loud
the thing ACTUALLY is (isolation mounting, enclosure design, influence of adapters/back-pressure, etc.).

 

[rz]

I was hoping to debut my findings in a much better way, but due to a lack of time and a different project that's on my desk right now, my porta-bag filler has taken a back seat. I've experimented a lot with force feeding air through the Arizer Air's intake ducts. I encased the air intake area only, so I didn't use a jar for the whole thing. This prevents air flowing through other parts of the vape, like battery compartment etc. I then attached a bag to the stem, and voila, porta-bag filler. it works GREAT with the right fan, and I tried many different ones.

The Arizer Air has a bit of draw resistance, so overcoming the static pressure is more important than high air-flow, and I found that centrifugal fans work best. The one I settled on for size/performance is the Delta BFB0512HH. I tried many smaller ones but didn't get a great fill-rate. This fan filled a bag, about one cubic foot (rough estimation), which is a good quantity for the amount of material used, in about 2~3 minutes, which works great with the Arizer Air's heating capacity (too much airflow, and the unit cant keep the heat at its setting).

As for 'small' axial fans, they just didn't cut it. However, a counter-rotating 40mm fan pulled from an old server worked perfectly! (after cleaning it up). I can't recall the exact model since I lent it out, but can find out for you later if you're interested. It's a 40x40xsomething, like one of these.

As for power, I tried some of the 5v fans but couldn't get enough oomph from the small ones available. I used one of these USB to 12v boost converters, and hooked it up to a portable usb charger.

I planned to make a little silicone cup for the cause, and have already got some drawings made out by a friend, but haven't gotten to it (If anyone makes one, please send me one If anyone plans on banking on it, I'd love to be part of the design process, or at-least buy me some cool stuff ). Another idea I need to test out since I finally found the silicone sleeve it comes with, is to use the sleeve somehow Anyway, I hope this helps. Here's a pic of an early prototype:

P.S YES! This is really such a simple mod to DIY. I used a powerful little fan (first one pulled from an old server), 2 paper coffee cups with some holes cut out, a balloon, a roasting bag, and elastic band. Thats about the minimum needed, and can easily be improved on with some imagination.

 

[Vape Donkey 650]

I was hoping to debut my findings in a much better way, but due to a lack of time and a different project that's on my desk right now, my porta-bag filler has taken a back seat. I've experimented a lot with force feeding air through the Arizer Air's intake ducts. I encased the air intake area only, so I didn't use a jar for the whole thing. This prevents air flowing through other parts of the vape, like battery compartment etc. I then attached a bag to the stem, and voila, porta-bag filler. it works GREAT with the right fan, and I tried many different ones.

The Arizer Air has a bit of draw resistance, so overcoming the static pressure is more important than high air-flow, and I found that centrifugal fans work best. The one I settled on for size/performance is the Delta BFB0512HH. I tried many smaller ones but didn't get a great fill-rate. This fan filled a bag, about one cubic foot (rough estimation), which is a good quantity for the amount of material used, in about 2~3 minutes, which works great with the Arizer Air's heating capacity (too much airflow, and the unit cant keep the heat at its setting).

As for 'small' axial fans, they just didn't cut it. However, a counter-rotating 40mm fan pulled from an old server worked perfectly! (after cleaning it up). I can't recall the exact model since I lent it out, but can find out for you later if you're interested. It's a 40x40xsomething, like one of these.

As for power, I tried some of the 5v fans but couldn't get enough oomph from the small ones available. I used one of these USB to 12v boost converters, and hooked it up to a portable usb charger.

I planned to make a little silicone cup for the cause, and have already got some drawings made out by a friend, but haven't gotten to it (If anyone makes one, please send me one If anyone plans on banking on it, I'd love to be part of the design process, or at-least buy me some cool stuff ). Another idea I need to test out since I finally found the silicone sleeve it comes with, is to use the sleeve somehow Anyway, I hope this helps. Here's a pic of an early prototype:

P.S YES! This is really such a simple mod to DIY. I used a powerful little fan (first one pulled from an old server), 2 paper coffee cups with some holes cut out, a balloon, a roasting bag, and elastic band. Thats about the minimum needed, and can easily be improved on with some imagination.

Thanks for sharing this setup, @rz. This is closer to how I'd like to set this up. This has a minimum amount of chambers, hoses, connectors and wires, and is battery powered, portable, and relatively compact.

I had not thought of putting a centrifugal fan to my own forced-air blower assembly (McDonald's coffee cup? )

I'm not very familiar with the air intake and vapor path on the arizer air. Does it take in air from near the top of the device? If so, then I can see how your fan and cup is taking outside air and pressurizing it inside the cup, and forcing it through the air intake on the arizer and up through the heating chamber and into the bag? Is this correct?

I like how you did this, but I'm not sure if a similar setup would work with a crafty, or a 510 concentrate atomizer. The air intake on the crafty / mighty comes in through concealed slits in the bottom half of the vape's outer case, moves up through a convection pre-heating chamber inside, and then through the conduction heating chamber and herbs, and through the cooling unit, and out the mouthpiece straw.

Maybe the main difference is top air intake vs. bottom air intake for arizer air vs. crafty. If so, maybe I can flip the mounting of the vape in your paper cup, put the crafty bottom inside the sealed pressurized cup with the fan, and connect the bag to the mouthpiece straw to collect the vapor pushed out from the bottom.

The missing piece to make this all work in both applications seems to be making a tight gasket or seal with the vaporizer body and the pressurized cup so air doesn't leak out. Do you have some sort of rudimentary gasket or sealant with the arizer and cup, or is it just a press-in, flush fit?

Also, thanks for showing that little USB 5v / 12v boosters. That seems like one of the cheaper, more elegant and minimalist ways to power a little 12v DC fan on-the-go. Even if I wanted to go with a 24v or 28v, I'm seeing similar devices that will take in a USB 5v and can put out a variety of voltages in a small, cheap board. It seems like you have this connected to a USB battery booster pack, so as soon as you plug it in, it powers the fan? I think this should be a little better than wire leads into an RDA with a box mod. It seems they all max out @ 8v, anyways.


But anyways, getting back to the ametek-rotron DC minimax fan, this won't be an option for this project.

I got in contact with the company by phone and talked to some of their engineers and reps. It surely seems this little fan will be up to the task, but it costs over $4,000. Apparently it's used in F-18 jet fighters Maybe for spot-cooling of cockpit instruments, or maybe for the actual pilot? Now they did offer me a deal...if I could buy 20 of them, they could drop the price to about $2,000! So who else wants to by 19 DC minimax jet-fighter fans with me? LOL...I wish... sigh....

Their reps were very helpful on the phone even though I told them I was using this for a "vapor aromatherapy" project. (Not the first time I've confused industrial vendors with these kind of inquiries )

They recommended I check out Globe Motors and Delta fans for inline or EDFs.

Got a few leads for similar, high grade, all metal, sealed-bearing mini-fans.

Like this C-4160 27v DC 58cfm fan, all aluminum and only a 2.25" square! Nice!

Or how about this C-5120 27v DC 19cfm EDF, also all metal, sealed bearings and only a 1.750" diameter circle! Sweet!

I got on the phone with this company, but in trying to get a quote, their people were circumspect, requiring me to put in a written request. Would this cost hundreds or thousands of dollars, I ask? Yes. Out of budget again, for this military-industrial grade gear.

So I guess this will limit me to cheaper, plastic, computer-cooling type fans, or hobby EDFs, centrifugal fans, or air pumps.

Something like this D16T06 12v DC 6-8 cfm plastic fan seems more like what I must settle for. It's alot bigger as a 40mm cube, and flows much less air, and is plastic. I'd much rather have metal. I suppose there will be lots of similar cheap options if I want to open up the field to plastic computer cooling fans, maybe I can find one that's smaller and more powerful, but the plastic bothers me the most.

After this disappointing info, the 28mm hobby EDF from my first post is looking better again. But I need to get a "speed controller" because it's not a DC motor, can I power this with a USB battery booster also?

Thanks for everyone's ideas and suggestions, I need to review my options and get more pricing info, I'll be back.