Silicone Offgassing - Is it a Health Concern?

[Archaicrevival]

Back in 2013 I had bought a Davinci Ascent, It has visible vapors coming from it.(note: NOT my personal video below but exact problem!) I had contacted their customer support and they said these vapors were "non-toxic, and safe."

Some forum members believe this...what do you think? I don't mind spending money on a good vape, but seeing as I have a small degree of small airway disease (most likely from smoking cigarettes in my teen years, Thankfully I have quit smoking ANYTHING for 3 years.) I do not want to inhale anything other than THC (A known Bronchodilator and CBD which is known to be an anti-inflammatory.(1)

Here are some things to think about...

https://imageserv5.team-logic.com/mediaLibrary/99/Outgassing_20of_20Silicone_20Elastomers.pdf

"Principal outgassed species from a post-cured silicone rubber compound.

Component Probable Source cyclohexasiloxane
LMW silicone fluid
phenyl benzoate catalyst byproduct
linear hexasiloxane LMW silicone fluid
linear pentasiloxane LMW silicone fluid
propanoic acid ester catalyst byproduct
diethylphthalate pigment wetting agent
Cx hydrocarbons Silane coupling agent
cyclopentasiloxane LMW silicone fluid
biphenyl hydrocarbon catalyst byproduct
linear heptasiloxane LMW silicone fluid
Cx aldehydes catalyst decomposition product
cyclotrisiloxane LMW silicone fluid"

What do you think of the claim that this off-gassing (if still an issue in the latest Davinci ascent model, is "safe and non-toxic"?

(1)http://www.weedist.com/2012/07/tailoring-high-compounds-in-cannabis-properties-boiling-points/

 

[Delta3DStudios]

I can't comment on the chemical makeup of Silicone or what type @Davinci_vaporizer is using in their Ascent vaporizer. However I should mention that the video you have referenced was made in 2013. Back when the first Ascent's were released.

There was a known offgassing issue with those units. It was due to the fact the silicone wasn't being fully cured. If I recall correctly sometime in late 2013 or early 2014, Organicix acquired several Silicone curing machines and moved the curing process to America. Although I could be mistaken, that was 18 months ago when I seem to remember reading about that..

 

[max]

Silicone has a high temp rating- higher than vamping temps. Also, if it was an issue (and being used in an area where it shouldn't be), the off gassing would be occurring all the time, and not just when the unit was new.

 

[Archaicrevival]

Silicone has a high temp rating- higher than vamping temps. Also, if it was an issue (and being used in an area where it shouldn't be), the off gassing would be occurring all the time, and not just when the unit was new.

See the video above, that happened all the time...I did 10 "burn offs' but this was back in 2013 perhaps this issue has been fixed? But even still I told the representative at the time what was going on she said those fumes are "non-toxic."

 

[Hippie Dickie]

if it is cured properly, hey, it may be okay. know your chemist.

personally, i only vape with an all borosilicate glass air pathway. i eschew plastics of any kind for any purpose - but particularly in a 400°F device. that may just be me ... i'm a bit obsessive about it.

 

[max]

See the video above, that happened all the time...I did 10 "burn offs' but this was back in 2013 perhaps this issue has been fixed? But even still I told the representative at the time what was going on she said those fumes are "non-toxic."

Some initial burn off when new is normal, but if it continues then something is wrong, and I wouldn't be reassured if I were told it's non toxic.

 

[CarolKing]

Have you used it recently to find out if it's still off gassing? If it still acts like it did above and you taste and smell something bad, send it back. What was the Ascent warranty? I can't remember if it's 2 years?

If you have a vaporizer that's off gassing like that. Send it back before the warranty is up. No sense in waisting your money and sticking with a faulty unit. I wouldn't draw off of something that smelled bad and tasted bad after 10 burn offs.

The Ascent did have a plastic taste for the first couple of loads but it went away.

 

[KeroZen]

I also questionned the use of plasticizers in silicone in general, and the Ascent in particular in this post: http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/ascent-vaporizer-by-davinci.9885/page-329#post-806994

Not because I experienced any off gassing but because over time my silicone around the bowl changed texture and color, usually a sign that plasticizers are leaching out. When cleaning it a small chunk broke away and since that day I can taste that damn silicone even more than before.

Now that I switched to other daily drivers (FM5S, FM5Pro and Zion), I realize that silicone taste in the Ascent never completely disappeared (and the device was used daily for more than a year) Every time I come back to it now it's painfully obvious. The first time I used it, it was plain disgusting I remember, even after over two charges worth of empty burn-ins.

Is it safe? I don't know. Does it give off a taste? That's for sure! Weak heater, air leaks, a pain to clean, smelly silicone all around and having to use exactly the right technic to get vapor are all the reasons for which I can't recommend the Ascent. Previously I claimed it had a top notch taste, but I don't anymore, there are better alternatives nowadays.

 

[RUDE BOY]

If it's not the right grade of silicone for the job I would think the off gassing could be less then healthy.

Still love my silicone Bowls for my Logs, they always taste as pure as glass to me and I've been using 'em for a couple of years now. As long as it's food grade silicone all should be good as far as I'm concerned.
I've never experienced any off gassing or off taste with the Old style glass stems with the silicone bowls for the Underdog or from the lengths of tubing they sell for silicone stems.

 

[Archaicrevival]

I also questionned the use of plasticizers in silicone in general, and the Ascent in particular in this post: http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/ascent-vaporizer-by-davinci.9885/page-329#post-806994

Not because I experienced any off gassing but because over time my silicone around the bowl changed texture and color, usually a sign that plasticizers are leaching out. When cleaning it a small chunk broke away and since that day I can taste that damn silicone even more than before.

Now that I switched to other daily drivers (FM5S, FM5Pro and Zion), I realize that silicone taste in the Ascent never completely disappeared (and the device was used daily for more than a year) Every time I come back to it now it's painfully obvious. The first time I used it, it was plain disgusting I remember, even after over two charges worth of empty burn-ins.

Is it safe? I don't know. Does it give off a taste? That's for sure! Weak heater, air leaks, a pain to clean, smelly silicone all around and having to use exactly the right technic to get vapor are all the reasons for which I can't recommend the Ascent. Previously I claimed it had a top notch taste, but I don't anymore, there are better alternatives nowadays.

Do you think the mivape is worth getting (once the issues that have been known are fixed) or should I get the pax 2 again, or wait for the Evoke?

 

[1_gr8_underdog]

@Archaicrevival I would pass on the eoke,&pax2. Although I have never tried either the conversations in the thread show the evoke to be a over priced new approach to a traditional conduction vape.? But like I said who really knows at this point. The pax 2 requires a good bit of material as you know. And flavor reports are marginal..Have you looked into the @RastaBuddhaTao 's Zion thread? Here is his Webstore. There are many upcoming models that I think would treat you better for around the same cost. Or even less. The Zion performs very well and is the flagship of RBT line up. There is also a Dual 18650 Powerhouse. Initial beta testing reports have been very good on this model as well. These options are USA made and have zero silicone offgassing issues, there is no silicone. The longevity the dual battery vaporizers deliver is unmatched on the market. Or at least in my opinion. Hope this helps to show you some other options.

 

[herbivore21]

Silicone has a high temp rating- higher than vamping temps. Also, if it was an issue (and being used in an area where it shouldn't be), the off gassing would be occurring all the time, and not just when the unit was new.

Silicone is only generally safe to 260c (500f). Remember that whilst your vapes may tell you that they are getting 210c (in the Mighty for example), this is not necessarily the case for the whole airpath (especially near the heater, obviously the Mighty only uses silicone towards the end of the airpath so this is not such a concern). A lot of vapes could get to 260 or hotter at certain points in the airpath (again near the heater is more likely), especially with heavy use.

Silicone could absolutely be put in the wrong part of the airpath in a poorly designed vape get too hot and release fumes. I have accidentally overheated silicone (not in a vape and didn't inhale it directly though!) and even that smells like nothing I want going into my body!

I am seriously not big on silicone anywhere near the load in an airpath (especially where concentrates are involved), but it can be used judiciously in vapes to great effect!

https://imageserv5.team-logic.com/mediaLibrary/99/Formaldehyde_Generation_from_Silicone_Rubber.pdf

Check that paper out for a variety of nasty stuff that you don't want to breathe in that gets released from oxidative thermal degradation of silicone rubbers.

I recommend immediate cessation of use of ANY device with silicone which is offgassing. Food grade is still not safe if it offgases, this rating does not relate to the inhalation of offgassed substances!

"Formaldehyde is thermally generated from many materials -- including high consistency silicone rubber. However, the rate at which silicone rubber generates formaldehyde is substantially lower than many common materials. Silicone rubber begins to generate formaldehyde at temperatures as low as 149o C, but does not appreciably generate formaldehyde until ~200 C and above."

That's the skinny from that article. Basically, Silicone rubber may not generate formaldehyde as readily as a lot of other similar materials, but it sure can at vaping temps...

 

[KeroZen]

Do you think the mivape is worth getting (once the issues that have been known are fixed) or should I get the pax 2 again, or wait for the Evoke?

Let's not derail this thread too much. @pakalolo claimed the Pax 2 taste was clearly improved over the v1, and I believe him. It doesn't look like a bad vape... But honestly, if I would have to recommend a single vape these days it would be the Zion. I don't say this because I was part of the alpha testing crew, but really because I mean it. It's an incredible vape on so many aspects and I know it's hard to believe with that plain wood block look... But it's true, it's just simply great.

 

[Aner]

I think this is the singular most important issue with these plastic/silicon vaporizers - toxicity. I would absolutely REJECT DaVinci's claim that there is no toxicity to the foul, toxic tastes/odors of their product. They have absolutely no basis for that claim - they are speaking out of the air - and your reason has every basis for KNOWING otherwise. They are shameless profiteers that should not be in business for selling this kind of cheap Chinese crap. They know better - we know better. Don't hurt your body!! You only have one.

The ultimate problem - I do not know which portable vaporizer is safe...:-(

 

[howie105]

Problem is that the quality of the various products that are out there. Some tubing I have used for over a year and it seems to be going strong other tubing I bought never made it into use because it was structurally horrid and it smell like a chemical train wreck at room temperature. So I guess its one of those case by case, tube by tube things.

 

[biohacker]

So is high temp med grade tubing like this, SAFE at vaping temps? I always assumed that it was, but now i'm not so sure:

http://www.planetvape.ca/med-x-high-temp-platinum-cured-silicone-vaporizer-tubing.html
http://www.planetvape.ca/silcon-high-temp-silicone-vaporizer-tubing.html

First one only goes to 205c while the second is 260c. What ya think?

 

[pakalolo]

So is high temp med grade tubing like this, SAFE at vaping temps? I always assumed that it was, but now i'm not so sure:

http://www.planetvape.ca/med-x-high-temp-platinum-cured-silicone-vaporizer-tubing.html
http://www.planetvape.ca/silcon-high-temp-silicone-vaporizer-tubing.html

First one only goes to 205c while the second is 260c. What ya think?

I think that vapour is nowhere close to 205°C when it reaches the tubing in any design that I know.

I think this is the singular most important issue with these plastic/silicon vaporizers - toxicity. I would absolutely REJECT DaVinci's claim that there is no toxicity to the foul, toxic tastes/odors of their product. They have absolutely no basis for that claim - they are speaking out of the air - and your reason has every basis for KNOWING otherwise. They are shameless profiteers that should not be in business for selling this kind of cheap Chinese crap. They know better - we know better. Don't hurt your body!! You only have one.

The ultimate problem - I do not know which portable vaporizer is safe...:-(

They probably have a lot more basis for their claim than you do for yours.

Your characterization of DaVinci is inappropriate. Our rule is:

• Don’t attack products or companies. You can post your opinion, and you can criticize, but posts written to offend are not allowed.

Since this is the second time you've made a post attacking DaVinci, you've earned a vacation.

 

[biohacker]

I think that vapour is nowhere close to 205°C when it reaches the tubing in any design that I know.

Curious why you would say that? So my Herbalizer set to 229c isn't 229c 1cm from the bowl?

 

[btka]

sorry but I can not understand how people think that foodgrade means it is safe to vaporize... as the word foodgrade say it is safe as food or better to eat but vaping is a totaly differnt thing... food goes in your stomach and vapor i
n your lungs...

also if something is today graded as safe this does not mean it is really safe .? it is with the wisdom and technical posibilities of today safe.... who knows maybe in ten years it ill be stated as totaly toxic and not safe...
I believe it is possible to avoid such materials totaly and there are a few examples who did it allready, so that is no excuse... it is maybe easier and profitable to use silicone , plastic and other questioNable materials...
but at the end you are the consumer do not buy such products ...

 

[pakalolo]

Curious why you would say that? So my Herbalizer set to 229c isn't 229c 1cm from the bowl?

I don't know, I don't own a Herbalizer. Measure it and tell us. I will still bet that tubing doesn't get close to 200°C. I don't believe that manufacturers cut margins that close, especially American companies who have to deal with the most litigious society on the planet.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

I don't believe that manufacturers cut margins that close

like i always say: know your chemist (manufacturer) ... and as xxxx always says, it isn't binary, there will be outgassing at lower temps. *** (my bad, i think it is Max who makes this point)

the most litigious society on the planet.

you can't sue when you're injured doing an illegal activity like vaporizing cannabis.

 

[MinnBobber]

Curious why you would say that? So my Herbalizer set to 229c isn't 229c 1cm from the bowl?

.....................................................................
Vapor cools down very quickly/ in a very short distance.

I'm a F guy in US so here's my best example in F degrees:

miniVAP at 440F with short stock mouthpiece which is only 1 or 1.5 inches long
Vapor is way cooler as 130 or 135 F will scald you.

Joint example as it gets to down to roach size-- the tip is about 1000 F but it's probably 135ish F smoke??

Herbie with whip example: 445 F and take several hits. Feel whip at exit and it's hot but probably still well below even 200 F.

Anyone have an IR instant thermometer to hit a whip hard and measure the temp? Some objects work better/worse with IR thermometer.

 

[1DMF]

you can't sue when you're injured doing an illegal activity like vaporizing cannabis.

I'm confused, I thought where the Da Vinci vapouriser's are manufactured, cannabis is legal and this vaporiser is a medical device not illegal activity paraphernalia.

Am I missing something?

 

[Hippie Dickie]

I'm confused, I thought where the Da Vinci vapouriser's are manufactured, cannabis is legal and this vaporiser is a medical device not illegal activity paraphernalia.

Am I missing something?

here in USA we still have a federal war on drugs ... it is illegal ... banks won't get involved, it's so illegal.

 

[biohacker]

I just wanna know if the silicone tubing i'm using is going to hurt me, but so far from what i've read it doesn't appear to be a major issue. @herbivore21 where did you find that silicone starts offgassing ammonia at 140c? Is it in the link you posted that I haven't read yet?