Should pure vapor have a blue tint?

[Progress]

This seemed to be a topic of interest in another thread ( http://www.fuckcombustion.com/viewtopic.php?pid=100009#p100009 ), so I figured it would be cool to hear what people have to say about this blue vapor theory and how one can tell how pure/clean/concentrated their vapor is.

Thoughts?

I stated - "I just wanted to clarify that the reason that I was personally applauding the thick, transparent, bluish vapor in the video that stonemonkey55 posted is because it is what I have personally learned to associate with the thickest and tastiest vapor. IMO, pure/clean vapor should be transparent with the exception of color it takes on through the refraction of light (blue/violet being the one with the shortest wavelength, and therefore the most common). On the contrary, any opaque quality to the vapor (aside from it's refraction of light) would be from particles in the vapor (IMO, vapor with other gasses like benzine would still likely appear blue as well)."

 

[Pappy]

I think pure vapor can be whitish also. Depends on what you vaping, what you vaping it with, and how clean your tools are. Too many variables to make a definitive claim.

 

[Carbon]

When I was vaping with the Steinel heat gun and Vriptech system I got blue as well as white vapor. This was with ice and water. With the volcano almost all of it seems to be of the white variety (I'm vaping around 366 F). I don't really know what this means to be honest.

 

[aero18]

I think it is another molecule that has a higher boiling point that causes the blueish tint, although I do not have any data to support this.

 

[Pappy]

The refraction angle of the light you're viewing it in has as much to do with it as the other factors I mentioned.

 

[crawdad]

dont have much to add other than mine is either barely noticeable to nothing or its white. vapor genie glass.

it would make sense that you could see some color though, you are vaporizing a solid plant material. why blue i have no idea.

 

[OO]

you can't see vapor, but often, the vapor condensate exhaled from the herbie is blue, especially at higher temps.

 

[crawdad]

if i cannot see vapor then i guess when i do see something i have combusted. if that is the case then i guess all vaporizers are actually partial vaporizers. perhaps this point has been made here before.

 

[steiner666]

The refraction angle of the light you're viewing it in has as much to do with it as the other factors I mentioned.

yeah, thats what i was thinking.

i usually go for hits that you need extra harsh lighting and contrast to see. dont get me wrong, i love some thick hits now and then, and if i start at a higher temp than normal i have seen the vapor be bluish, but i prefer the less visible hits for efficiency and making my stash last.

 

[OO]

if i cannot see vapor then i guess when i do see something i have combusted. if that is the case then i guess all vaporizers are actually partial vaporizers. perhaps this point has been made here before.

no, you've got it wrong.

vaporizers are vaporizers, but depending on how saturated the total air mixture is, you should be able to see at least some vapor condensing into little vapor-droplets.
air's capacity to hold vapor is limited.
i'll explain it in terms of dew point.
dew point is the temperature for which a given amount of air would need be at to be completely saturated with water vapor, bring the temperature below the dew point, and you will start to condense out water vapor.

air's capacity to hold vapor is proportional to the temperature of the liquid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapor_pressure .
air's maximum storage capacity to store water vapor increases at an increasing rate with regards to temperature.
here is a graph that illustrates that.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/Water_vapor_pressure_graph.jpg
anywhere below the line is unsaturated air, anything above the line is over-saturated air, and will cause condensation in earth atmospheric conditions (more likely than not).

oftentimes people talk about "milky" hits, you're seeing air that is over-saturated with a mixture of water, and resin and other types of vapor, and the visible "vapor" is not actually vapor, but liquid droplets formed when the vapor condenses.

oftentimes when you take a hit out of a whip based vape, even if you raise the temperature very slowly, you'll still see condensed droplets upon exhalation even though there was none in the whip. long vapor trail with materials that are good at conducting heat would cause the droplets to be seen coming out of the whip. this is why many favor shorter air paths.

did you ever wonder why it is that you can see your breath on a cold day?
this is because your breath is full of warm air, nearly saturated with water vapor (breathe on to cold glass, and watch condensation occur onto the glass), but when your breath mixes with cold air, the air becomes over saturated with vapor and condensation occurs. in order to illustrate it on the graph, lets imagine two dots, one representing the vapor content of the ambient air, and one representing the vapor content of the exhaled air.
the first dot will be at 40 torr at 40 degrees celsius. that will be the vapor content and temperature of the ambient air, and the second dot will be at approximately 250 torr at 80 degrees celsius. so when you connect the dots (I.E. mix the air), you get part of the line connecting them above the curve representing the saturation vapor pressure, and as a result you get visible water droplets condensing.

it's amazing what you learn at a community college.

if you wanted air that was full of vapor and air only (i know there's more in the mixture), than you wold want air that is saturated with vapor (I.E. on the line)
i'm not sure of what is most effective, vapor, or vapor condensate, but i'd guess vapor.

 

[crawdad]

no, you've got it wrong.

vaporizers are vaporizers

i think with my flame vaporizer i can combust since if i hold it too long i can turn it black. appreciate your explanation on vapor and vapor pressure.

 

[pakalolo]

i think with my flame vaporizer i can combust since if i hold it too long i can turn it black.

Black doesn't automatically mean combustion. See:

http://www.vaporpedia.com/wiki/Magi...s_black.2C_it_means_I.27m_combusting_right.3F

If you get combustion you should be able to tell easily from the taste. I think you can combust with most flame vaporizers, but I have never and would never own one so I can't say that for certain.

 

[OO]

no, you've got it wrong.

vaporizers are vaporizers

i think with my flame vaporizer i can combust since if i hold it too long i can turn it black. appreciate your explanation on vapor and vapor pressure.

if you're getting combustion than you aren't vaporizing correctly.

 

[crawdad]

ah, thanks pakalolo...i never get the combustion taste so i guess im doing fine. and only twice did i get some black in there...it was when i refilled a second bowl and was already floating around, one of those nights.

 

[2clicker]

i think Luchianos explanation seemed most accurate

this snippet is from his post and while it does specifically explain how it works with smoke and not vapor, id say the same principles apply to both.

"When someone is smoking a cigarette, aside from the hacking and coughing, have you ever noticed that the smoke curling off the tip of the cigarette is blue, but when the smoke is exhaled it's white? We know that some nasty things are happening to the lungs, but why does the smoke change color?

The smoke changes color because the size of the smoke particles changes. The smoke particles rising from the cigarette tip are very small, smaller than the wavelengths of visible light. Because the particles are so tiny, when most light waves strike one of them they are not reflected back like a bouncing ball, but only slightly deflected from their paths. This is called "scattering."

The various colors of light have different wave lengths, and the ones toward the blue end of the color spectrum are the shortest. So, the short, blue waves are scattered about more by the tiny smoke particles because they are closer to the same size. Since mostly blue waves are scattered about the area, we see the smoke as blue. Most of the other, longer wavelengths go almost straight past the particles and we don't see most of them.

Smoke particles that are sucked into the lungs are a bit bigger because they are not burned down completely. Many of them will remain in the lungs, hidden from the world until the biopsy. Many are exhaled, though, and when they come out they have changed again. While in the lungs, and on the way out, they pick up moisture so they become bigger still.

The particles are now big enough to reflect all wavelengths of light equally. When all the wavelengths are reflected back they make white light, and so the smoke looks white."

 

[hereatlast]

Just dropping by to bump this thread and to say this: I've been using a LED light (its a Krog light I use for my bicycle, neither here nor there) lately to see the vapor that fills my bubbler; with my PD I have noticed a slightly bluish tint at times. Without the LED light the vapor produced is discernibly different.


I also think its important to note that quality of herb is paramount for these observations: only high-quality product (IME) allows a concrete observable amount of vapor at a low-temp, otherwise I think there's a tendency, or at least an urge, to crank up the temperature when applicable/possible. There's no doubt in my mind that when I use a higher temperature, 'whiter' (all relative I suppose) vapor is produced, I'm not sure however if this is due solely to higher vapor production or indicative of new/different chemicals.


OO, thanks for your long response but I'm not completely there with you throughout. You're saying that 'vapor' isn't really vapor? Also, I'm curious about what you're saying about whip-based vapes: are you saying that they only produce visible vapor upon exhalation and not streaming out of the whip itself?

Sorry, I'm not particularly scientifically oriented so perhaps some of the terminology, explanation or theory went over my head. Either way, I think we can all agree that this is an area deserving more research.

Anyone with a nice LED light: shed some light on your vapor production (check out your exhale too) and see if there's a difference. I'm curious how much of this is psychological (I asked my girlfriend, is this blue? Of course its hard to judge the validity when you know what you're looking for) and how much I'm actually observing.

EDIT: also, I'm not sure if the LED affects the color of the vapor? This might be the case I'm not sure, I am able to see the vapor much much better with the light though.

Thanks for starting this thread, interested to see where it and the science takes us.

 

[djonkoman]

I noticed mostly the first hits on my VG re blue, the later hits are white, and also fade away a little different

 

[OO]

OO, thanks for your long response but I'm not completely there with you throughout. You're saying that 'vapor' isn't really vapor? Also, I'm curious about what you're saying about whip-based vapes: are you saying that they only produce visible vapor upon exhalation and not streaming out of the whip itself?

Sorry, I'm not particularly scientifically oriented so perhaps some of the terminology, explanation or theory went over my head. Either way, I think we can all agree that this is an area deserving more research.

there is plenty of info on the subject already out there, and available at most localities for a nominal sum, try community college or the internet for more info.

as for your questions, air doesn't have a limitless capacity to hold vapor (water, hash oil, as examples). there reaches a point where air becomes saturated with vapor, this point can vary with temperature.
after air becomes saturated with vapor, adding additional vapor results in condensation. this condensation occurs upon condensation nuclei. vapor is a given quantity of atoms buzzing around with enough energy to overcome their attraction to each other, when they do not have enough energy to overcome their attracting forces, the molecules come together with an intermolecular bond, which forms a droplet of molecules. this process is condensation.

can you remember the last time you saw an individual atom with the naked eye?
you shouldn't because it is impossible because the atom is too small to see without an EM.
since vapor consists of individual atoms, you cannot see it.
what vaporists commonly refer to as vapor is actually the condensate, or small oil droplets.
this is because the air they use is more than saturated.

 

[Pappy]

L.A. was in a weird weather pattern Sunday (12-4-2010) - arid to humid -- and this blue vapor cloud formed in my living room after exhaling some herb. It didn't disperse, it just hovered there for several minutes. Look carefully against the blacks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS8TbNeY8oM

 

[Nycdeisel]

wow, so much information here, Im still getting it through my head.

So, you are saying that what we see is actually just the condensate of the vapor, not the actual vapor itself. Correct?

 

[Progress]

I created this thread, in part, to prevent the topic from derailing another thread.

I guess I should have put it in the general vaporization discussion (or even ask FC).

Anyhow, I wanted to drop a couple more pennies.

I agree with what many have said.

OO, saturation points and dew points do have to do with the temperature and atmospheric pressure of the gas (or gas mixture).

Hereatlast, it seems interesting that the light goes from whitish to bluish when pointed at a chamber filled with vapor.

And, Luchiano, I agree with alot of what you said. It seems the blue tint to cigarette smoke would be due to the uneven distribution of molecules (appearing as white streams with blue tinted smoke connecting them, due to the less concentrated parts refracting the light less and appearing bluish). When the smoke leaves the lungs the particles are more evenly distributed, causing the light to reflect off of the cloud more evenly and appear more uniformly white.

With vapor, this is the case too IMO, but (if the vapor is clean) the cloud can get just as concentrated without particles (byproducts of combustion) and take on a beautiful thick bluish tinted appearance with good lighting (especially in a piece that keeps the vapor in a vacum-like state like the tube in SM's video --> The diffusion of the bubbles traveling through the water helps to maintain the vacum-like state due to less pressure reverberations...aka "chug"). With poor lighting, this cloud would also appear almost invisible, but distort images it obstructs.

Luchiano - When someone is smoking a cigarette, aside from the hacking and coughing, have you ever noticed that the smoke curling off the tip of the cigarette is blue, but when the smoke is exhaled it's white? We know that some nasty things are happening to the lungs, but why does the smoke change color? The smoke changes color because the size of the smoke particles changes. The smoke particles rising from the cigarette tip are very small, smaller than the wavelengths of visible light. Because the particles are so tiny, when most light waves strike one of them they are not reflected back like a bouncing ball, but only slightly deflected from their paths. This is called "scattering." The various colors of light have different wave lengths, and the ones toward the blue end of the color spectrum are the shortest. So, the short, blue waves are scattered about more by the tiny smoke particles because they are closer to the same size. Since mostly blue waves are scattered about the area, we see the smoke as blue. Most of the other, longer wavelengths go almost straight past the particles and we don't see most of them. Smoke particles that are sucked into the lungs are a bit bigger because they are not burned down completely. Many of them will remain in the lungs, hidden from the world until the biopsy. Many are exhaled, though, and when they come out they have changed again. While in the lungs, and on the way out, they pick up moisture so they become bigger still. The particles are now big enough to reflect all wavelengths of light equally. When all the wavelengths are reflected back they make white light, and so the smoke looks white.

 

[Stu]

L.A. was in a weird weather pattern Sunday (12-4-2010) - arid to humid -- and this blue vapor cloud formed in my living room after exhaling some herb. It didn't disperse, it just hovered there for several minutes. Look carefully against the blacks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS8TbNeY8oM

Nice artwork there, Pappy. I like the big piece behind the couch. Must be interesting to look at and ponder after some herb

 

[Purple-Days]

NO, it should be a vibrant orange.