Selfism/Selfishness - Which is worse?

[djonkoman]

I've not read everything in this thread so maybe I'm repeating others... but I find there's nothing wrong with selfishness, everything is ebentually selfish(I once said selfishness is good, my father, one of the most altruistic people that I know, said you should help people, I asked him why he wanted to help people and he gave the answer I suspected: because it makes me feel good)
so I'm not saying you shouldn't help anyone, but just be aware you're doing it out of zselfishness
and always being a jerk isn't really that selfish in my opinion, since that way other people won't like you and that will work against you
in that case it's more that you like being a jerk then it is selfishness

and I would think #2 is worse, because I think everyone should be aware their actions are essentially selfish, how altruistic they seem to be
I also feel guilty if I give a homeless person money, since I know it won't help him/her in the long run and I know I'm just buying off my guilt, instead of really doing something
luckily I can keep myself under control most of the time and not give anything, but there have been some ocassions where I did give money, and I still don't feel good about that
(on the other hand if there would be an organisation that helps them in a way that will help in the long run I would feel good about giving money to that organisation, since in that case it would actually help, altough I would still feel best if I don't give money but services or goods, since in any way giving money to charity is just a cheap way to deal with your pity, just buying it off))

 

[reece]

Maybe you guys wouldn't do things without some reward. Don't go putting that trip on everyone else. Sometimes I give to the (supposedly) homeless person. Sometimes I don't. I don't give to assuage some feeling of guilt. When I give I don't get some warm fuzzy feeling. When I do not give, I don't feel any guilt about it.



To paraphrase Pakalolo, you have done nothing but shown that your motivation is selfishness. And you attribute your motivations to everyone else.

I'll take your word that everything you do is for some self serving reason.

For fuck's sake, is this psych 101?

 

[fidget]

Fidg, first off, I'm TOTALLY prepared to be challenged. Hell, if I wasn't, I wouldn't be as active here as I am. Secondly, I'm not just playing Devil's Advocate here, for I truly believe in what I am saying.

My thoughts on this goes beyond the definitions quoted above. I'm trying to put what is at the basic core of why we do what we do when it comes to helping others.

Here's a personal case in point. I raised my twin boys who were both born with mild cerebral palsy and both with IQ's in the low 70's, as a single parent since they were 8 years old. There mother, who couldn't handle their disabilities spiraled out of control with deep meth and cocaine addictions and ended up in prison.

When I saw my attorney to seek a divorce and full custody of my kids, he asked me if I was sure they were mine. I thought back at all the partying that we used to do eight years prior and told him that there was a possibility that they weren't mine. He then said, "Well then, why not get a paternity test done to confirm if they are or are not yours, 'cause if they're not yours, you can just walk away from all this". Man, I remember like it was yesterday. I thought about that question for about 5 minutes, and then came to the conclusion that I did not want to take that test, because as far as I was concerned, they were mine. After 8 years of love and bonding, there were as much mine as they could be and that if I took that test and found out that they were not mine, it could possibly taint that relationship forever more and that was the last thing that I wanted to happen. That lawyer looked at me like I was nuts for wanting to take custody of two boys who were disabled and were possibly not mine to begin with.

So........here we are 22 years later. I raised them both as a single parent while at the same time, running a 40 million dollar a year business (36 store consumer electronics chain in SoCal). Between my business and my boys, every minute of every day was consumed.

Now many would say, man, there's not many fathers who would do that, and many fathers, even if they KNEW without a shadow of a doubt that the kids were his, would just walk away from that situation rather than be "burdened" with those expenses, both in time and money, for the rest of their lives in raising two kids with disabilities.

Would you say that that was a totally selfless act? See, to me, it was not. For me, the decision that I made in that lawyers office had to be made as I made it simply because I couldn't live with myself if I had done anything else. It would have left a hole in my very being that I would NEVER have been able to fill.

So..........the fact is, if I didn't need to fill that hole, if I didn't need to fill that void that would have been there for the rest of my life if I didn't make the decisions that I made, I never would have made them.

Didn't mean to get into all this personal shit, but I think it's the best example of explaining where I am coming from with all this.

People give to charities, people volunteer their time to give to others, but do you think for one moment that they would do these things if it didn't make them feel good, if it didn't provide a brighter flame of humanity in their hearts?

Commendable lwien - but not pertinent to our to argument about the definition of self serving.
I actually get where you are coming from though.

 

[lwien]

Commendable lwien - but not pertinent to our to argument about the definition of self serving.
I actually get where you are coming from though.

You're right. If we're just debating what the definition is of self-serving, then yes, my example was not pertinent. But like I said, I was going beyond the mere definitions, but rather addressing "why" we do what on the surface, seems to be a selfless act and I think it addresses AG's opening post, eh? If not, than I apologize for giving out more info than I probably should have.

 

[fidget]

Commendable lwien - but not pertinent to our to argument about the definition of self serving.
I actually get where you are coming from though.

You're right. If we're just debating what the definition is of self-serving, then yes, my example was not pertinent. But like I said, I was going beyond the mere definitions, but rather addressing "why" we do what on the surface, seems to be a selfless act and I think it addresses AG's opening post, eh? If not, than I apologize for giving out more info than I probably should have.

No problem lwien - it's good to talk.

 

[Revvy]

lwien, that is a touching story but it doesn't show how all human acts are self-serving. It just demonstrates your belief that all your acts are self-serving.

Examples of acts that are completely selfless?

 

[fidget]

lwien, that is a touching story but it doesn't show how all human acts are self-serving. It just demonstrates your belief that all your acts are self-serving.

Examples of acts that are completely selfless?

From a modern analytical philosophical point of view I'd say that it's a meaningless point as if there is no such thing as a selfless act then we are using meaningless words.From a semantic point of view it is possible to construe all our actions as selfish ones thus rendering as devoid of meaning the word selfish .

Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged

GALT: "Thank you, Hank."

REARDEN: "...If you understand that I acted for my own sake, you know that no gratitude is required."

GALT: "...That is why I thank you."

If we get too bogged down in semantics we all end up sounding like Sheldon Cooper.
I'd say if you do something knowing the cons outweigh the pros then you are acting "selflessly".

 

[pakalolo]

lwien, that is a touching story but it doesn't show how all human acts are self-serving. It just demonstrates your belief that all your acts are self-serving.

Examples of acts that are completely selfless?

From a modern analytical philosophical point of view I'd say that it's a meaningless point as if there is no such thing as a selfless act then we are using meaningless words.From a semantic point of view it is possible to construe all our actions as selfish ones thus rendering as devoid of meaning the word selfish .

Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged

GALT: "Thank you, Hank."

REARDEN: "...If you understand that I acted for my own sake, you know that no gratitude is required."

GALT: "...That is why I thank you."

If we get too bogged down in semantics we all end up sounding like Sheldon Cooper.
I'd say if you do something knowing the cons outweigh the pros then you are acting "selflessly".

fidget gets it. That was exactly my original point in this thread.

 

[djonkoman]

lwien, that is a touching story but it doesn't show how all human acts are self-serving. It just demonstrates your belief that all your acts are self-serving.

Examples of acts that are completely selfless?

From a modern analytical philosophical point of view I'd say that it's a meaningless point as if there is no such thing as a selfless act then we are using meaningless words.From a semantic point of view it is possible to construe all our actions as selfish ones thus rendering as devoid of meaning the word selfish .

Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged

GALT: "Thank you, Hank."

REARDEN: "...If you understand that I acted for my own sake, you know that no gratitude is required."

GALT: "...That is why I thank you."

If we get too bogged down in semantics we all end up sounding like Sheldon Cooper.
I'd say if you do something knowing the cons outweigh the pros then you are acting "selflessly".

but, it's human nature to weigh out the cons and pros and always choose the option with the most/highest weighing pros
there's plenty of evidence supporting free choice doesn't exist
to give a personak example, I often react in a way that seems to be bad for me, and lots pf people have said I'm making it hard for myself
but, I'm a very stubborn freedomloving logic/reason based person, and I don't like giving up any of my values, and these atributes are a greater stimulus for me then most(if not al) outside factors
and this creates situations in wich I come in conflict with figures of authority, since I follow my own path and of I encounter rules or laws that stand in my way, I don't agree with and that I can't see the point of, I will break them, and also stand by my choice and defend my choice
I also can't say certain things of I don't mean them(for example apologising, I can't apologise if I don't really mean it, I ca pretend certain things never happened but I can never be forced to apologise, even if by apologising I would avoid a lot of trouble)
I also understand the position of a captain in dutch history, I think he was trapped in the port of antwerpen, this was during the time belgium wanted indeoendance from the netherlands
and when his ship could go nowhere anymore, he spoke the famous words 'dan liever de lucht in' ('then I prefer going up into the sky') and he blew up the ship, rather dying then becoming a prisoner
and this exact same thing is expressed in a frisian saying, I think it was said be grutte pier(a frisian hero who fought against holland, and his army defeated the hollanders even while the frisians were all just farmers and the hollanders were with much more)
'leffer dea as slaef' (rather dead then slave)

anyway, my point is that both these cases had the big con of death, and still these ersons decided to die becase their inner motivation for freedom(and possibly pride, honor and nationalism) were even greater then death
and I believe that in any case of altruism the same mechabiosm is in play, a strong inner motivation to help others and do what you think is good, this doesn't directly mean it gives an immediate feel-good moment but still it's a personal motivation, and if you wouldn't obide to it you wouldn't be able to face yourself afterwards
and the collection of all these inner motivations makes up your personality