Selfism/Selfishness - Which is worse?

[AGBeer]

KNOWING that you are a selfish bastard/bitch but not giving a shit (cause its all about ME) - or - Being totally oblivious to the fact that your actions are solely self serving?

I would say that #2 takes a slight lead but they BOTH fucking suck.
Dont try to make YOUR shit about ME.



Sorry, Im just a little frustrated right now and the more that I assess this 'scenario' the more and more it becomes less about me (or US) and more about YOU.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

well, as Kurt Cobain said, it's all my fault ... so i apologize.

 

[reece]

I would say #1 is worse because the person is fully aware. With #2, there is a chance that when/if the person realizes/is made aware of their actions/attitude they may not like it and attempt to change.

 

[lwien]

I would say #1 is worse because the person is fully aware. With #2, there is a chance that when/if the person realizes/is made aware of their actions/attitude they may not like it and attempt to change.

While not "solely" self-serving, in the final analysis, isn't EVERYTHING we do self-serving?

 

[weedemon]

While not "solely" self-serving, in the final analysis, isn't EVERYTHING we do self-serving?

I was going to say the same thing!

It is important for us to try to be considerate of others of course, in the end we are the one responsible to look out for yourself. Who else will(or even should) do that for you?

 

[fidget]

I would say #1 is worse because the person is fully aware. With #2, there is a chance that when/if the person realizes/is made aware of their actions/attitude they may not like it and attempt to change.

While not "solely" self-serving, in the final analysis, isn't EVERYTHING we do self-serving?

Altruism - fallacy or reward in itself ?

 

[reece]

I would say #1 is worse because the person is fully aware. With #2, there is a chance that when/if the person realizes/is made aware of their actions/attitude they may not like it and attempt to change.

While not "solely" self-serving, in the final analysis, isn't EVERYTHING we do self-serving?

There is that philosophy, but I don't know that I completely agree with it. There were times, when my mother went hungry for a night so there was enough food for my brother and me.

I remember once, some family friends had a fire in their home and lost everything. My mom gave them our coats, some clothes, etc. We didn't have much and had to go out and replace what we gave away.

There are billionaires and millionaires that actively support policies that will directly reduce their wealth.

I'm having trouble finding what is self serving in these examples.

 

[aesthyrian]

#1 For sure is worse, knowing of a personality flaw you have and not bothering to correct it means you are either lazy or just don't care. I don't really make much time for those people.

 

[lwien]

Reece, what is self serving in those examples is that at their core, your mom, along with those billionaires and millionaires that have self sacrificed for the benefit of others have done so because it fulfills a personal need, for if it didn't fulfill that personal need, they wouldn't do it.

 

[AGBeer]

Fuck me!

Who needs marriage counseling when I have FC! Great (in depth) discussion!

Well, that and the fact that I was a little crabby cause I hadnt gotten vaked yet.
Shame on me sometimes

 

[fidget]

Reece, what is self serving in those examples is that at their core, your mom, along with those billionaires and millionaires that have self sacrificed for the benefit of others have done so because it fulfills a personal need, for if it didn't fulfill that personal need, they wouldn't do it.

Think you need to look up what self serving means lwien.

 

[lwien]

Think you need to look up what self serving means lwien.

I know EXACTLY what it means.

Do you think that when one serves others that it doesn't serve yourself in some way, be it to fulfill a need to nurture, or a need to give, a need to protect, etc, etc..........

The very fact that it DOES serve yourself in some way is the very catalyst for ones desire to serve others.

But apparently, fidget, you know something I don't, so please explain to me what that is.

 

[reece]

Reece, what is self serving in those examples is that at their core, your mom, along with those billionaires and millionaires that have self sacrificed for the benefit of others have done so because it fulfills a personal need, for if it didn't fulfill that personal need, they wouldn't do it.

Yeah, I know the argument but I don't agree. I think it is a way for selfish people to justify their selfishness.

 

[pakalolo]

Reece, what is self serving in those examples is that at their core, your mom, along with those billionaires and millionaires that have self sacrificed for the benefit of others have done so because it fulfills a personal need, for if it didn't fulfill that personal need, they wouldn't do it.

You are begging the question. Basically, you are saying that all actions are self-serving because they are.

 

[Plotinus]

Or he is saying that all things emanate from self-love, in which case he is in good company.

 

[Plotinus]

Actually now that I read through it that's an exceptionally poor Wikipedia entry. But the Maximes is still worth your time.

 

[fidget]

Think you need to look up what self serving means lwien.

I know EXACTLY what it means.

Do you think that when one serves others that it doesn't serve yourself in some way, be it to fulfill a need to nurture, or a need to give, a need to protect, etc, etc..........

The very fact that it DOES serve yourself in some way is the very catalyst for ones desire to serve others.

But apparently, fidget, you know something I don't, so please explain to me what that is.

Serving one's own interests, especially without concern for the needs or interests of others.
Exhibiting concern solely for one's own interests:

Preoccupied with one's own interests, often disregarding the truth or the interests, well-being, etc., of others.
Serving to further one's own selfish interests.

So I think that given the overall gist of these definitions it can be said that genuine altruism does not have to be self serving.

You're just playing Devil's Advocate lwien and thats fine.
But you have to be prepared for people to argue back.

 

[lwien]

Fidg, first off, I'm TOTALLY prepared to be challenged. Hell, if I wasn't, I wouldn't be as active here as I am. Secondly, I'm not just playing Devil's Advocate here, for I truly believe in what I am saying.

My thoughts on this goes beyond the definitions quoted above. I'm trying to put what is at the basic core of why we do what we do when it comes to helping others.

Here's a personal case in point. I raised my twin boys who were both born with mild cerebral palsy and both with IQ's in the low 70's, as a single parent since they were 8 years old. There mother, who couldn't handle their disabilities spiraled out of control with deep meth and cocaine addictions and ended up in prison.

When I saw my attorney to seek a divorce and full custody of my kids, he asked me if I was sure they were mine. I thought back at all the partying that we used to do eight years prior and told him that there was a possibility that they weren't mine. He then said, "Well then, why not get a paternity test done to confirm if they are or are not yours, 'cause if they're not yours, you can just walk away from all this". Man, I remember like it was yesterday. I thought about that question for about 5 minutes, and then came to the conclusion that I did not want to take that test, because as far as I was concerned, they were mine. After 8 years of love and bonding, there were as much mine as they could be and that if I took that test and found out that they were not mine, it could possibly taint that relationship forever more and that was the last thing that I wanted to happen. That lawyer looked at me like I was nuts for wanting to take custody of two boys who were disabled and were possibly not mine to begin with.

So........here we are 22 years later. I raised them both as a single parent while at the same time, running a 40 million dollar a year business (36 store consumer electronics chain in SoCal). Between my business and my boys, every minute of every day was consumed.

Now many would say, man, there's not many fathers who would do that, and many fathers, even if they KNEW without a shadow of a doubt that the kids were his, would just walk away from that situation rather than be "burdened" with those expenses, both in time and money, for the rest of their lives in raising two kids with disabilities.

Would you say that that was a totally selfless act? See, to me, it was not. For me, the decision that I made in that lawyers office had to be made as I made it simply because I couldn't live with myself if I had done anything else. It would have left a hole in my very being that I would NEVER have been able to fill.

So..........the fact is, if I didn't need to fill that hole, if I didn't need to fill that void that would have been there for the rest of my life if I didn't make the decisions that I made, I never would have made them.

Didn't mean to get into all this personal shit, but I think it's the best example of explaining where I am coming from with all this.

People give to charities, people volunteer their time to give to others, but do you think for one moment that they would do these things if it didn't make them feel good, if it didn't provide a brighter flame of humanity in their hearts?

 

[pakalolo]

lwien, that is a touching story but it doesn't show how all human acts are self-serving. It just demonstrates your belief that all your acts are self-serving.

 

[reece]

I think you did what you did because it was the right thing to do. I have trouble believing your only concern was with how you would feel about yourself. How you feel about yourself is a byproduct. Not the cause. But I'm not in your head or heart. However, you contradict yourself. Was it because of the bond formed through an eight year parent/children relationship (you were afraid of the test because you didn't want to risk damaging that bond)? Or, was it because you couldn't live with yourself? And why would you not be able to live with yourself? If there is no answer to that question, then not being able to live with yourself is the cause. If there is an answer, not being able to live with yourself is an effect.

Who volunteers for the first time thinking, "I'll feel great about myself?" They may want to help. They may do it because it looks good on a resume. That "brighter flame" only comes after doing something for someone other than yourself. Once people experience it, they may look forward to it if/when they continue to volunteer, but it still isn't the reason, let alone the sole reason.

That isn't to say there aren't selfish reasons for volunteering. But not everyone who volunteers is being selfish. That time could be spent in sleep, entertainment, etc. Instead, they are serving a cause other than themselves. To say someone is selfish because they happen to feel good about doing good, to describe that feeling as the cause for their actions is pretty cynical.

 

[lwien]

lwien, that is a touching story but it doesn't show how all human acts are self-serving. It just demonstrates your belief that all your acts are self-serving.

The weird part about that is that there is no way in hell that I could believe that my act with my kids was self serving unless I firmly believed that Mother Theresa's acts were self serving as well (not putting myself in the same class at all, just using her as a juxtaposition).

I think you did what you did because it was the right thing to do.

But even though it was the right thing to do, there are many people that wouldn't have done that. Lots of dead beat Dads out there. The question is, WHY did I do it. Being the "right thing" isn't the answer, 'cause if it was, everyone would do it, eh?

I have trouble believing your only concern was with how you would feel about yourself. How you feel about yourself is a byproduct. Not the cause.

Correct. But I distinctly remember thinking about taking that paternity test and what would happen if it came out negative, and how that would affect me, and how that affect would affect my boys. It would hurt them..............deeply, and there is no way in hell that I could allow that to happen. So the question is............why? Sure, it was the "right" thing to do, but WHY did I do it?

However, you contradict yourself. Was it because of the bond formed through an eight year parent/children relationship (you were afraid of the test because you didn't want to risk damaging that bond)?

Yes.

Or, was it because you couldn't live with yourself?

And yes. It's not an either/or situation.

Who volunteers for the first time thinking, "I'll feel great about myself?" They may want to help. They may do it because it looks good on a resume. That "brighter flame" only comes after doing something for someone other than yourself. Once people experience it, they may look forward to it if/when they continue to volunteer, but it still isn't the reason, let alone the sole reason.

That isn't to say there aren't selfish reasons for volunteering. But not everyone who volunteers is being selfish. That time could be spent in sleep, entertainment, etc. Instead, they are serving a cause other than themselves. To say someone is selfish because they happen to feel good about doing good, to describe that feeling as the cause for their actions is pretty cynical.

But for many, volunteering is MUCH more rewarding than sleep or entertainment.

I'm not suggesting that everyone goes into these actions with the preconceived thought that they are doing it for selfish reasons. For the most part, that is NOT a conscious reason to do these things. But I do believe that the bottom line is that if they didn't WANT to do these things, they wouldn't. So the question than is, where does that "want" come from? After you peel back all the layers, like an onion, in looking for the answer to that question, I believe that at its bass core, conscious or not, it is for selfish reasons.

 

[reece]

But even though it was the right thing to do, there are many people that wouldn't have done that. Lots of dead beat Dads out there. The question is, WHY did I do it. Being the "right thing" isn't the answer, 'cause if it was, everyone would do it, eh?

No, not everyone does the right thing (every time). What someone else does or doesn't do has no bearing on why you do or don't do something. I think you believe if it isn't a reason for you to do it, it isn't a reason for anyone to do it. Everyone has different motivations. Some of those dead beat dads may think they are doing the right thing by not being in their kids' lives (some are correct). But even with all things being equal regarding perception of right and wrong, not everyone will choose to do the right thing for solely that reason. But some do.

But you are right. I don't think the right thing to do was the underlying reason. The underlying reason is they are your children and you love them and you are a responsible human being. That is what made it the right thing to do, for you. You did what you were supposed to do. Because you love them more than yourself. Not because you didn't want to feel bad about yourself. A truly selfish person can justify his selfish acts with ease. A truly selfish person would have walked out of the door and never looked back.

If you really believe your actions were because of selfishness, do you think you really love your children? I don't see how you could if the underlying reason for everything you've done for them was some sort of selfishness.

 

[DaProfessor]

I'm vaked, so I'll keep it simple...

I agree with Iwien. All human action is based on fulfilling a personal need/want. For if it didn't provide a reward, there would be no reason to perform the needed action(s). In the case of someone who appears to be 'sacrificing' or 'suffering' because of something they have chosen to do, it can be reasoned that they are still doing it to fulfill their need not to feel guilt, shame etc. But since the explanation for this selfish need has to teased out by 'reason', I feel that all explanation arrived to by this method are purely subjective and prone to attack. Still, I completely agree with Iwien.

Humans are selfish beings no matter how you spin it

Edit: Oh yeah, just to make it clear, I ain't dick ridin' Iwien. I just happen to have the same POV on this topic Continue on fellow vapers...

 

[momofthegoons]

When I first started reading this thread, I thought, "Well obviously lwien has never had children or he wouldn't have this viewpoint." After reading farther and discovering that not only was this not the case, but lwien has raised disabled children, I have an entirely different view. And, I have to agree with him; he makes a good point.

We parents like to believe that what we do is for our children, and for the most part, that is true. But, lwien is right in that there is an underlying reason that is for us. It's the same underlying reason that we had when we make the decision to have the children in the first place; usually a need to love and nurture. Would I give my life for my children? Of course I would. There isn't much that I wouldn't sacrifice or do for my kids. But, the core of the reason that the children exist is a need within a person to become a parent.

Also knew from the get go that AG was pissed at his wife for getting in his shit about vaking.....

 

[lwien]

Edit: Oh yeah, just to make it clear, I ain't dick ridin' Iwien.

Now there's a visual I didn't need at 7:30 in the mornin'.
(And don't get any ideas that it would have been ok if you waited till the afternoon either.)