Sativa/Indica dichotomy: truth-based or

[muunch]

perpetuated bullshit/marketing etc?

Based on this discussion on reddit...
https://www.reddit.com/r/microgrowery/comments/79cf2a/is_the_sativa_indica_dichotomy_real/

where this article was posted:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0133292

"The inaccuracy of reported ancestry in marijuana likely stems from the predominantly clandestine nature of Cannabis growing and breeding over the past century. Recognizing this, marijuana strains sold for medical use are often referred to as Sativa or Indica “dominant” to describe their morphological characteristics and therapeutic effects [10]. Our results suggest that the reported ancestry of some of the most common marijuana strains only partially captures their true ancestry."


It also goes on to state stuff about strain names being bullshit as widespread identifiers which is a whole different issue... but...

"...a marijuana strain name does not necessarily represent a genetically unique variety. To investigate the genetic identity of named marijuana strains at the genetic level, we compared samples with identical names to each other and to all other genotyped samples. We found that in 6 of 17 comparisons (35%), samples were more genetically similar to samples with different names than to samples with identical names. We conclude that the genetic identity of a marijuana strain cannot be reliably inferred by its name or by its reported ancestry."


Anyway, interested to hear some thoughts. Cheers

 

[biohacker]

Hey @muunch i'm trying my hardest to find the thread similar to this here. But yeah i've done some research on this and my opinion is that it's all bullshit and marketing. There aren't many true landrace strains out there, and regardless it always makes me laugh when people say this and that strain work for them, but meanwhile that same strain grown by a different grower creates a completely different end product IMO.

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

@biohacker Well you could be right,but also you should take in account that strains have different phenotypes (can be 2,3.4... +) ,and some are so different from other that you could swear it is not the same strain. Also another thing that reflects on the chemical composition is also the time of harvest - Early vs Late. Potency and terpene levels depend on the way it is grown,and the nutrients, bio vs chemical , hydro vs soil.. etc... I've read that there are nutrients that promote terpene content and that there are UV lights added to increase potency.. So there are really a lot of variables ,therefore it is the main reason why there is so much variation between one source to another.
For example you would never be the guy you are ,if you were grown under different conditions and fed different foods, done different activities,received different info about the world . DNA is not all powerful,imo same conditions are contributing to the similarity between individuals as much as it.

 

[biohacker]

@Abysmal Vapor very good points. Add to that effects dependent on temperature, and you open up another can of worms. I still shop for sativas and indicas, but realize it's all mainly hybrids and you don't know what you'll get until you try it. I also find effects much more pronounced with a lower tolerance. When tolerance is high, everything kinda just feels the same to me. But everyone is different. I'm still trying hard to find the thread that this is a duplicate of, yet no luck so far!

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

@Abysmal Vapor very good points. Add to that effects dependent on temperature, and you open up another can of worms. I still shop for sativas and indicas, but realize it's all mainly hybrids and you don't know what you'll get until you try it. I also find effects much more pronounced with a lower tolerance. When tolerance is high, everything kinda just feels the same to me. But everyone is different. I'm still trying hard to find the thread that this is a duplicate of, yet no luck so far!

Marketing will always be a different reality, you can see that in the NL coffeeshops.. They all have Amnesia,Widow and shit... but actually most of the times those are just re-labeled other strains by similarity in taste or appearance.
For myself being in a country where everything about mj is forbidden, i've rarely had the luxury of even knowing what i am vaping,so i am happy with anything that tastes ok and that doesnt make me sick by cough out my lungs.. or soaring my throat.
Your point about tolerance is very good,but i am currently on 6th week of my involuntary T-break.. and i am sure that i will consider anything top notch as i break it.. i think i couldnt care less of either it is S or I...,i am sure i will feel both stoned and high from any strain.

 

[ChooChooCharlie]

This thread has a similar discussion:

http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/s...-effects-of-cannabis-—-placebo-or-real.22328/

Someone suggested a double blind study.

Gave it my best shot. I usually do sativa hybrids in the afternoon, crossed with Mexican dominant strains like Don Julio or Don Eduardo. Followed instructions, saw double while blind drunk. After initial wave of euphoria, it mellowed into a couch lock, followed by a sustained floor lock. The only anxiety I felt from the sativa was whether I could get to the toilet before peeing myself. Study results inconclusive. Repeating today.

 

[biohacker]

There is some good info in this thread; for those interested:

http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/sativa-lovers.24064/

 

[C No Ego]

If you look at marinol ( synthetic thc)... it is all thc... it is no good for the most part and just makes people anxious and paranoid... that is a perfect example of thc by itself is what it is... all the other natural metabolic structures that cannabis creates add direction capability to thc and cbd... terpenes are the best directors of which way thc or cbd will take in your biology when you ingest them along with thc.. to prove this- if you have access to marinol eat a few whole black peppercorns before dosing with marinol... after dosing notice the different effects from adding that beta caryophyllene into the mix...
I've seen studies too that show where a cannabis species originated by examining the terpenes in the strain... certain places on the earth provide particular metallic oxides in the soil while plants growing there will have those oxides as the base to make terpenes from... that thousands of years of evolution dictating it... we have just started moving those different originating plants to other locals introducing different mica levels etc... after just a few breeding sessions < (the good seesions) with a once land race genetic the terp profiles will start to change instantly... we can say it's a land race genetic but each new grow will be once removed- twice removed- etc... until eventually the strain does not contain many original markers... I'm sure the dna of the plant will at first sway it's growth according to what metallic oxides it needs genetically speaking but will eventually form new sesquiterpenes from available oxides after it was moved from it's home environment and bred elsewhere...

Edit- breeders could examine what oxides are in the soil from where their strain originates and maybe emulate those metallic profiles in the grow medium to keep the oxides at similar functioning to produce terpenes from them

 

[invertedisdead]

It's well documented that the majority of the natural wild heirloom cannabis is/was sativa, with indica (some call Afghanica) being absolutely the minority. Hindu Kush being the most noticable afghanica landrace. This article seems like it has two different statements, I certainly agree with this "We conclude that the genetic identity of a marijuana strain cannot be reliably inferred by its name " but I also think there are certain obvious differences between sativa and indica, especially in the structure of the plant, but also the psychoactive effects. It's worth noting that most modern cultivar strains in America now are certainly hybrids.

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

terpenes are the best directors of which way thc or cbd will take in your biology when you ingest them along with thc.. ""

This how i always felt it ,even without knowing the science behind. I always felt like the THC is the raw power in MJ which determines how far and how fast i will get somewhere,but the direction of the journey is dictated by the aromatherapy properties of MJ. I have experimented a lot with various essential oils along my OILhuasca journeys and know very well that just the right combination of enzymes and otherwise unactive substance can unlock its true powers.

 

[C No Ego]

This how i always felt it ,even without knowing the science behind. I always felt like the THC is the raw power in MJ which determines how far and how fast i will get somewhere,but the direction of the journey is dictated by the aromatherapy properties of MJ. I have experimented a lot with various essential oils along my OILhuasca journeys and know very well that just the right combination of enzymes and otherwise unactive substance can unlock its trough powers.

freakin awesome man! the rate of evaporation or the compounds' stability is why they direct effects.. the less stable a compound the more it's losing its essence everywhere it goes.. it's why you smell cannabis at room temp, because the aromatic terps are evaporating ( releasing into atmosphere) at very low heat levels.. those aromatics will activate ligand bound receptors in a minor way, like just starting the signal and when the more stable and less volatile thc comes along it binds to the receptor to transmit fully through the ligand channel... here is a chart showing the heat release points of the major and minor cannabionoids


Phytocannabinoids, their boiling points, and properties


?-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC)
Boiling point: 157*C / 314.6 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Euphoriant, Analgesic, Antiinflammatory, Antioxidant, Antiemetic

cannabidiol (CBD)
Boiling point: 160-180*C / 320-356 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Anxiolytic, Analgesic, Antipsychotic, Antiinflammatory, Antioxidant, Antispasmodic

Cannabinol (CBN)
Boiling point: 185*C / 365 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Oxidation, breakdown, product, Sedative, Antibiotic

cannabichromene (CBC)
Boiling point: 220*C / 428 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Antiinflammatory, Antibiotic, Antifungal

cannabigerol (CBG)
Boiling point: MP52
Properties: Antiinflammatory, Antibiotic, Antifungal

?-8-tetrahydrocannabinol (?-8-THC)
Boiling point: 175-178*C / 347-352.4 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Resembles ?-9-THC, Less psychoactive, More stable Antiemetic

tetrahydrocannabivarin (THCV)
Boiling point: < 220*C / <428 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Analgesic, Euphoriant

ß-caryophyllene
Boiling point: 119*C / 246.2 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Antiinflammatory, Cytoprotective (gastric mucosa), Antimalarial


Terpenoid essential oils, their boiling points, and properties


ß-myrcene
Boiling point: 166-168*C / 330.8-334.4 degree Fahrenheit, Properties: Analgesic. Antiinflammatory, Antibiotic, Antimutagenic


d-limonene
Boiling point: 177*C / 350.6 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Cannabinoid agonist?, Immune potentiator, Antidepressant, Antimutagenic

linalool
Boiling point: 198*C / 388.4 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Sedative, Antidepressant, Anxiolytic, Immune potentiator

pulegone
Boiling point: 224*C / 435.2 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Memory booster?, AChE inhibitor, Sedative, Antipyretic

1,8-cineole (eucalyptol)
Boiling point: 176*C / 348.8 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: AChE inhibitor, Increases cerebral, blood flow, Stimulant, Antibiotic, Antiviral, Antiinflammatory, Antinociceptive

a-pinene
Boiling point: 156*C / 312.8 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Antiinflammatory, Bronchodilator, Stimulant, Antibiotic, Antineoplastic, AChE inhibitor

a-terpineol
Boiling point: 217-218*C / 422.6-424.4 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Sedative, Antibiotic, AChE inhibitor, Antioxidant, Antimalarial

terpineol-4-ol
Boiling point: 209*C / 408.2 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: AChE inhibitor. Antibiotic

p-cymene
Boiling point: 177*C / 350.6 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Antibiotic, Anticandidal, AChE inhibitor



Flavonoid and phytosterol components, their boiling points, and properties


apigenin
Boiling point: 178*C / 352.4 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Anxiolytic, Antiinflammatory, Estrogenic

quercetin
Boiling point: 250*C / 482 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Antioxidant, Antimutagenic, Antiviral, Antineoplastic

cannflavin A
Boiling point: 182*C / 359.6 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: COX inhibitor, LO inhibitor

ß-sitosterol
Boiling point: 134*C / 273.2 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Antiinflammatory, 5-a-reductase, inhibitor

 

[Flower of empathy]

Edit- breeders could examine what oxides are in the soil from where their strain originates and maybe emulate those metallic profiles in the grow medium to keep the oxides at similar functioning to produce terpenes from them

you're forgetting another smaller can of worms to open - the often unique microbiological life in the soil which contributes compounds that can't be formed by the plant...and that is pretty impossible to recreate imo

I've always wondered how to distinguish sativa / indica for sure, i know i can't - eg i've seen more sativa looking plants in Tajikistan than in Kerala (south india)...
Libanese genetics look pretty sativa like but there is definitive a ruderalis influence in the gene pool - 2% chance for autoflowering ime
U never know how what influences have been in a region over past centuries, maybe it was bred on purpose or it was only an accident that some chinese travellers walked by and ate some hemp seed from home on the way...

Last breeder i knew that had real deal land races was Bluehemp (gone now ) - seeds from a field of at least 300 plants with no selection conserves the natural variance of the genetics (and that variance makes hash taste so much better than extracts from one selection...). It's like people - imagine only saving the prettiest boy and girl from an island before it disappears due to climate change...that's what most breeders sell as 'landrace' nowadays.

 

[Diggy Smalls]

I'm still on the fence as to wether I even believe different strains have different effect on me besides body/mind heavy.

 

[C No Ego]

you're forgetting another smaller can of worms to open - the often unique microbiological life in the soil which contributes compounds that can't be formed by the plant...and that is pretty impossible to recreate imo

I've always wondered how to distinguish sativa / indica for sure, i know i can't - eg i've seen more sativa looking plants in Tajikistan than in Kerala (south india)...
Libanese genetics look pretty sativa like but there is definitive a ruderalis influence in the gene pool - 2% chance for autoflowering ime
U never know how what influences have been in a region over past centuries, maybe it was bred on purpose or it was only an accident that some chinese travellers walked by and ate some hemp seed from home on the way...

Last breeder i knew that had real deal land races was Bluehemp (gone now ) - seeds from a field of at least 300 plants with no selection conserves the natural variance of the genetics (and that variance makes hash taste so much better than extracts from one selection...). It's like people - imagine only saving the prettiest boy and girl from an island before it disappears due to climate change...that's what most breeders sell as 'landrace' nowadays.

exactly... once removed from it's native soil the same exact grow medium can never be replicated... maybe close but not exact... I loved watching the bubbleman videos back in the day.. the Jamaican dude who was growing little 6 inch plants out on the mountansides to keep the fuzz from taking his crops... all he would do all day is pull balls from the little plants to keep them from going to male LOL... maybe one foot was his tallest plant.. that is some inventive breeeding

 

[jojo monkey]

the often unique microbiological life in the soil which contributes compounds that can't be formed by the plant...and that is pretty impossible to recreate imo

'
http://generalhydroponics.com/subculture/

You can buy em? Micros for hire. And only the ones you want!

 

[Flower of empathy]

http://generalhydroponics.com/subculture/

You can buy em? Micros for hire. And only the ones you want!

So are native for the strains adaptation? and u know for shure they will be beneficial and survive in your medium?

A decade ago they tried to sell the same thing in europe called 'effective microorganisms' - a 'special selected mixture' of a few out of thousands different familys, of course only the 'best'
imo totally BS, microorganisms are as diverse and adapted as people (will usain bolt be faster on the mt everest than a sherpa?)
eg mycorrhizae is a whole family of fungi, some higher forms can only exist on products from lower forms etc - there is more beneficcial micro life in some fresh horse shit and at least u know it is living...

Sometimes u have to wonder - if all the promises of cannabis fertilizer companys would be true, the world food problem would be solved

 

[hibeam]

Sometimes u have to wonder - if all the promises of cannabis fertilizer companys would be true, the world food problem would be solved

Yes...this kind of discussion is one more reason to see cannabis as a teacher plant for farmers...if the best effects come from plants the most wholesomely grown.