Reaching combustion with trapped oils

[pakalolo]

This video is a good example of how oils grow in temperature, and cause fibers to burn

Anyway, this was fun. Back to talking about the Herbalizer. Wonderful device.

That video is about linseed oil. Linseed oil is a drying oil, the oils involved in vapourizing cannabis are not. The difference is important because the exothermic reaction illustrated by that video is a characteristic of drying oils. They are called that because they dry to a solid coat through polymerization, a process that gives off considerable heat when confined.

 

[luchiano]

That video is about linseed oil. Linseed oil is a drying oil, the oils involved in vapourizing cannabis are not. The difference is important because the exothermic reaction illustrated by that video is a characteristic of drying oils. They are called that because they dry to a solid coat through polymerization, a process that gives off considerable heat when confined.

Did you even read my post and how it connected with the video?..

The point was oils absorb heat and hold it we'll, even when the temperature it is exposed to doesn't change. I posted that video to give an example of this happening. Obviously, I know it's about linseed oil, I posted it. All oils will heat up fast and oxidize due to their nature of absorbing oxygen, unless they are saturated which means it will take much longer to oxidize then a polyunsaturated or monounsaturated. Polyunsaturated will be the quickest since it will be able to hold more oxygen. This is why most seed oils, i.e., linseed oil, degrade quickly, they are rich in polyunsaturated fat. Even the video talked about COOKING oils doing the same. It's all based on the chains. Cannabis is no different, except there isn't as much oil but when used in a certain way like vaporizing, the same can happen, and we seen it in the case of @grokit and @Tweek and others who had some herb burn all of a sudden even though it shouldn't have.

Cannabis oils absorb oxygen very easy, and when you use a vaporizer, you are exposing it to a lot of hot air which will cause a large amount of oxygen to be easily absorbed by the oils quickly. We know this because when you see a red oil or a dark oil that gives a body high, the oxygen has oxidized the oil. Most people who vaporize know what I'm talking about. People who have had hash sitting around for a while also know what I'm talking about.

EDIT:read this article, then do more research on polyunsaturated fat to learn how it works. Even hempseed oil is rich in polyunsaturated fat.
Spontaneous combustion of vegetable oils
http://www.vtct.org.uk/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=WHOyNPadm4g=&tabid=225

 

[pakalolo]

Did you even read my post and how it connected with the video?..

The point was oils absorb heat and hold it we'll, even when the temperature it is exposed to doesn't change. I posted that video to give an example of this happening. Obviously, I know it's about linseed oil, I posted it. All oils will heat up fast and oxidize due to their nature of absorbing oxygen, unless they are saturated which means it will take much longer to oxidize then a polyunsaturated or monounsaturated. Polyunsaturated will be the quickest since it will be able to hold more oxygen. This is why most seed oils, i.e., linseed oil, degrade quickly, they are rich in polyunsaturated fat. The same with poppyseed oil. It has shown to cause fires for the same reasons. Even the video talked about COOKING oils doing the same. It's all based on the chains. Cannabis is no different, except there isn't as much oil but when used in a certain way like vaporizing, the same can happen, and we seen it in the case of @grokit and @Tweek and others who had some herb burn all of a sudden even though it shouldn't have.

Cannabis oils absorb oxygen very easy, and when you use a vaporizer, you are exposing it to a lot of hot air which will cause a large amount of oxygen to be easily absorbed by the oils. We know this because when you see a red oil or a dark oil that gives a body high, the oxygen has oxidized the oil. Most people who vaporize know what I'm talking about.

Of course I read your post, that's why I posted the clarification. I think you need to stop theorizing and drawing unwarranted conclusions. Actually, I don't care if you do or don't, but I do care when you mislead others. You just told us you used an example of an exothermic reaction from polymerization to support your theory that the oils in cannabis somehow hold enough heat long enough to ignite cannabis.

Forgetting the completely misleading example, think about the physics. We are talking about an extremely small amount of oil. It is simply not enough to have the specific heat needed to ignite cannabis.

 

[luchiano]

Of course I read your post, that's why I posted the clarification. I think you need to stop theorizing and drawing unwarranted conclusions. Actually, I don't care if you do or don't, but I do care when you mislead others. You just told us you used an example of an exothermic reaction from polymerization to support your theory that the oils in cannabis somehow hold enough heat long enough to ignite cannabis.

Forgetting the completely misleading example, think about the physics. We are talking about an extremely small amount of oil. It is simply not enough to have the specific heat needed to ignite cannabis.

Yeah, you didn't understand. I didn't forget about physics because I told you WHY this happened and how it relates to the situation grok it and tweet went through(polyunsaturated oil, oxygen, and vaporizing). I even explained it to you in simple terms, yet you still seem to ignore what I wrote to put cannabis in some special class. We went through this before. No matter what I post you have your mind made up, and I will just keep typing the same thing in a hundred different ways.

Btw, @Tweek now you see why I wrote "alleged" in my other post. If I don't it will really start some stuff with certain people.

 

[pakalolo]

No, I understood perfectly. I didn't disagree with your basic premise that oils could behave in the manner you described, I pointed out that the quantities involved made the theory untenable. You accuse me of ignoring things, but this is something you seem perfectly happy to ignore.

My other concern—which you ignored—was that you used something to support your theory that appears vaguely related but is actually misleading.

 

[luchiano]

AGAIN, I did not ignore this. I explained how this can happen in my first post on the topic in that thread. Read it again, I'm not typing it. The title of this thread is exactly how it can happen. Trapped oils going high in temperature, and burning cellulose.

It is not misleading if you read it in context with the rest of the post. You can't pick a post apart and then claim things don't relate. The whole post was about auto ignition of cellulose, how long it takes for it to happen, and oil speeding up the process. That post helped explain my previous posts.

Anyway, this is tiring. You won, yeah you're right.

 

[syrupy]

This thread makes me feel stoopid.

 

[Zookeeper]

Linseed oil and cannabis oil in the same category? No wonder people smoke green bho and call it good, they mustve just graduated from huffing!

Linseed oil fires remind me of putting urethane over hardened enamel. The enamel will be chemically "too hot" for the urethane top coat and destroy the finish to create vents, even decades after all solvent has evaporated from the enamel. Not the same at all,I know..


Cannabis oil holds heat in. If it 'steamed' off, it would crack glass instead of running. If cannabis oil didnt hold heat in, vapor probably wouldnt float down the airpath. To be honest if your concentrates are oily at all, they have tons of moisture and water soluble's in them, which can hold heat up to 550-600 degrees before being forced out of the mix. "Oil" and "wax" are just slang, neither are characteristics of active cannabinoids. My theory/experience anyway.

 

[luchiano]

Linseed oil and cannabis oil in the same category? No wonder people smoke green bho and call it good, they mustve just graduated from huffing!

Linseed oil fires remind me of putting urethane over hardened enamel. The enamel will be chemically "too hot" for the urethane top coat and destroy the finish to create vents, even decades after all solvent has evaporated from the enamel. Not the same at all,I know..


Cannabis oil holds heat in. If it 'steamed' off, it would crack glass instead of running. If cannabis oil didnt hold heat in, vapor probably wouldnt float down the airpath. To be honest if your concentrates are oily at all, they have tons of moisture and water soluble's in them, which can hold heat up to 550-600 degrees before being forced out of the mix. "Oil" and "wax" are just slang, neither are characteristics of active cannabinoids. My theory/experience anyway.

Context, read everything in context.

The point was the "oils" as you say holds heat and caused the plant fibers to burn. That was the point of the discussion. What is the point of posting the subliminal diss about comparing linseed oil to cannabis, then just agree with what Im saying about the "oils" holding heat?.

Man, what the........ forget it.

 

[MysticVaper]

Of course I read your post, that's why I posted the clarification. I think you need to stop theorizing and drawing unwarranted conclusions. Actually, I don't care if you do or don't, but I do care when you mislead others. You just told us you used an example of an exothermic reaction from polymerization to support your theory that the oils in cannabis somehow hold enough heat long enough to ignite cannabis.

Forgetting the completely misleading example, think about the physics. We are talking about an extremely small amount of oil. It is simply not enough to have the specific heat needed to ignite cannabis.

JMHO this is more an issue of how quickly or slowly your draw is. My experience seems to have confirmed that the temperature of the heating element does not represent the temperature of the material. This is why combustion can and does happen even with coils set to 365F. The temperature of the material depends more with how fast or slow the draw is.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

JMHO this is more an issue of how quickly or slowly your draw is. My experience seems to have confirmed that the temperature of the heating element does not represent the temperature of the material. This is why combustion can and does happen even with coils set to 365F. The temperature of the material depends more with how fast or slow the draw is.

how do you know the coil (presumably the hottest part of the vape) is really at 365°F? or maybe i have really strange herb that can vape at 425°F without combusting.

 

[MysticVaper]

how do you know the coil (presumably the hottest part of the vape) is really at 365°F? or maybe i have really strange herb that can vape at 425°F without combusting.

Of course we can't assume that the temperature gauge in our device is accurate as it may not be. My understanding is that combustion happens at about 450F that would make sense that you'd be able to vape at 425.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

and yet you have combustion at 365°F? how does that happen?

 

[MysticVaper]

and yet you have combustion at 365°F? how does that happen?

My hypothesis is that if your draw is slow enough the temperature of your material can actually reach quite higher temperatures than the coil itself. Why? Because the coil is made of ceramic or whatever other material, which usually requires a lot more heat/energy to reach a certain temperature. In other words, dry herb material will absorb heat/energy at a much quicker rate than ceramic/other coil materials. A good example might be that different liquids have different boiling points, the difference in boiling temperatures being directly attributed to the amount of energy the liquid can absorb and how quickly it can absorb it. This explains why the speed of draw is so important in the equation of vaporizing temperature. It greatly impacts your temperature equation being that it is the one variable factor. Never been the best at physics. JMO. Cheers.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

yeah, i keep going around on this topic, but i'm pretty sure (software weenie, not physicist) that you can't get the temperature hotter than the coil ... else we've solved the world's energy crisis.

the slow draw is so the air has time to pick up heat from the heater and to melt the trichomes and extract the bioactive components, and to not cool the heater too much if it does not have dynamic temperature control with sufficient power.

for example, my heater coil does not drop temp with an inhale (batteries can deliver 360 watts of power) ... and i've measured the temp in the middle of the herb, so i know exactly what is being delivered to the herb.

 

[MysticVaper]

yeah, i keep going around on this topic, but i'm pretty sure (software weenie, not physicist) that you can't get the temperature hotter than the coil ... else we've solved the world's energy crisis.

the slow draw is so the air has time to pick up heat from the heater and to melt the trichomes and extract the bioactive components, and to not cool the heater too much if it does not have dynamic temperature control with sufficient power.

for example, my heater coil does not drop temp with an inhale (batteries can deliver 360 watts of power) ... and i've measured the temp in the middle of the herb, so i know exactly what is being delivered to the herb.

Good for you, sounds like you have an awesome machine. You've also made some valid important points. It still seems reasonable to me that if the herb material has a much lower resistance to heat than the coil material does, it should at least theoretically, reach much higher temperatures with a smaller amount of energy than that required to bring a coil to to 365F.

Otherwise why would you hear so many people using relatively well-calibrated equipment such as the DBV and still combusting if the draw is too slow, at coil temperatures under 400F? Ask any vaper to take a long enough, slow enough drag at 395F on a decently calibrated machine, and tell me if most of them won't testify to their experience that it is possible to combust at coil temps below 400F. Combustion is higher than 400F. What would be your explanation for such phenomena?

 

[Hippie Dickie]

my explanation? faulty temperature reading. it is actually much, much higher.

i put my thermometer probe directly in contact with the hottest part of my oven tube, i.e. the hottest part of the vaporizer. no fudging of the reading to approximate the temperature in the herb.

 

[MysticVaper]

my explanation? faulty temperature reading. it is actually much, much higher.

i put my thermometer probe directly in contact with the hottest part of my oven tube, i.e. the hottest part of the vaporizer. no fudging of the reading to approximate the temperature in the herb.

Ok. That would make sense. Never measured any coil temps personally, so I wouldn't know. Happy vaping!