RBT Sprout

[RastaBuddhaTao]

Many thanks to my man "The Professor" for the hours of brainstorming last week that are the basis for this new development project also driven by the desired outcomes work here along with the input from Greenlane.

The seed will use a fully integrated architecture that is rugged in nature and will survive a drop or two. The unit will carry a one-year warranty and will have a life expectancy of 3 - 5 years under normal use with 15 - 30 loads a week being used (typical medicinal usage of 3-6 loads per day). The thought is that with advancements in this industry and likely upgrade cycle of the average user this seems like a realistic and reasonable goal.

The exterior will be made of rugged, high end materials with a touch of class. The load chamber and heater compartment will be made of ceramic and a metal heater will be used in order to minimize any warm-up time. The unit will employ regulated power and at least three temperature ranges will be available. The user interface will be a single button and a single (potentially multi-color LED) and on/off, power setting, and battery low indicator will be employed. (see desired outcomes post). The unit will have an access door / lid to the load chamber that will be robust and simple to use. Vapor cooling will be used and its ability to access / clean will be a priority. The charging will be via a USB-C port and the design target is to have the ability to run three average sized loads on Medium heat continually given a one hour charging time. Vapor quality will be better than current tech with uniform roasting being the measure.

In a nut shell, the SEED will be a device similar to the Milaana fixing the issues of 1. loose broken glass, 2. regulated power 3. More even roasting of the load 4. a POD system 5. Smaller form factor 6. Integrated vapor conditioning 7. Improvement in the look and feel to be on par with best in class devices now commanding > $200 price point.

Please comment any thoughts you may have here and review the desired outcomes thread to better understand the design drivers. Thanks in advance for your help in making our next product something that is seen as a superior product in this competitive market space.

http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/desired-outcomes.37035/#post-1363113

 

[oddjobold]

Cant wait to suck on your seed (i made it i was first!)

 

[VAPEHUNTER]

I’m definitely watching this one

 

[Shit Snacks]

Excited to see this seed planted and look forward to the fruits of labor (vapor)

 

[muunch]

In a nut shell, the SEED will be

I see(d) what you did there.

Excited to see this germinate!

 

[virtualpurple]

Love what I’m seeing!

 

[shredder]

Many thanks to my man "The Professor" for the hours of brainstorming last week that are the basis for this new development project also driven by the desired outcomes work here along with the input from Greenlane.

The seed will use a fully integrated architecture that is rugged in nature and will survive a drop or two. The unit will carry a one-year warranty and will have a life expectancy of 3 - 5 years under normal use with 15 - 30 loads a week being used (typical medicinal usage of 3-6 loads per day). The thought is that with advancements in this industry and likely upgrade cycle of the average user this seems like a realistic and reasonable goal.

The exterior will be made of rugged, high end materials with a touch of class. The load chamber and heater compartment will be made of ceramic and a metal heater will be used in order to minimize any warm-up time. The unit will employ regulated power and at least three temperature ranges will be available. The user interface will be a single button and a single (potentially multi-color LED) and on/off, power setting, and battery low indicator will be employed. (see desired outcomes post). The unit will have an access door / lid to the load chamber that will be robust and simple to use. Vapor cooling will be used and its ability to access / clean will be a priority. The charging will be via a USB-C port and the design target is to have the ability to run three average sized loads on Medium heat continually given a one hour charging time. Vapor quality will be better than current tech with uniform roasting being the measure.

In a nut shell, the SEED will be a device similar to the Milaana fixing the issues of 1. loose broken glass, 2. regulated power 3. More even roasting of the load 4. a POD system 5. Smaller form factor 6. Integrated vapor conditioning 7. Improvement in the look and feel to be on par with best in class devices now commanding > $200 price point.

Please comment any thoughts you may have here and review the desired outcomes thread to better understand the design drivers. Thanks in advance for your help in making our next product something that is seen as a superior product in this competitive market space.

http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/desired-outcomes.37035/#post-1363113

Why a one year warranty, and a 3-5 year life expectancy? I mean if you actually believe the numbers you quoted, a longer warranty seems reasonable. Apples and oranges but healthy rips on a cheaper vape (fury 2) has a one year plus a lifetime half price warranty. It makes one question your numbers.

 

[RastaBuddhaTao]

Why a one year warranty, and a 3-5 year life expectancy? I mean if you actually believe the numbers you quoted, a longer warranty seems reasonable. Apples and oranges but healthy rips on a cheaper vape (fury 2) has a one year plus a lifetime half price warranty. It makes one question your numbers.

It depends on your how your warranty numbers stack-up. If you have a very inexpensive vaporizer that cause folks to question if it will last then you might employ a marketing aproach that make people warm and fuzzy to get the sale today if your customers doubt that you can make it past the first year so a 1/2 off post a year is your marketing stick. Most folks see normal wear and tear on a device after a year or two and buy a new one. Some read the word warranty and think they can drop it and get a new one which adds to warranty service cost. With that said, a discount for a period of time of a prorated warranty might be a good way to go. Thanks for the input as warranty is often an after thought.

Here is my high level construction thoughts... Please let me know what you all think.

Most of the vaporizers that are of good quality either use metal as the frame and add ergonomic panels or they use a plastic skeleton and wrap it in something sexy. Now armed with the gift of tooling RBT can now design past standard parts. One big black high end vape has rounded edges to encourage that you don't stand it upright as it has a chance to be knocked over... but then you cant stand it up to fill the load chamber. Is the ideal construction one that lays down and can be filled like the FF? I appreciate this about the FF and the integrated cooling that they have is really slick. My thought is to have the same design but put the load chamber, button and LED on one side, the cooling on the other? My go to is an aluminum sub frame with the edges exposed. This will make for a rigid construction for surviving drops as it is most likey to hit and edge and be "point loaded" as if you drop it on the face the load is distributed over a larger surface area. Then on the load chamber side make wood panel insert (non removable) that is classy and on the other side have the vapor cooling ... probably in SS and possibly anodized aluminum. On top end have the mouthpiece that protrudes... but not too much. I think this is something that comes to mind between the PAX 1 and 2. The idea is a "no plastic" exterior. This might require some internal frame work be plastic... but the idea is a high end polished look and sexy from on the outside.

The inlet air would enter through aluminum frame or wood panel. Ideally it would be screened to prevent lint from entering but would most likely deploy a series of small holes. Some might me disappointed with the flow resistance as this will be slightly less flow than the current RBT tech. The idea is to have a 15-20 second draw as minimizes the flow variation and the slower speed means more even roasting. Ideally it would have a variable orifice but given that aim of this is for it to be easy to use with a small learning curve, the range of variation would be minimal if any.

The heater will be an adaptation of one of the 2015 provisional patent designs (see RBT www) that should make better vapor quality as it is of a square profile and it will be housed in a ceramic housing. The load chamber will be of the same ceramic and more than likely have a "POD" which will have a top that is removed before insertion. Any mass between the load and the heater is sure to rob heat so ideally there isn't a lid. If not, it is important for the herb to stay in place and not get stuck in screens etc. that are hard to clean. Ideally there would be a large and a small pod but this might prove difficult if a spacer of some sort isn't used.

With these thoughts in mind I am back to sketching out the high level architecture of the design to see what major elements go were in the packaging as well as general size.

Please comment on any thing that need to be added or changed. aka if you think there is value in having a constant battery charge indicator rather than just a blinking light when the battery is low ... there are no wrong answers.

Thoughts are the button will be metal, like SS, Ni, or Brass and the mouthpiece would be metal or ceramic. USB would be on the end. ideally battery will be replaceable with a few screws and a plug but might end up fully integrated if the unit under average use seems like it will last 3 years.

...and this belongs in the SEED thread so sorry for cross pollinating lol.

 

[Mangu]

The SEED sounds like it’ll turn into Jack’s Big Bean stalk and take us to heaven!

My only thought at the moment....you mentioned some plastic material at the interior. One thing that will make the SEED stand out above the rest could be a thourough approach to using zero plastic....I mean, shoot maybe the button can be made from durable high-tolerance plastic...but man would it be something special to bring forth that one portable that actually eliminates the one material that should not be anywhere near heat, but for whatever reason ends up in/on/fused into every single vaporizer.

I don’t care much for what the thing looks like on the outside, especially if it’s designed to be durable. Just want to enjoy full, good quality vapor out of my pocket that doesn’t come from the same stuff ziplock bags are made from.

Keep up the awesome work Ryan! Gonna strap myself in for this ride.

 

[Shit Snacks]

I would actually look to the Indica for battery LED operation, it would blink one of three colors for your battery level when you turn it on. Then it would also have 5 different colors for the temperature settings, which were a pretty nice range.

I would love a metal mouthpiece with easy to clean screens (like Thermovape T1 holes, easy to poke through, maybe with an on-board stir tool?) but would just need to ensure that it doesn't get too hot on the lips like there and GH. Seems the cooling path would do a lot for this, but still it can really build up in the mouthpiece. Oh a little cap for the mouthpiece would be nice as well so lint doesn't stick inside there either!

 

[Easywider]

I would actually look to the Indica for battery LED operation, it would blink one of three colors for your battery level when you turn it on. Then it would also have 5 different colors for the temperature settings, which were a pretty nice range.

Haze did this with the square a small led ring around the fire button. 3 colonies for charge indicating and 5 for temp. The idea is simple and minimalistic. I’m also a fan of no lights and just having some haptic feedback like a firewood.

maybe with an on-board stir tool?

^^ This so much, I need this for every portable vape I own. Like the toothpick on a Swiss army knife

Edit: Can't wait for the Harvest!

 

[RastaBuddhaTao]

@Mangu I totally agree. I used to run a plastic mold flow analysis company that would check the validity of plastic parts prior to building the expensive tools. Prior to, I designed and managed the fabrication of injection molds... and now I don't care for plastic lol. Plastic parts, once the mold is build, are very inexpensive to make and you can make fancy shapes and the color is integrated. It was one of the prime enablers of the cheap plastic shit that floods the worlds and has enabled things to no longer be seen as a quality item to care for but rather now things are fashion and now we replace our toaster and coffee maker to match the new color we painted our kitchen and more things fill the land fill.

However, plastic is not strong. It is attacked by UV and breaks down over time. It is viscoelastic and continues to deform under a load unlike metals. There are engineering plastics that have better qualities ... but it is still plastic. When I was designing fuel cell cells they are very sensitive to any contaminants and much testing was done to see what plastics held up best in the hot, wet environment and materials like Ultem are actually pretty impressive as far as plastics go.

So, I learned that plastics are good for things that are not under constant load or where very little force is applied to them. In sketching the major parts and how to lay them out there are only a few places where plastic might come into play... like if a battery was to be removable, a plastic frame to hold the battery contacts (plastic is also an insulator) ... but the goal will be to use zero plastic. I believe that if I use a cast aluminum "skeleton" I can use it to eliminate the need for any plastic... Plastic is great when used in the right place. But, for instance, RBT now has a provisional patent on ceramic and mica insulator for the positive terminal on the 510 fitting in the splinter products. Standard e-cigs use a plastic insulator and with an ecig having a 3 second on time and a wet wick dissipating most of the energy is is acceptable... but when it is a convection vaporizer with no wet wick, high temperatures and long draws... plastic is no longer a good choice. The trick with any materials is to design within its limits. Much of the bad rap that plastics gets in this industry is cheap materials used beyond it's limits. Folks like @KeroZen trained me in the early days that purity is paramount and still are burned in my brain today.

I appreciate the less expensive entry level vaporizers as they enable a lower price point to get people to Fuck Combustion but the aim of this project is to use high-end materials to deliver the desired function with less "bells and whistles" to keep the cost down and thereby ending with an affordable price point. The idea is to bring high end artisan vaporizers to the mass market at 20% less than the big box vapes.

@shitsnacks yeh that is right where it;s at.. Not a button, and a LED but a button that has the LED response built in. The design goal here is perfect ABV... a stir tool means failure... lol. That said I can see it's value and believe that stirring mid load is not just to even out ABV but to do a fine grind for the finish... maybe a mortorized stir agur Yeh, the mouthpiece's function will be to get the vapor from the vapor cooler to the user so a o-ring sealed drip tip type could have people picking there own style? A inner screen could serve as a lint trap or getting fancy a self closing one like a dish soap container... lol but please tell me your desired outcomes (separate thread) tell me what you are trying to do and what makes for a successful exeperience... for instance your Desired Outcome is no foreign matter entering the vaporizer flow path such that it will not be inhaled. Your other is that the load chamber and any downstream parts need to be easily cleaned and employ simple attachment points (no tools) if required.

Man, that Square was a cool little vape. Sad to see Haze turn the lights out and a light under my ass for sure ... lol. Turns out that after an afternoon of sketching I am now leaning toward the classic ecig control on this now as it is a quicker path to control... but the FW would be custom.... and given the design currently sketched out. I did learn from checking out the heater as well in the video. Why do you think this vape tanked folks? I think the size which was driven by the 4 bowl system might have been a bad trade-off.... small onboard stir stick with spares in the box... good trade-off lol...

Man this is the joy of my life... designing and engineering... but the weekend of playtime and rush of visiting green lane that set me off is nearing a close for this week.... back to sights on getting a bunch of the US stuff built for 420 for you all.

Keep the desired outcomes flowing and frank honest feedback is welcomed to help the SEED grow.

 

[TNT_error]

I'm stoked for this one! A loading chamber, convection, USB c charging, and is from rbt? Fucking sold. Don't know if I saw it, but would this be an on demand or session vape? I'm cool with stirring either way.

Are you thinking more of a box mod+rda design or a tube? I'd love if it could shred some water too so wpa or a built in one?

 

[Ramahs]

This definitely has my attention.

 

[BestBuds]

I'm so stoked for this!

 

[nasdri253]

Ryan i would buy closed box as long it is an rbt product, no doubts.

 

[Obsessed 2]

Just a thought that is rattling in my brain, but can ceramic be reinforced in the same way rebar reinforces concrete? With rebar two things are addressed, torsion and load (i think). If you were to somehow lace the interior with stainless or other metal wire, you could theoretically strengthrn the ceramic and minimize breakage but also more effectively distribute the applied heat? In theory it should cut down the amount of time required to reach optimal temp in addition to distributing the heat more evenly. More metal wire further away from the heater? Could address unforeseen issues down the pipeline.

 

[Monk Debate]

This ticks a lot of boxes for me. I’ve always wanted an RBT vape and the more I read of this the more I feel like this would be the one that best suits my needs.

 

[oddjobold]

I am behind you all the way. When you launch your seed all the way to the UK, ill take one off you.

 

[eideal852]

@RastaBuddhaTao re: onboard stir stick, anywhere on the Mi2 wood (or for the three) that could safely drill out a stir stick slot?

 

[RastaBuddhaTao]

@pakalolo will you please change the name of this thread to "RBT Sprout"

Thanks for all the great feedback... keep it coming!

The Sprout will be:
Integrated 18650 high drain high capacity
USB C charging
ceramic heater oven with SS heater
Vapor Cooling (on-board or external?)

The work now is in the control... Single button with LED? Haptive feedback?
5 clicks on (on-demand) ... 1 click low, 2 click med, 3 clicks high, 4 clicks session mode ???
flashing LED low battery?

What is the best control? What is most intuitive? what is simple, sleek, stylish in user interface control?

 

[invertedisdead]

Single button with LED? Haptive feedback?

I would say yes. That is how the Focus V Carta and Puffco Peak both work, extremely simple to use.

 

[muunch]

Vapor Cooling (on-board or external?)

I would personally prefer on-board. Still able to be accessed for cleaning, but having a non-protruding part of the unit assist in cooling, making it essentially integrated cooling would be badass.

The work now is in the control... Single button with LED? Haptive feedback?

I would say yes. That is how the Focus V Carta and Puffco Peak both work, extremely simple to use.

Yes, I agree. I wasn't sure about single-button design, but it's very nice if there is not a ton of settings to click through.

I would personally prefer either no haptic feedback, or the option to disable it. It can be helpful, but for situations where stealth is needed, haptic feedback can ruin things.

 

[Obsessed 2]

I like haptic feedback a lot. But i feel like everything i have with HF can wake me up from a deep slumber. They're way too aggressive, which makes me wonder about the amount of energy that little motor just sucked up.

Remember when phones were rather new and the vibration would scare the crap out of you as the phone danced on the table top? Now mentally compare that to Apple's Taptic Engine. Two entirely different approaches. Apple's haptic feelback is gentle, soft, almost pleasant. Android is like a boxer engine on disintegrating engine mounts.

I highly doubt haptic feedback would be detrimental to sales of an otherwise attractive and functional vape; however, I wonder if the benefit outweighs its potential battery load.

 

[muunch]

Now mentally compare that to Apple's Taptic Engine. Two entirely different approaches. Apple's haptic feelback is gentle, soft, almost pleasant. Android is like a boxer engine on disintegrating engine mounts.

Sorry to be pedantic but vibration motors vary from phone manufacturer to manufacturer. There are some Android devices that allow you to tweak the strength of the motor, even!