RBT shipping thread

Frank Reynolds

Frank Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Tommy10 said:
Mislead to me infers being diceved intentionally. Understandable delay is just part of bringing new technology to the market... With one man, hand crafted who works a full time job.
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Disclaimer:
I'm NOT complaining, as I will wait as long as I have to for the Zion because I think it will be the best vaporizer released so far.

BUT I do see where the deception comes in. We were lead to believe there would be no more bugs or testing because supposedly that was already done and they were ready to be mass produced with no problems. Come the month we are supposed to receive them and we hear that they've run into major production issues, something most people would assume was worked out well before the month they were supposed to ship.


Again I'm not complaining and I don't want a refund, just stating facts.
 
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Tommy10

Well-Known Member
Frank Reynolds said:
Disclaimer:
I'm NOT complaining, as I will wait as long as I have to for the Zion because I think it will be the best vaporizer released so far.

BUT I do see where the deception comes in. We were lead to believe there would be no more bugs or testing because supposedly that was already done and they were ready to be mass produced with no problems. Come the month we are supposed to receive them and we hear that they've run into major production issues, something most people would assume was worked out well before the month they were supposed to ship.


Again I'm not complaining and I don't want a refund, just stating facts.
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Yes, I too thought after initial beta testing that production would be ready to roll out and the things would fly off the shelf, seems rasta has discovered a bug that he desires to fix before sending units out. Little issues that nobody could predict.
 
pakalolo

pakalolo

Toolbag v1.1 (candidate)
Staff member
Frank Reynolds said:
Disclaimer:
I'm NOT complaining, as I will wait as long as I have to for the Zion because I think it will be the best vaporizer released so far.

BUT I do see where the deception comes in. We were lead to believe there would be no more bugs or testing because supposedly that was already done and they were ready to be mass produced with no problems. Come the month we are supposed to receive them and we hear that they've run into major production issues, something most people would assume was worked out well before the month they were supposed to ship.


Again I'm not complaining and I don't want a refund, just stating facts.
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No one was deceived or misled. Everyone involved in the development, including the whole beta team, thought that the Zion was thoroughly tested and that there were no bugs to be found. Then @RastaBuddhaTao discovered a problem at the last minute. How you turn that into deception is beyond me. Quite the opposite, delaying the launch is the epitome of being honest with the customers. I would hate to see the reaction if the Zion had shipped anyway, or even if the bug was discovered in the field—or would you have been fine with that? Rhetorical question, we don't need more of this sort of discussion.

Accusations of deception are not only plain wrong, given the transparent process we've had here they're downright mean-spirited.
 
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Tommy10

Well-Known Member
Lucky we have the shipping thread to discuss such things, and I'm certainly not immune to feeling deceived but I think that is many many months away! October 2015 shipping date... It's the start of November.
 
Bongologist

Bongologist

JoJo Woodworks
Accessory Maker
It seems fairly obvious that RBT is not lying to us or willfully deceiving us in any way. But deception does not require will, intent, or gain. A 'start shipping' date was made, and that deadline was not met, which is deceiving. If Frank went to the RBT web site, purchased the preorder Zion, saw "starting to ship in October" (and never looked at FC or any other web site, which is certainly not a prerequisite to purchase the Zion) he certainly has a right to feel deceived. I may (or may not) disagree with his reasoning, but I can certainly acknowledge that he has a legitimate complaint. It might be inadvertent and non-malicious in its intent but missing the shipping date is still misleading which is the very definition of deception. @pakalolo i agree that RBT is doing the MOST honest thing by delaying the Zion and being transparent with the customer base, but I vehemently disagree that feeling deceived in this case is mean spirited or that no deception even exists. That is patently false. I have no doubt that RBT tried to meet his own goals, but the goals weren't met which is deceiving to the customer who is left wondering what is going on. If no date was posted for any release there wouldn't be any issue, but there was. Whatever happens after that (which RBT has handled pretty damn well) is incidental and doesn't change the initial problem, which is indeed misleading to customers.
 
pakalolo

pakalolo

Toolbag v1.1 (candidate)
Staff member
Bongologist said:
It seems fairly obvious that RBT is not lying to us or willfully deceiving us in any way. But deception does not require will, intent, or gain. A 'start shipping' date was made, and that deadline was not met, which is deceiving. If Frank went to the RBT web site, purchased the preorder Zion, saw "starting to ship in October" (and never looked at FC or any other web site, which is certainly not a prerequisite to purchase the Zion) he certainly has a right to feel deceived. I may (or may not) disagree with his reasoning, but I can certainly acknowledge that he has a legitimate complaint. It might be inadvertent and non-malicious in its intent but missing the shipping date is still misleading which is the very definition of deception. @pakalolo i agree that RBT is doing the MOST honest thing by delaying the Zion and being transparent with the customer base, but I vehemently disagree that feeling deceived in this case is mean spirited or that no deception even exists. That is patently false. I have no doubt that RBT tried to meet his own goals, but the goals weren't met which is deceiving to the customer who is left wondering what is going on. If no date was posted for any release there wouldn't be any issue, but there was. Whatever happens after that (which RBT has handled pretty damn well) is incidental and doesn't change the initial problem, which is indeed misleading to customers.
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You are mistaken. Deception is defined thusly:

1. the act or practice of deceiving; concealment or distortion of the truth for the purpose of misleading; duplicity; fraud; cheating:
Once she exposed their deceit, no one ever trusted them again.
2. an act or device intended to deceive; trick; stratagem.
3. the quality of being deceitful; duplicity; falseness:
a man full of deceit.
​
In other words, deceit implies intent. Thanks for your opinion, but as I already said, we don't need more of this discussion.
 
Bongologist

Bongologist

JoJo Woodworks
Accessory Maker
Deceive
Verb
(of a person) cause (someone) to believe something that is not true, typically in order to gain some personal advantage.

"Typically" being the key here. If I truly believe Jimi Hendrix was the guitarist for the grateful dead, I tell you, and you believe me, I deceived you, even unknowingly, its still a deception.


I thought the shipping thread was made exactly so we could discuss these things outside of the Zion thread. In no way am I railing on a company, a person, or a product, and in fact was only pointing out that both you and frank could be correct in your views without someone being wrong. I also made sure to point out that RBT is handling this incredibly well and very honestly. Where am I running afoul of the rules here? It's certainly not my intent.
 
pakalolo

pakalolo

Toolbag v1.1 (candidate)
Staff member
Bongologist said:
Deceive
Verb
(of a person) cause (someone) to believe something that is not true, typically in order to gain some personal advantage.

"Typically" being the key here. If I truly believe Jimi Hendrix was the guitarist for the grateful dead, I tell you, and you believe me, I deceived you, even unknowingly, its still a deception.


I thought the shipping thread was made exactly so we could discuss these things outside of the Zion thread. In no way am I railing on a company, a person, or a product, and in fact was only pointing out that both you and frank could be correct in your views without someone being wrong. I also made sure to point out that RBT is handling this incredibly well and very honestly. Where am I running afoul of the rules here? It's certainly not my intent.
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"Typically" means that if I say someone is deceptive, the assumption people make is that it's done with intent to gain some personal advantage. Your interpretation is unusual and has to be explained. It's not what people think when they see or hear the word.

I did not say you were breaking any rules. I said we don't need to continue this discussion.
 
fyx

fyx

Well-Known Member
Curious, since @RBT said that Pak is shipped and @Shit Snacks is next, are we at the step of getting the Beta testers their production units so they can "give the final ok" before moving onto full production? Just curious how far back your original timeline has been pushed because of this vapor quality "issue". Like can we hope for non-beta orders to be shipped this month? Or we talking way longer?
 
delloy

delloy

Well-Known Member
A system was announced a few weeks back if I recall correctly where everyone that ordered would soon receive an email with a serial number. That number would also signify your place in line.
 
skyvaper

skyvaper

Well-Known Member
That sounds great @delloy but Im suggesting completely eliminating dates of any kind from RBT. The only date received is the one you get generated from tracking once the unit ships. It seems from the threads Ive read that no matter how you spell estimate people see the word promise.
 
pakalolo

pakalolo

Toolbag v1.1 (candidate)
Staff member
skyvaper said:
That sounds great @delloy but Im suggesting completely eliminating dates of any kind from RBT. The only date received is the one you get generated from tracking once the unit ships. It seems from the threads Ive read that no matter how you spell estimate people see the word promise.
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I like this idea a lot and wish others would adopt it as well. I don't see why it would be difficult at all. In fact, estimating a shipping date is definitely harder—look at how difficult it's been for many manufacturers. I don't decide how @RastaBuddhaTao conducts his business, but I recommend that he adopt this scheme.
 
Bravesst

Bravesst

Full Steam Ahead
Manufacturer
I know we gotta have patience, does anyone have a ballpark, 2016, 2017??? or are we another GH situation of biting off more than you can chew?

DECEPTION can be INTENTIONAL or DELUSIONAL, even though the latter is not malicious, it's still DECEPTIVE (NOT TRUE). Some people have the capacity to lie to themselves, and ths is probably the most dangerous type of lie, and one that wreaks the most havoc, because the liar doesn't know he's lying. To him it's all truth, but I made my purchase early September ONLY BECAUSE THE SITE SAID OCTOBER, and as of now (November 23) I don't have a Zion and there seems to be no indication of me actually getting one any time soon. There doesn't even seem to be any accountability for that, just more of a "how dare you?" reaction for even asking. Well friends, I dare to ask. WHEN?

I do not want a refund, just like @Frank Reynolds, simply stating facts and will wait in line like everyone else, but I feel deceived - just sayin'.
 
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Bravesst,
pakalolo

pakalolo

Toolbag v1.1 (candidate)
Staff member
Bravesst said:
DECEPTION can be INTENTIONAL or DELUSIONAL, even though the latter is not malicious, it's still DECEPTIVE (NOT TRUE). Some people have the capacity to lie to themselves, and ths is probably the most dangerous type of lie, and one that wreaks the most havoc, because the liar doesn't know he's lying. To him it's all truth, but I made my purchase early September ONLY BECAUSE THE SITE SAID OCTOBER, and as of now (November 23) I don't have a Zion and there seems to be no indication of me actually getting one any time soon. There doesn't even seem to be any accountability for that, just more of a "how dare you?" reaction for even asking. Well friends, I dare to ask. WHEN?

I do not want a refund, just like @Frank Reynolds, simply stating facts and will wait in line like everyone else, but I feel deceived - just sayin'.
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What part of "we don't need to continue this discussion" confused you? If you want to twist semantics so that you win, find somewhere else and not this thread. This is the last warning that comes without a point, and this applies to everyone.

The policy to provide refunds to those who are not content to wait was announced to avoid having malcontents make repetitive posts complaining and asking when—just like you did. If you feel unhappy that you paid and haven't got your Zion, then get your money back and re-order when they are ready for immediate delivery. Expressing your unhappiness once or even twice is tolerable, but after that either :shit: or get off the pot.
 
pakalolo

pakalolo

Toolbag v1.1 (candidate)
Staff member
No one has been told what their opinion or interpretation is. I told people to stop trying to prove that RBT has been unintentionally deceptive. I am of the opinion that there is no such thing, others want to prove that there is. What is the point in that? Assume they're right, does it change anything as far as the Zion is concerned? No, because if it's unintentional then RBT was not being dishonest, so again, the argument is pointless.

Anyone is free to discuss the shipping status of the Zion provided that they observe our rules against company bashing. Anyone upset by the delay is welcome to express frustration as long as it's done with respect. If you are so upset you need to post repeatedly about it, you'd be breaking our rules and would be best off asking for a refund.
 
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Tommy10

Well-Known Member
Okay free reign on shipping discussion. Anyone know any more:)? I take it that heater issues are still being addressed? @pakalolo you are testing an improved heater? Will you be having a go of most of the major modifications up until production?
 
Tommy10,
pakalolo

pakalolo

Toolbag v1.1 (candidate)
Staff member
Tommy10 said:
Okay free reign on shipping discussion. Anyone know any more:)? I take it that heater issues are still being addressed? @pakalolo you are testing an improved heater? Will you be having a go of most of the major modifications up until production?
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I don't have any shipping information to offer. I an testing a heater that is improved over Jessica and should be close to the production heater, but I don't like commenting too much on it because it's unique and I don't know what the differences will be.

All of the other modifications are implemented in Pauahi. The Zion is a really simple design so we're talking about minimal things like how deep the button is recessed and how nicely the wood is finished. Overall, I am really pleased with Pauahi and I don't think Zion owners will be disappointed.
 
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Tommy10

Well-Known Member
pakalolo said:
I don't have any shipping information to offer. I an testing a heater that is improved over Jessica and should be close to the production heater, but I don't like commenting too much on it because it's unique and I don't know what the differences will be.

All of the other modifications are implemented in Pauahi. The Zion is a really simple design so we're talking about minimal things like how deep the button is recessed and how nice the wood is finished. Overall, I am really pleased with Pauahi and I don't think Zion owners will be disappointed.
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Wooooo! Also given the simple design I'm guessing once the heater is perfected (hence why it's obviously worth the so far < 1 month wait) it will be pretty easily put to work in the other configurations. I want the zion for longer battery life and regulated heat! But that single bat thing has to be getting close to the smallest electric vaporiser... That will milk a bong anyways. Until battery technology dramatically increases.
 
Tommy10,
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