Tek QWET - dry ice, low temperature?

[Deleted Member 1643]

Is it worthwhile to extract on dry ice? Is temperature more important than time?

Impressed with @IchiBanCrafter's results. Thinking that it may be especially helpful with freeze-dried fresh flowers. (Freeze-dried after discovering one bud with Botrytis rather than risk spread with curing.)

A standard three-minute wash in an upright freezer yields good results, but second wash yields very dark sap with a strong, vegetal flavor, unfit for dabbing.

Also considering using a chest freezer as dry ice is expensive. From lab days, a dry ice/ethanol bath is about -70C. The chest freezer is about -26C. The upright is about -8C.

 

[herbivore21]

Is it worthwhile to extract on dry ice? Is temperature more important than time?

Impressed with @IchiBanCrafter's results. Thinking that it may be especially helpful with freeze-dried fresh flowers. (Freeze-dried after discovering one bud with Botrytis rather than risk spread with curing.)

A standard three-minute wash in an upright freezer yields good results, but second wash yields very dark sap with a strong, vegetal flavor, unfit for dabbing.

Also considering using a chest freezer as dry ice is expensive. From lab days, a dry ice/ethanol bath is about -70C. The chest freezer is about -26C. The upright is about -8C.

Temperature is as important as time IMO. Also I've never had a 3 min wash with ethanol give me anything that I wanna dab, no matter how cold. My first washes were always drastically shorter than this with ethanol (30-40 seconds). Keeping it colder with a dry ice and ethanol (actually acetone is typically used in this application mixed with the dry ice rather than ethanol in my lab experience) will certainly give you better results IME especially with these incredibly long washes you are doing. A faster application of more cold can also minimize the formation of large ice crystals vs using a typical freezer. This will aid in preventing undesirables from getting into your wash.

Also that explanation about freeze drying to prevent the spread of botrytis is a good piece of advice man. If you find even the smallest amount of botrytis, you can bet your ass that'll spread all over the unaffected material in time if you don't put it on ice. I hope that all of the nugs were broken up calyx by calyx after the botrytis was discovered, so that the inside of the calyxes can be thoroughly inspected for more mold.

Remember, if you can see botrytis on the outside of a nug, the inside is likely to already be teaming with mold/rot. Botrytis seems to become visible first on the stems inside the largest, densest colas. It will eventually cause rot and mold to consume the cola from the inside out if just left and dried/cured as normal. All material that has any visible mold or noteworthy browning (rot) whatsoever should be disposed of. All processing surfaces/equipment used with flowers that were in the same container as mold affected flower must be sterilized after use. You do not want to get spores into subsequent runs!

I do wonder why you aren't using rosin yet man? I know I must sound like a broken record, but IME you're not gonna get a QWET that tastes as good as what you'll get from rosining the same flower!

BTW, any pics of @IchiBanCrafter extracts? Or your own for that matter? It's been a while since I did QWET and it'd be nice to see some QWET shatter pics for the nostalgia

 

[Deleted Member 1643]

Thanks! Three minutes seems to be the most common wash time for QWET with cured flowers. May need to be less with freeze-dried.

Hopefully, @IchiBanCrafter will drop by. This is the blog post comparing freezer and dry ice. Reports generally better quality and yield with dry ice, but saw little difference in freezer (5, 10, and 15 minutes) or dry ice (15, 30, 45 minutes).

Made half-hearted, unsuccessful attempt at pressing rosin. Seems like mistakes and expense are inevitable. QWET's working fine. Also, want to be able to use concentrate with e-cig atomizers (not e-juice, loaded directly on wickless, stainless steel coils. Rosin, apparently, doesn't work as well.

Freaked out with Botrytis, first time. A single bud on one plant appeared to mature more rapidly. Soon, a sugar leaf fell. Clipped the bud, and the inside was green paste. Harvested both plants immediately. Trimmed carefully, separated flowers, checked with microscope. Took 24 straight hours for 250 g (after freeze-drying). That was the only bud clearly affected, but sacrificed a few that didn't look quite right. Very lucky.

 

[herbivore21]

Thanks! Three minutes seems to be the most common wash time for QWET with cured flowers. May need to be less with freeze-dried.

What I said above is for cured flowers. I have mostly preferred varieties which are unequivocally more enjoyable for me when cured because these ones have happened to work for my medical needs

I did one or two live resin runs but have never preferred it with my material. It was comparatively very harsh on the throat and lungs to dab, tasted too grassy/planty and provides a racy, uncomfortable sensation vs cured resin for my needs.

Hopefully, @IchiBanCrafter will drop by. This is the blog post comparing freezer and dry ice. Reports generally better quality and yield with dry ice, but saw little difference in freezer (5, 10, and 15 minutes) or dry ice (15, 30, 45 minutes).

These are not apples to apples comparisons, what I mean to say is the lengths of washes are different for different processes. I do wonder why this choice of different lengths of wash were used for this comparison? Or was it that the comparison was done after the washes, and that when the washes were first performed @IchiBanCrafter was not necessarily planning to write up this comparison?

Either way, I'm sure @IchiBanCrafter is best to help us with answers to these questions

These notes are really not comparable to any extract that I have ever done for a few reasons:
1. I have never used wash times of anything approaching either of any of those timeframes and IME, washes of that length just don't produce anything that I wanna dab. I am surely what could be considered a 'dab snob' though, and just because those long washes don't produce what I want to dab does not mean that these longer washes wouldn't process perfectly safe, if not connoisseur quality medicine. Those extracts look quite good for the length of wash just the same!

2. I've never extracted from flowers that were not sensimilla save for one or two occasions of intersex plants (which were some of the most resinous I've ever seen!) which contained no more than 4-5 non-viable immature seeds whereas @IchiBanCrafter appears to have needed to remove seeds in his process.

The dry ice results definitely look better to me though man, and they're longer which seems to align with what I would expect as outlined above.

Made half-hearted, unsuccessful attempt at pressing rosin. Seems like mistakes and expense are inevitable.

Let me guess: Straightener with hand pressure or something similar? IME, a lot of people think rosin is much harder than it really is because of past failed attempts with inadequate equipment.

If you have a purpose built pressing setup, mistakes are not inevitable (rosin is much easier to do well than QWET, and you know I have the experience to make this comparison ). The cost of a good press setup should be similar to a years' worth of solvent if you are not recovering and using your solvents again all year (IMO, recovery and reuse should be limited to latter washes in a given run, and should not be continued indefinitely with the same solvent). The quality improvement in the final meds, priceless.

Also, want to be able to use concentrate with e-cig atomizers (not e-juice, loaded directly on wickless, stainless steel coils. Rosin, apparently, doesn't work as well.

IME all of my coil based atty's taste much better with rosin from my flowers than with QWET from the same flower, and I never got any buildup of particulates under my coils (but then I'm sure that YMMV depending on how you process - ie: depending on your use of screens).

Freaked out with Botrytis, first time. A single bud on one plant appeared to mature more rapidly. Soon, a sugar leaf fell. Clipped the bud, and the inside was green paste. Harvested both plants immediately. Trimmed carefully, separated flowers, checked with microscope. Took 24 straight hours for 250 g (after freeze-drying). That was the only bud clearly affected, but sacrificed a few that didn't look quite right. Very lucky.

Damn bro! That must have been some scare! You were very fortunate to have noticed it when you did, it doesn't take long at all for that shit to ruin an entire harvest! Glad to hear that you got out almost unscathed!

 

[Deleted Member 1643]

I did one or two live resin runs but have never preferred it with my material. It was comparatively very harsh on the throat and lungs to dab, tasted too grassy/planty and provides a racy, uncomfortable sensation vs cured resin for my needs.

Hoping to separate grassy/planty flavors from delicious terpy flavors. Three minutes in upright freezer for first and second washes does so, but second wash also has desirable sedative effects. Lower temps should facilitate lengthening first wash as much as possible.

I do wonder why this choice of different lengths of wash were used for this comparison? Or was it that the comparison was done after the washes, and that when the washes were first performed @IchiBanCrafter was not necessarily planning to write up this comparison?

Agreed. Maybe @IchiBanCrafter tried to account for past experience. Instead, planning consecutive, three-minute washes at lower temperatures until chlorophyll becomes visible in wash. Starting with 60 g so that significant concentrate can be recovered in successive washes. How does that sound?

Let me guess: Straightener with hand pressure or something similar? IME, a lot of people think rosin is much harder than it really is because of past failed attempts with inadequate equipment.

Indeed. May try again with cured flowers.

Glad to hear that you got out almost unscathed!

Thanks. This is what was at stake, biggest and best plants so far:

Had hoped to harvest a week later and cure traditionally. Expect curing to mute grassy/planty flavors permitting longer washes/rosin pressing. Next time, hopefully.

 

[IchiBanCrafter]

Temperature is as important as time IMO. Also I've never had a 3 min wash with ethanol give me anything that I wanna dab, no matter how cold. My first washes were always drastically shorter than this with ethanol (30-40 seconds). Keeping it colder with a dry ice and ethanol (actually acetone is typically used in this application mixed with the dry ice rather than ethanol in my lab experience) will certainly give you better results IME especially with these incredibly long washes you are doing. A faster application of more cold can also minimize the formation of large ice crystals vs using a typical freezer. This will aid in preventing undesirables from getting into your wash.

Also that explanation about freeze drying to prevent the spread of botrytis is a good piece of advice man. If you find even the smallest amount of botrytis, you can bet your ass that'll spread all over the unaffected material in time if you don't put it on ice. I hope that all of the nugs were broken up calyx by calyx after the botrytis was discovered, so that the inside of the calyxes can be thoroughly inspected for more mold.

Remember, if you can see botrytis on the outside of a nug, the inside is likely to already be teaming with mold/rot. Botrytis seems to become visible first on the stems inside the largest, densest colas. It will eventually cause rot and mold to consume the cola from the inside out if just left and dried/cured as normal. All material that has any visible mold or noteworthy browning (rot) whatsoever should be disposed of. All processing surfaces/equipment used with flowers that were in the same container as mold affected flower must be sterilized after use. You do not want to get spores into subsequent runs!

I do wonder why you aren't using rosin yet man? I know I must sound like a broken record, but IME you're not gonna get a QWET that tastes as good as what you'll get from rosining the same flower!

BTW, any pics of @IchiBanCrafter extracts? Or your own for that matter? It's been a while since I did QWET and it'd be nice to see some QWET shatter pics for the nostalgia

There are some photo in here of the long washes and the purged results https://extractcrafter.com/2017/06/...action-battle-of-the-wash-dry-ice-vs-freezer/

 

[IchiBanCrafter]

These are not apples to apples comparisons, what I mean to say is the lengths of washes are different for different processes. I do wonder why this choice of different lengths of wash were used for this comparison? Or was it that the comparison was done after the washes, and that when the washes were first performed @IchiBanCrafter was not necessarily planning to write up this comparison?

I chose the lengths of times because I already knew what the results would be for the times that I skipped. Meaning, there was no reason to do a 3-minute as I could easily assume the results. Same with choosing not to do a 10 minute dry ice wash when the 10 minute freezer wash came out perfectly well. To economize on material used I tried not to duplicate things that I figured would shed little light on the boundaries I was looking for and the comparisons between the freezer and dry ice. I hope that makes sense.

These notes are really not comparable to any extract that I have ever done for a few reasons:
1. I have never used wash times of anything approaching either of any of those timeframes and IME, washes of that length just don't produce anything that I wanna dab. I am surely what could be considered a 'dab snob' though, and just because those long washes don't produce what I want to dab does not mean that these longer washes wouldn't process perfectly safe, if not connoisseur quality medicine. Those extracts look quite good for the length of wash just the same!

2. I've never extracted from flowers that were not sensimilla save for one or two occasions of intersex plants (which were some of the most resinous I've ever seen!) which contained no more than 4-5 non-viable immature seeds whereas @IchiBanCrafter appears to have needed to remove seeds in his process.

The dry ice results definitely look better to me though man, and they're longer which seems to align with what I would expect as outlined above.[/QUOTE]

1. They actually came out surprisingly good, all of them. I didn't expect to get to as long as I did, I expected to get tapped out with green much quick with both the freezer and especially with the dry ice. They were all as good of quality as the material allowed. If I had better material at the time it would have been much better. When I got home with the nuns and looked at what I had I almost cried, but it worked

2. I got the stuff from an old school hydro grower that knows what he is doing, but ran out and got it for me from a friend of his. He told me this guy was top notch but with the hermaphrodite crusty crap I go, I can tell you that guy aint got anything. This junk was not resinous at all.

You can defiantly see the difference in the dry ice and freezer and I wish I had facilities to test all of that because it would have been very interesting. The shortest freezer wash was a little more amber than all of the dry ice, and the dry ice didn't seem to have quite as much terp to it.......maybe. I'm not sure which is better, depend on preference I suppose.

I have been messing with rosin presses lately. I'm not convinced it is better than the qwet I'm making. Having said that, my squishing skills have not reached brag worthy levels by any means. I think I have been getting it mostly right, but I'm not a huge fan of the process. I don't dislike it either though. I feel like I am replacing the are of qwet with a factory like job of stuffing a bag, folding paper (after paper after paper), pressing (then pressing then pressing some more), and finally scraping the paper (then scraping and scraping some more). I am having fun with the rosin, but I find qwet extraordinarily simple with a small flare of art.

 

[Deleted Member 1643]

Thanks, @IchiBanCrafter! New images are very helpful. Have you tried a second wash on any of this material?

To economize on material used I tried not to duplicate things that I figured would shed little light on the boundaries I was looking for and the comparisons between the freezer and dry ice.

Limited material clearly prevents optimal experimental design. Now planning to use chest freezer at -26C, as routine use of dry ice would increase expense significantly. What's the temperature inside the freezer you used?

Surprised by dramatic decrease in quality between first and second washes in upright freezer. Seems to suggest that a six minute first wash would produce inferior results, but one long wash may not be equivalent to multiple short washes. Goal is to optimize method for material on hand (freeze-dried rather than cured) for subsequent runs - retain sedative effects observed in second wash while minimizing unpleasant vegetal flavors and waxy consistency.

Now planning four minutes at -26C for first wash (as three minutes at -8C always produced good results) followed immediately by two minutes for second wash. (Previously, collected material and re-dried between washes.) If that's still amber rather than green, then try an extended third wash (ten or fifteen minutes).

 

[IchiBanCrafter]

Thanks, @IchiBanCrafter! New images are very helpful. Have you tried a second wash on any of this material?



Limited material clearly prevents optimal experimental design. Now planning to use chest freezer at -26C, as routine use of dry ice would increase expense significantly. What's the temperature inside the freezer you used?

Surprised by dramatic decrease in quality between first and second washes in upright freezer. Seems to suggest that a six minute first wash would produce inferior results, but one long wash may not be equivalent to multiple short washes. Goal is to optimize method for material on hand (freeze-dried rather than cured) for subsequent runs - retain sedative effects observed in second wash while minimizing unpleasant vegetal flavors and waxy consistency.

Now planning four minutes at -26C for first wash (as three minutes at -8C always produced good results) followed immediately by two minutes for second wash. (Previously, collected material and re-dried between washes.) If that's still amber rather than green, then try an extended third wash (ten or fifteen minutes).

I have tried second wash in almost every way, including drying and refreezing, and have pretty much resided myself to using only for FECO. The efficiency is just too low if you don't accept the green leak in the second wash, at least to my experience so far.

The freezer I use is set at 0F.

I don't know if you are on the user group for the Source on FB (The Source By ExtractCraft User Group) but one of the members posted this morning 20-minute freezer soak, with decarbed trim (low temp vaper guy), 125g starting material and got 14.3g (double his normal yield with 3-5 min wash), and it looks dam good!