Question about Cannabinoid Vaporization at Diff. Temperatures

[omonibo]

Hi everyone, I had a quick question in regard to temperature and the vaporization of cannabinoids. I guess this is a general question.

I understand that different compounds are vaporized at different temperatures with medicinal herb. I saw a graph here the other day stating something like "at temperature X, vaporizing cannabis has these medicinal properties" etc.

Assuming that these medicinal properties are present when vaporizing at that temperature, if we set the temperature higher (still not combustion of course) would those earlier cannabinoids still be released, in addition to the later ones? I understand that vaporizing at a higher temperature produces a heavier buzz, but is it still a way to get all of the cannabinoids without starting at earlier temperatures and progressing higher?

 

[WatTyler]

if we set the temperature higher (still not combustion of course) would those earlier cannabinoids still be released...?

Yes, I believe they would.

 

[VWFringe]

I personally don't change the temp as I vape, and it's set high enough to produce a dark brown if I took it that far. It's a matter of taste and equipment, I think, or habit.

would those earlier cannabinoids still be released

Yes

They would come off first, followed quickly by the higher boiling point ones.

Or, I should say from my experience using just one temperature of hot air, that i notice more flavor and less haze/body high from my first hits, than I do the second or third hits...but the temperature is the same each time. I don't know exactly, but am guessing the stuff at the CBD end of the cannibinoid scale takes higher heat and deeper air flow to gain fullest extraction of it from the plant's fiberous material.

 

[omonibo]

Thanks for the response.


Alright so when one uses a lighter to smoke a bowl, they are approaching the herb with a heat source of a very very high temperature (after checking online apparently a butane lighter burns at 1977 degrees C)

http://www.derose.net/steve/resources/engtables/flametemp.html

I'm guessing that the flame must vaporize some of the THC even before it touches it in the first place (just by getting close). Is this why smoking is not an efficient way to consume THC? I've also heard that the THC is also changed in a way when it combusts but I do not know much else than this.

I've been vaporizing for a while but I ever really had the science down.

 

[max]

Think about it like this. Before the plant material is exposed to 400 degrees, even with a vape aleady preheated and set to that temp, it's exposed to 300, because the herb starts at room temp and heats up incrementally, just like putting a pan of water on a stove burner set to high. So you don't lose any compounds by starting your vaping session at a high temp. What you do lose is noticing the effects of the lower temp compounds, unless you manage to get a hit or two before your bowl has reached the higher temp you've set.

IMO starting a bowl at a low to medium temp, and moving up in temp in several steps (or more steps, with smaller increments, if you prefer), is not a chore, but a method that allows you to get slightly different effects as you go through the bowl. Most importantly (to me at least), it allows you get the most vapor out of a bowl. Vaping at high temp only will cache a bowl in a hurry. I guess some look at that method as 'getting it all, just quicker', but to me it just seems like I'm wasting herb. Plus there are times when I just don't want the effects of high temp vaping.

I'm guessing that the flame must vaporize some of the THC even before it touches it in the first place (just by getting close).

Correct. It's possible that when smoking, you actually get more THC from vapor than from smoke. Just get your bowl lit, and let the heat spread as you draw, and you're producing vapor (vapor obviously releases before combustion)and inhaling it, along with the smoke. Use a torch lighter on your bowl (several hundred degrees hotter), while trying to get it all in one hit, and you're probably incinerating more THC than you're getting into your lungs.

 

[omonibo]

Think about it like this. Before the plant material is exposed to 400 degrees, even with a vape aleady preheated and set to that temp, it's exposed to 300, because the herb starts at room temp and heats up incrementally, just like putting a pan of water on a stove burner set to high. So you don't lose any compounds by starting your vaping session at a high temp. What you do lose is noticing the effects of the lower temp compounds, unless you manage to get a hit or two before your bowl has reached the higher temp you've set.

IMO starting a bowl at a low to medium temp, and moving up in temp in several steps (or more steps, with smaller increments, if you prefer), is not a chore, but a method that allows you to get slightly different effects as you go through the bowl. Most importantly (to me at least), it allows you get the most vapor out of a bowl. Vaping at high temp only will cache a bowl in a hurry. I guess some look at that method as 'getting it all, just quicker', but to me it just seems like I'm wasting herb. Plus there are times when I just don't want the effects of high temp vaping.

I'm guessing that the flame must vaporize some of the THC even before it touches it in the first place (just by getting close).

Correct. It's possible that when smoking, you actually get more THC from vapor than from smoke. Just get your bowl lit, and let the heat spread as you draw, and you're producing vapor (vapor obviously releases before combustion)and inhaling it, along with the smoke. Use a torch lighter on your bowl (several hundred degrees hotter), while trying to get it all in one hit, and you're probably incinerating more THC than you're getting into your lungs.

Hi max

Thanks for that metaphor, it was helpful. However, can I follow up with a quick question on that-

You mentioned that it seems "getting it all quicker" is similar to wasting, but one of my earlier questions was whether vaping at a high temperature still releases the earlier cannabinoids. This was my point of confusion to begin with- Wouldn't you just feel the effects of all the cannabinoids, in addition to the later ones since you're on a high temp?

 

[VWFringe]

Thanks for the response.


Alright so when one uses a lighter to smoke a bowl, they are approaching the herb with a heat source of a very very high temperature (after checking online apparently a butane lighter burns at 1977 degrees C)

http://www.derose.net/steve/resources/engtables/flametemp.html

I'm guessing that the flame must vaporize some of the THC even before it touches it in the first place (just by getting close). Is this why smoking is not an efficient way to consume THC? I've also heard that the THC is also changed in a way when it combusts but I do not know much else than this.

I've been vaporizing for a while but I ever really had the science down.

smoke is different from vapor in that while you see just the smoke, it's actually smoke and actives, somewhat seperately...the smoke particulate size is small enough to carry the actives and drop them off deeper within the alvioli, while when you vape, your actives are mixed in with the hydrocarbons and alkanes and cannibinoids, so it's more a waiting game for the vapor to be absorbed or condense on our wind-pipe.

when you combust some of the THC is burnt up, but enough is just released into the smoke (which is literally hundreds of compounds and soot created as you burn)...again, when you combust, the reason you do not need to ghost hits, and that you readily absorb most of the actives within just a few seconds is due the particulate size of the smoke allowing it to get in between the alvioli and leave the actives like a taxi cab dropping off a fare.

I don't know the exact science of how the vapor is absorbed, but I don't think it's limited to the alvioli, I'd guess if it sticks to my mouth it'll evantually take effect as it's carried into the blood supply for elimination, but I don't exactly find myself savoring the flavor ten minutes later, I only sense the actives taking effect during the first couple of minutes, so i don't know.

 

[WatTyler]

I'm guessing that the flame must vaporize some of the THC even before it touches it in the first place (just by getting close). Is this why smoking is not an efficient way to consume THC? I've also heard that the THC is also changed in a way when it combusts but I do not know much else than this.

This is why smoking is arguably inefficient for THC. Burning essentially destroys the THC, and it's the stuff vaporized at the edge of burning process that does the business. However, the high temps at the edge of the burning also release lots of other cannabinoids that you might not be able to extract a vaporizing temperatures. (plus lots of other nasty substances that are better not breathed IMO)

Wouldn't you just feel the effects of all the cannabinoids, in addition to the later ones since you're on a high temp?

Yes, you would.

 

[VWFringe]

max mentioned that it seems "getting it all quicker" is similar to wasting

sorry to answer for Max,

i just use a small pinch, which compresses to an 1/8" over the screen as i vape, and it lasts 5-6 hits, but if i turn up the heat just a little i get it in three but there's some loss, and not just because it's more dense and doesn't get ghosted, there's some loss...i've read enough here to see others agree, there's some loss if set just a bit too high.

 

[max]

Wouldn't you just feel the effects of all the cannabinoids, in addition to the later ones since you're on a high temp?

You would GET all the effects, but IMO the more subtle effects wouldn't be noticed. If I could give you a tiny tap on the back at the same time and location where I gave you a big slap, you wouldn't notice the tiny tap because the big slap would overwhelm it. If I take a small, quick hit from a fixed temp vape, I can feel the effects of a very slight high, where it just takes the edge off my sober state. I find this state of mind very useful and enjoyable at times. If instead, I take a big hit, or multiple big hits back to back, from a variable temp vape set high, I'll go quickly from a sober state to very fucked up, and any activity I might have comtemplated doing after my low/medium small hit, is probably no longer of any interest to me. Now I'm fine with just staring at whatever's on TV, or watching the cat chase his tail. Nothing wrong with getting wrecked in a hurry, if that's what you're after, but it's not what I want to do all the time. That's the beauty of vaporizing. It lets you tailor your high.

I use a log vape a lot, and get a lot of hits out of that small bowl. I'm often quite satisfied with just the effects of limited temp vapor. I do use an SSV often, and go higher in temp, but there are times when I go days without turning it on. And when I start a bowl in that model, and set the temp pretty high, I do feel sometimes like I'm wasting herb, since it does go fast at high temp. But I'm not saying that starting a bowl at high temp has the same effect as finishing one that's been started low and moved up to high. My advice is to vary your vaping sessions. Doing it the same way all the time gets boring. That's why I kind of feel sorry for those who use nothing but a Volcano. Bags get boring and if that's all your vape can do ......

 

[omonibo]

Wouldn't you just feel the effects of all the cannabinoids, in addition to the later ones since you're on a high temp?

You would GET all the effects, but IMO the more subtle effects wouldn't be noticed. If I could give you a tiny tap on the back at the same time and location where I gave you a big slap, you wouldn't notice the tiny tap because the big slap would overwhelm it. If I take a small, quick hit from a fixed temp vape, I can feel the effects of a very slight high, where it just takes the edge off my sober state. I find this state of mind very useful and enjoyable at times. If instead, I take a big hit, or multiple big hits back to back, from a variable temp vape set high, I'll go quickly from a sober state to very fucked up, and any activity I might have comtemplated doing after my low/medium small hit, is probably no longer of any interest to me. Now I'm fine with just staring at whatever's on TV, or watching the cat chase his tail. Nothing wrong with getting wrecked in a hurry, if that's what you're after, but it's not what I want to do all the time. That's the beauty of vaporizing. It lets you tailor your high.

I use a log vape a lot, and get a lot of hits out of that small bowl. I'm often quite satisfied with just the effects of limited temp vapor. I do use an SSV often, and go higher in temp, but there are times when I go days without turning it on. And when I start a bowl in that model, and set the temp pretty high, I do feel sometimes like I'm wasting herb, since it does go fast at high temp. But I'm not saying that starting a bowl at high temp has the same effect as finishing one that's been started low and moved up to high. My advice is to vary your vaping sessions. Doing it the same way all the time gets boring. That's why I kind of feel sorry for those who use nothing but a Volcano. Bags get boring and if that's all your vape can do ......

Wow that really puts it into perspective, I know exactly what you mean about the high that takes you just out of the sober state.

Thanks to all of the previous responses and maybe we can keep adding to this if people have more information to share.

 

[Sour Deez]

Ive noticed starting at a lower temp and moving the knob up works better for me. The bowl lasts longer, which could be good or bad, but i feel way more medicated.

When I first got my vape I was using it on to high a temp, it was stashed very shortly, and I went back to smoking. Once I decided to start at a lower temp and work my way up, thats when I found out what vaping was all about.

This is just my experience tho.

 

[max]

Wow that really puts it into perspective, I know exactly what you mean about the high that takes you just out of the sober state.

I keep editing my posts and you're quoting me before I get done. I've gone back twice and added my edit to your quotes. Good thing I can edit someone else's post.

Once I decided to start at a lower temp and work my way up, thats when I found out what vaping was all about.

It's mostly my preferred method too. You can take the 3 or 4 items on your dinner plate and mix them all together and eat, and it may make for a nice taste sensation, but it'll a lot harder in some cases to identify the taste of each separate item.

 

[omonibo]

Bags get boring and if that's all your vape can do ......

This is an excellent point, the EQ vape that I currently own does bags well but the fact that it supports a whip system as well is just so awesome!

 

[wilf789]

On a related note, do people find that bowls/stems etc last longer when there's more than one type of bud mixed together?
Last week I noticed my SSV bowl, packed solely with one type of Cheese, lasted a lot less long than they usually do. Seeing as I don't have access to medical marijuana and the like, I normally mix several strains together in order to make each bag last as long as the next. I use my MFLB for solo strains, especially if they're extra tasty ones like Super Lemon Haze.

Perhaps if you have different buds together, assuming they have different levels of each cannabinoid, then you get a longer spectrum of active ingredients to extract?

 

[VWFringe]

some weed just doesn't produce much vapor

i've mixed different strains in my vape to get different effects, but didn't think i was getting more vapor together than separate (ie: one dirty sativa and one sleepy indo)

 

[tdavie]

IMO starting a bowl at a low to medium temp, and moving up in temp in several steps (or more steps, with smaller increments, if you prefer), is not a chore, but a method that allows you to get slightly different effects as you go through the bowl.

Bingo!

And Sir I would add 'not merely slightly different effects but profoundly different ones'. And yup, I'm aware that the temperatures are inexact; I'm using them as a repeatable (for me) marker.

Example. I can get 4-5 hits (no visible vapor, phenomenal taste and amazing anti inflammatory effects) at 140C from Sour Diesel. No high/euphoria or typical Sativa effects. Later on I can hit it seemingly forever (about 0.3g) at 170C. I get pretty high (what I think of as the typical Sativa effects; dragging the dogs on a 10 mile walk, cleaning the whole house, whizzing around trying to do a hundred things at once. Visible vapor. Starts tasting straw like.

Finally, I hit it at 190-205. I tend to get very hungry, very lethargic and more forgetful than normal.

At this point it all goes into the ABV stash jar.

Even if the digital vapes do not reflect an accurate herb temperature, they are important in allowing one to quickly dial into desired effects (of course a hell of a lot of personal experimentation is needed to figure things out, but I'm willing).

Tom

[Edit: Forgot to add that all of my temperature uh posts are made w/r to Extreme .V3]

 

[Purpl3_Haz3]

What a great thread! I have often wondered if when smoking a blunt or joint, you were essentially vaping the material between the cherry and your mouth on the way....something I though about for hours when medicated heavily, but not think to ask about on here. The occasional times that I combust, I will hold the bic above the pipe and try for 5-10 minutes to hit it like a vapor genie, and not let the flame hit the bowl, but I never get vapor, and always end up setting it on fire in the process... :/

Max, I like the way you put this all into perspective throughout your numerous posts! It is very relateable, (i stare at my cat alot when I get too medicated...) I used to vape in the style that you do, and work my way through the temps, but I generally now just turn my vape on in the am at around 185, and it stays that way until the evening, when i go to 220-230...a little more simple IMO, but gets the job done....then I can save my low temp vaped bud, for times when I'm low, and keep my regular abv for edibles...

 

[omonibo]

IMO starting a bowl at a low to medium temp, and moving up in temp in several steps (or more steps, with smaller increments, if you prefer), is not a chore, but a method that allows you to get slightly different effects as you go through the bowl.

Bingo!

And Sir I would add 'not merely slightly different effects but profoundly different ones'. And yup, I'm aware that the temperatures are inexact; I'm using them as a repeatable (for me) marker.

Example. I can get 4-5 hits (no visible vapor, phenomenal taste and amazing anti inflammatory effects) at 140C from Sour Diesel. No high/euphoria or typical Sativa effects. Later on I can hit it seemingly forever (about 0.3g) at 170C. I get pretty high (what I think of as the typical Sativa effects; dragging the dogs on a 10 mile walk, cleaning the whole house, whizzing around trying to do a hundred things at once. Visible vapor. Starts tasting straw like.

Finally, I hit it at 190-205. I tend to get very hungry, very lethargic and more forgetful than normal.

At this point it all goes into the ABV stash jar.

Even if the digital vapes do not reflect an accurate herb temperature, they are important in allowing one to quickly dial into desired effects (of course a hell of a lot of personal experimentation is needed to figure things out, but I'm willing).

Tom

That was a solid example with a solid strain! Nothing quite like that Sour Diesel smell/taste

 

[weedemon]

there are lovely flavors that are released at the lower temperatures.

this is why I choose to start low and enjoy the taste/ flavor then i turn it up once those have diminished.

You will get it all by starting at high temp, but it will also be a bigger hit and a bigger exhale too i would expect. meaning more wasted vapor in the air after you breathe out possibly.

 

[hereatlast]

Even if the digital vapes do not reflect an accurate herb temperature, they are important in allowing one to quickly dial into desired effects

If by digital vapes you are referring to those with a digital display, I think its worth noting that vaporizers with an analog temperature control can achieve the same thing. If the digital display is not offering a realistic assessment of the temperature of the herb (as is the case with the Extreme and plenty of other vapes) than it seems to just offer an invented reference point (of course its not purely inventive as it is measuring some air sample). An analog controller can offer the same thing with a one o'clock to 12 o'clock measure (or clicks, etc.). It seems a consistent reference point (invented or otherwise) is what's needed for this application. Just my


BTW, max and others have alluded to it, but I think there's something to be said about those who prefer solely low(er) temperature vapors. Some seem to think that this is missing out on something, but so is any form of vaporization.

 

[max]

A consistent digital display, even if inaccurate, can let you zero in on an exact temp better than with an analog dial, but your draw has to be consistent as well, otherwise your precise temp setting doesn't mean much, since the actual vaping temp will vary wildly as draw speed changes.

 

[hereatlast]

A consistent digital display, even if inaccurate, can let you zero in on an exact temp better than with an analog dial

I disagree as I don't think your statement is true universally. I think that "exact temp" can actually be taken to mean different things here: 1) a repeatable operating temperature; 2) a repeatable operating temperature that corresponds to a digital display's readout; etc.

Can you explain what about the nature of a digital display will "let you zero in on an exact temp better than an analog dial?" Some analog controllers offer very precise reference points (increments marked off by notches or clicks) and even their corresponding temperatures. Arguably (even without the corresponding temperature markers) an analog dial can provide the same level of repeatably that a digital display can IMO. So if you know that the third click on an analog dial marks your preferred operating temperature, it seems that this level of precision is just as efficacious as a digital display's readout.

 

[obelisk]

I'm guessing that the flame must vaporize some of the THC even before it touches it in the first place (just by getting close).

Correct. It's possible that when smoking, you actually get more THC from vapor than from smoke. Just get your bowl lit, and let the heat spread as you draw, and you're producing vapor (vapor obviously releases before combustion)and inhaling it, along with the smoke. Use a torch lighter on your bowl (several hundred degrees hotter), while trying to get it all in one hit, and you're probably incinerating more THC than you're getting into your lungs.

To the extent of the 'sanity' in my logic, I do not think this is true for the typical case of combusting marijuana.

Combustion of marijuana usually takes place with the introduction of a flame, not introduction of heat only (typically). The flame is already hot enough to achieve combustion of the plant matter. There is no gradual heating of the plant matter where the state of temperature around boiling point exists for long enough to produce vapor, the temp of the flame is already higher than this/these point(s).

If the flame is in contact with the bowl only, and the heated bowl is in turn heating the plant matter, to a point of combustion, then, yes, vapor may be produced for a while (depends on how quickly this state is passed) and then smoke, as temperatures increase.

But since the flame is contact with plant matter, I do not think vaporization occurs. Or, if it does, it would only for an extremely short period of time. Too short to consider that it actually happened, if that makes any sense.

If your hypothesis is that the flame is applied once the plant matter, but not to all of it, and then this 'cherry' is drawn upon to spread heat to the rest of the plant matter, hence producing vapor-- this again I think would not be true. At least not for long enough for one to consider that actual vapor is being produced. It is more likely that the temperature state for vaporization is passed through so quick that zero or close to zero vapor is produced.

Also, it is possible that the 'cherry' temperature is already past the point of vaporization. In fact that is probably a certainty. Since this cherry is in direct contact with the rest of the herb (which is already heating up even without another draw -- and also consider that the cherry is always 'expanding' until all the matter becomes part of the 'cherry'), combustion would probably occur pretty much immediately upon drawing.

Anyway, I am pretty much a fool and often wrong and totally do not know the exact science behind all of the above. But I think something is inherently incorrect in this (quoted) line of thinking.

 

[djonkoman]

I'm guessing that the flame must vaporize some of the THC even before it touches it in the first place (just by getting close).

Correct. It's possible that when smoking, you actually get more THC from vapor than from smoke. Just get your bowl lit, and let the heat spread as you draw, and you're producing vapor (vapor obviously releases before combustion)and inhaling it, along with the smoke. Use a torch lighter on your bowl (several hundred degrees hotter), while trying to get it all in one hit, and you're probably incinerating more THC than you're getting into your lungs.

To the extent of the 'sanity' in my logic, I do not think this is true for the typical case of combusting marijuana.

Combustion of marijuana usually takes place with the introduction of a flame, not introduction of heat only (typically). The flame is already hot enough to achieve combustion of the plant matter. There is no gradual heating of the plant matter where the state of temperature around boiling point exists for long enough to produce vapor, the temp of the flame is already higher than this/these point(s).

If the flame is in contact with the bowl only, and the heated bowl is in turn heating the plant matter, to a point of combustion, then, yes, vapor may be produced for a while (depends on how quickly this state is passed) and then smoke, as temperatures increase.

But since the flame is contact with plant matter, I do not think vaporization occurs. Or, if it does, it would only for an extremely short period of time. Too short to consider that it actually happened, if that makes any sense.

If your hypothesis is that the flame is applied once the plant matter, but not to all of it, and then this 'cherry' is drawn upon to spread heat to the rest of the plant matter, hence producing vapor-- this again I think would not be true. At least not for long enough for one to consider that actual vapor is being produced. It is more likely that the temperature state for vaporization is passed through so quick that zero or close to zero vapor is produced.

Also, it is possible that the 'cherry' temperature is already past the point of vaporization. In fact that is probably a certainty. Since this cherry is in direct contact with the rest of the herb (which is already heating up even without another draw -- and also consider that the cherry is always 'expanding' until all the matter becomes part of the 'cherry'), combustion would probably occur pretty much immediately upon drawing.

Anyway, I am pretty much a fool and often wrong and totally do not know the exact science behind all of the above. But I think something is inherently incorrect in this (quoted) line of thinking.

if the span of evaporation is small that doesn't mean there is barely vapor
it will probably be more like flash evaporation or sublimation, a lot of energy is added(in the form of heat from the combustion closeby), ebough for evaporisation, but so much that part of the molecules will combust, part vaporizes, part maybe just torn apart(if the energy is big enough to break the molecule bonds)
there simply has to be vapor to give efect, since of the thc and other cannabinoids would be combusted, you would be only inhaling CO2, H2O etc, and those don't get you high

if you would use a torch lighter for smoking you would add even more excess energy and probably more of the molecules will react or be torn apart(and react after that), so less actves inhaled
with vaporizers we just add the amount of energy to bring the evaporisation process to a slow start, not adding such a huge excess of energy, and so we destroy very little or none

just like blowdrying your hair:
you can just let it dry, then it dries slowly
or you blowdry it, add an excess of energy and evaporate the same amount of water in a much shorter timespan