Progression towards the Dark Side or How does your ABV rank?
- Thread starter DDave
- Start date
Yes I!!! Great stuff here all of you, but I'm really, really stoked on the ABV color chip experiment in such quick order Pak!!! That is really interesting. Sorry for derailing the other thread it wasn't my intention, but I see the better fit here (just didn't even know "here" existed) although the cross thread relevancy is still high enough some of this content could (should IMHO) be in both because what good is a discussion of temp dependent effects if the way people are gauging temp isn't consistent and by device readouts (if there even is one) it simply isn't. Is there a way that a moderator can insert something in that thread referencing this thread for the highest (yeah I said "highest") encyclopedic value perhaps?
I'm looking at the lumi color gradients and the pics from Pak's experiment and I can definitely discern more variance in the ordered lumi color chips than I can in the higher temp ABV chips, but not in the lower temp ABV chips --- working on a good MBP monitor here. I'm still thinking a color chip chart with a dozen different temps worth of ABV color chips would be super helpful and super cool given the range in devices and techniques out there, but all the points of why it isn't fully scientifically reliable are well taken and legit for sure. So in the name of Vapor Science that leaves us with the standardized device, strain specific (or at least different dominant and hybrid variation) needs for accuracy, and real time temp probe as the best way to get reliable and accurate results so when that gets hooked up (I have no doubt it will....you know who you are and please rest assured I'll support with whatever test materials I can and anything else I can provide if in Cali!) the ABV color chip by temp <and strain> experiment across more temps would sure be cool even if not as helpful as I'm hunching it would be.
All the variables of why the color is different in raw herb, become significantly less of a function of ABV color the higher the temp goes is what I'm clearly coming away with here --- in other words the ABV color chips would be virtually the same at the higher temps regardless of the carotenoid/flavonoid/sugar (definitely a color factor as Enchantre points out --- just go heat some sugar water on the stove to see the range)/chlorophyll content of the different strains, but much less accurate with more of a finished color range at the lower temps as Pakalolo's experiment clearly shows here. When we played with this concept years ago we didn't really get that low in temp for comparison so where really still playing at just different temps at the higher end of the range which is why we didn't get much color difference between the samples (and we where using older Steinel heat guns that heated up quite a bit before the thermocouple kicked in compared to the vaporizer dedicated devices and newer Steinels do today that hold the real time temp range tighter). I think the most important part of this discussion is that we may have just justified many more years of vapor R&D congrats to all who have contributed!
Hippie Dickie I know Felton well it must have been incredible back in the day!!! The whole Santa Cruz county is still a magic place we have our own laws and exist as a sub-state within Cali (itself a sub-state of sorts) so I'm proud to call it my primary home! That must have been a tough transition to the East Side, but I've been in the upper NY area and it is really cool too --- can't do city life for long just not in my blood. Definitely hit me up if on the West side and if you've got any team in the neighborhood I'd love to host a session so I can melt some flowers through the cube and check your handi-work.
I'm looking at the lumi color gradients and the pics from Pak's experiment and I can definitely discern more variance in the ordered lumi color chips than I can in the higher temp ABV chips, but not in the lower temp ABV chips --- working on a good MBP monitor here. I'm still thinking a color chip chart with a dozen different temps worth of ABV color chips would be super helpful and super cool given the range in devices and techniques out there, but all the points of why it isn't fully scientifically reliable are well taken and legit for sure. So in the name of Vapor Science that leaves us with the standardized device, strain specific (or at least different dominant and hybrid variation) needs for accuracy, and real time temp probe as the best way to get reliable and accurate results so when that gets hooked up (I have no doubt it will....you know who you are and please rest assured I'll support with whatever test materials I can and anything else I can provide if in Cali!) the ABV color chip by temp <and strain> experiment across more temps would sure be cool even if not as helpful as I'm hunching it would be.
All the variables of why the color is different in raw herb, become significantly less of a function of ABV color the higher the temp goes is what I'm clearly coming away with here --- in other words the ABV color chips would be virtually the same at the higher temps regardless of the carotenoid/flavonoid/sugar (definitely a color factor as Enchantre points out --- just go heat some sugar water on the stove to see the range)/chlorophyll content of the different strains, but much less accurate with more of a finished color range at the lower temps as Pakalolo's experiment clearly shows here. When we played with this concept years ago we didn't really get that low in temp for comparison so where really still playing at just different temps at the higher end of the range which is why we didn't get much color difference between the samples (and we where using older Steinel heat guns that heated up quite a bit before the thermocouple kicked in compared to the vaporizer dedicated devices and newer Steinels do today that hold the real time temp range tighter). I think the most important part of this discussion is that we may have just justified many more years of vapor R&D congrats to all who have contributed!
Hippie Dickie I know Felton well it must have been incredible back in the day!!! The whole Santa Cruz county is still a magic place we have our own laws and exist as a sub-state within Cali (itself a sub-state of sorts) so I'm proud to call it my primary home! That must have been a tough transition to the East Side, but I've been in the upper NY area and it is really cool too --- can't do city life for long just not in my blood. Definitely hit me up if on the West side and if you've got any team in the neighborhood I'd love to host a session so I can melt some flowers through the cube and check your handi-work.
Derails are seldom intentional, so no apology necessary. It's possible for anyone to cross-reference this thread by posting in the other, but the FC policy frowns upon posting the same thing in multiple threads. The idea of judging temperature from ABV colour is the concept we're discussing here, while the other thread is about the effects at different temperatures. I contend that although you can learn something from ABV colour, the temperature used isn't one of them. The best you can say is that the darker it is, the more likely it is that a high temperature was used. In other words, if you heat longer at a lower temperature, you will also get darker ABV. Having said that, I also think that you can learn about your own vapourizer from the ABV colour if you use the same material and can achieve consistent temperature points.
Concerning monitors: you (I mean everyone not just ShadowVape) can improve your monitor's display characteristics quite a bit by simply adjusting the contrast and brightness. If you can't see the separate bars at the 0-5 end of my scale, you can try adjusting your black point and gamma: http://www.users.on.net/~julian.robinson/photography/adjust-monitor.htm
If you start down this road you'll find a lot of pages out there about monitor calibration and devices to do this. I don't own such a thing and I think calibration is highly overrated and a crutch. Calibration is a quest for the Holy Grail, the impossible-to-achieve goal of making your monitor and your printer output look alike. There are unresolvable problems with this but that's another discussion. Once a monitor is adjusted for black point and gamma, you've gotten by far the bulk of the benefits of monitor adjustment.
I wish I were in SoCal with you to help with advancing science.
Right Pak makes sense I was meditating on this in the sauna tonight with some nice Lemon Grass and "Peeter" in Swedish Aromatherapy (not sure what that means in English yet, but it was real, real nice and invigorating for the cardio!). ABV color chips probably most useful device and user technique - specific like you've said if not also strain, cure and ambient temp / humidity dependent to get to any kind of scientifically high (yup I said it again) resolution of consequence especially at the lower temps. You'd really have to use a solid filter at each temp that you then run MS analysis on as in the way they test for tar/particulate levels as the most cost effective way to get high resolution scientific data sets and really should probably use a solvent based trap approach to get the most accurate results of what is being delivered at what real time setting/display to get this nut. That said those rigs are all a bit subjective in how they are set up and what vacuum rate is used (will ever be the same as a real inhalation) too so have their own issues with resolution.
That said I'm still digging the efforts and think it could be helpful to compile the catalog of chips with relative meta-data as DDave has suggested here in this thread. If nothing else it would give newbies something to go by to know they're "getting something" and understand why that over-browning of even a Sat Dom flave lead to a nap needing to happen! The reality is most of users are at the high end of the spectrum anyway and even a "medical" vape is going to reach for most of the spectrum so be on the higher end of the temp range being worked with to benefit all those helpful therapeutics you see at the lower temps. From my experience it's pretty simple to keep it practical anyway: go lighter brown during the day to keep it more functional and alert and go a bit darker at night if you want to lay it down and become one with the couch or bed!
And Santa Cruz is actually closer to SF and Silicon Valley than So. Cal; right over the hill (or on top of the hill in our case) from SV actually --- if you're ever in the neighborhood hit me up for sure we'll melt some really special flowers the blessings are abundant, high elevation and living organic/bio-dynamic that we usually work with for R&D...Flavor Country for sure. Give thanks for pipe dreams come true! I'm out of the country until March, but promise to contribute some strain specific Day/Night color chips when back in Cali and am well equipped again.
That said I'm still digging the efforts and think it could be helpful to compile the catalog of chips with relative meta-data as DDave has suggested here in this thread. If nothing else it would give newbies something to go by to know they're "getting something" and understand why that over-browning of even a Sat Dom flave lead to a nap needing to happen! The reality is most of users are at the high end of the spectrum anyway and even a "medical" vape is going to reach for most of the spectrum so be on the higher end of the temp range being worked with to benefit all those helpful therapeutics you see at the lower temps. From my experience it's pretty simple to keep it practical anyway: go lighter brown during the day to keep it more functional and alert and go a bit darker at night if you want to lay it down and become one with the couch or bed!
And Santa Cruz is actually closer to SF and Silicon Valley than So. Cal; right over the hill (or on top of the hill in our case) from SV actually --- if you're ever in the neighborhood hit me up for sure we'll melt some really special flowers the blessings are abundant, high elevation and living organic/bio-dynamic that we usually work with for R&D...Flavor Country for sure. Give thanks for pipe dreams come true! I'm out of the country until March, but promise to contribute some strain specific Day/Night color chips when back in Cali and am well equipped again.
Oops, sorry for mixing up my Cals. California for me is the place I do my layovers between flights on my way to and from Maui.
I realize that I missed an interesting opportunity with the ABV. I should have kept track of the hits and photographed the final outcome. I think I got 6-7 hits before I dumped it. I'm not sure how much darker it was, but I can tell you that it would probably have been difficult to see the difference in a picture. Another thing the eye does is separate colours way better than a camera. That's why a rainbow always photographs as duller than you remembered, and that forest of brilliant greens looks flat and muddy in your picture.
I realize that I missed an interesting opportunity with the ABV. I should have kept track of the hits and photographed the final outcome. I think I got 6-7 hits before I dumped it. I'm not sure how much darker it was, but I can tell you that it would probably have been difficult to see the difference in a picture. Another thing the eye does is separate colours way better than a camera. That's why a rainbow always photographs as duller than you remembered, and that forest of brilliant greens looks flat and muddy in your picture.
No doubt well maybe if you never extend a layover we'll have to sesh in Maui it used to be on our regular visit routine before the kids started dropping and Jason King has been campaigning hard for us to get back on the island to see his new camp. I'd sure love to visit again miss the place!
I've got a three close friends heavy into the photography and man you're not kidding, but what a difference the equipment makes these days!!! Insane what is possible if you've got the right gear AND know how to use it.
I've got a three close friends heavy into the photography and man you're not kidding, but what a difference the equipment makes these days!!! Insane what is possible if you've got the right gear AND know how to use it.
Tweak
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It's always made a difference, it's just now things are getting smaller,
. They used to lug around Medium format cameras back in the day, now we have mirror-less Full Frame cameras. But we sure have came far with digital and it's ability to handle low levels of light.Speaking of photography, I wonder if a reflective light meter could be used somehow? If the light is controlled (like an LED) and knows how much light should be reflected off of fresh material, or takes a base reading, it could determine how much oil is lost maybe? Idk, maybe I'm stretching here. Be worth experimenting.
No doubt Tweak I got my wife an Olympus OMD E-M5 latest and greatest super small for it's capabilities "mirror-less" camera last year for her birthday and Christmas doubled up (I'm always the one blowing the ends on toys so was doing my best to make up) and we're still tripping off of what it can do and it's barely bigger than a common compact digital. Had to have my professional photographer bro give my wife some pointers there is such a range of capabilities and we've enjoyed playing with it taking some ridiculously detailed macros that you can just keep zooming in and in on and it's like you've got your subject under a microscope --- for a camera that was barely over a G with the lenses it's hard to believe what it can do.
The light meter experiment sounds interesting nothing wrong with a stretch I've made a living and my back feel better off of stretches! As long as a baseline is taken you'll get something relative and if you took a macro before and after for comparison it would be interesting to see if you get differences based upon gland profile, i.e. some strains have more smaller heads and some have less larger heads which will definitely change the reflective factor, and in turn, the perceived color / tone right?
The light meter experiment sounds interesting nothing wrong with a stretch I've made a living and my back feel better off of stretches! As long as a baseline is taken you'll get something relative and if you took a macro before and after for comparison it would be interesting to see if you get differences based upon gland profile, i.e. some strains have more smaller heads and some have less larger heads which will definitely change the reflective factor, and in turn, the perceived color / tone right?