PBW & the Chemistry of Clean

[GreenHopper]

I swap the water out of my MFLB Orbiter every 3-4 days. When I do:

• I dump the water
• Run under warm tap for a few moments, raising the temp bit by bit over about 1min
• fill the Orbiter with ISO place in hot water
• place the OGB mouthpiece in a zip lock bag with ISO and immerse in hot water

After 15min I take both out of the water, pour ISO back in the bottle, give them a quick warm rinse.

I was excited to try PBW but the lid on the pot I bought seems busted, I just can't seem to get the bugger open.

To be honest, at the rate I swap water and clean the ISO seems to get the job done.

I actually don't mind the process at all, it's kinda therapeutic and it keeps my glass spotless.

 

[Baron23]

Thanks for the explanation! I am just exploring the idea of adding a water tool, likely a bubbler to my Vapcap vaping. I know nothing about water tools; the devices themselves or the techniques for use or maintenance, so please excuse my silly questions....

I imagined that with every water pipe session, the spent herb as well as the used water would be discarded. If not, how long can you typically use the same water?

HI @Squiby - your questions aren't silly at all and I think you will love putting your VCs on a water tool.

I think this has already been suggested but I recommend cheap, DHGate Chinese glass to start and perhaps stay with (some of that stuff is real good).

I suppose how long water is left in a piece varies by individual to some degree. Some of us are OCD and others slops, right? LOL I don't change after every session but will do most often after 3-4 days of use. I'm sure others do it differently. I also keep my glass pretty clean. Others who may require more frequent and/or heavier medication may not have the time or feel like cleaning glass as often.

So, best taste....clean glass and fresh distilled water.

 

[CuckFumbustion]

O.K. I own a Rubbermaid tub with grooves on bottom. Not a flat bottom. So all the adapters, wands and ELBs can sit on their side and roll around a lot less. Then I place a silicone mat on top. Lift one of the corners of the mat and pour the dissolved PBW and warm water into that space forcing the flow of water to go through the pieces instead of simply pouring water in the tub. Easier to flush and get more bubbles action of them trying to find a way out. Control the flow. Easier to pour the water out also.

Different length of soaks and strengths of PBW mix to get rid of the particles and the bulk of it was clean. ISO soaked the problem pieces and scrubbed with coffee filters. Then back in with the other glass and ELBs for more soaking and treatments.

Well, all but the adapters that were used as heat adapters are spotless. ELBs looked cleaner than ISO but the black bits were still left, but easier to work off. ISO may have taken some of that away in another step perhaps.

Bought citric acid. How is is used to clean glass? I soaked my worst ones and nothing really.

So the heat adapters are a lot cleaner with some brown and stubborn flecks at the socket ends. They were beyond caramelized beforehand. Now just partially yellowed. Way to tell them apart anyway.

Distilled water? I can taste the difference with spring water.

 

[CuckFumbustion]

'm with you....hot water is better than warm.

True. but I am avoiding any heat stress if it isn't really not needed. 1st time out, it definitely was needed or else waste a lot of PBW. Don't think I will need as much heat in the future, if I get into a weekly routine.

The purpose of the cranberry, as I understand it, is that it will help slow/decrease amount of reclaim building in your glass. I have found, however, that using the cranberry also necessitates pretty frequent changes in bong water as the cranberry will grow mold/bacteria if the water is left standing for too long.

I'm guessing the particles will collect either to the glass or to each other. So if the Rezbloc doesn't dissolve it, then the particles are taking away from my vapor quality regardless. This is all speculation on my part. Feel free to correct me.

I'm thinking, If I keep the surface clean, the less particles that are available to stick to. Don't think Rezbloc is the solution for me. I'm going for the water purity angle. If Reszbloc or cranberry offered some help in say soaking off the particles. I'd use it for that perhaps. But not wanting to vape through it. Just my take.

Thanks for the explanation! I am just exploring the idea of adding a water tool, likely a bubbler to my Vapcap vaping. I know nothing about water tools; the devices themselves or the techniques for use or maintenance, so please excuse my silly questions....

I imagined that with every water pipe session, the spent herb as well as the used water would be discarded. If not, how long can you typically use the same water?

Me too. But getting great results for the effort I put into it. How long? Personal preference. If the water looks froggy, I dump it. For the same reasons about particles wanting to stick to each other.

 

[waxdab23]

Damn, just gave my Gr8r a PBW wash and I think I fucked up...

I tried washing it again with just water and vinegar but the PBW residue wouldn't budge. Would you guys worry about grinding with this?

 

[CuckFumbustion]

Perhaps I'd put it in water and see if air bubbles form on it. If so, I'd try soaking it over night and shake it occasionally. It might be residue that found it's way in the cracks perhaps?

PBW is supposed to be O.K with Stainless steel. (Is it caked on or pitted? BTW) I've clean my ELB's and screens with it once. and they looked fine. But I was concerned beforehand.

Is your grinder some sort of alloy? My concern is if there was some sort reaction that causes certain metals to corrode. If it is just fused on the surface, there might me a remedy.

 

[MoltenTiger]

I would guess that is an oxidation/redox reaction between the aluminium alloy and the PBW solution.

From Kannastor "the plates are made from 60/61 hardened aluminum, then chemically bathed and anodized"

So, it's a reaction between the anodised coating and the solution.
You could try extended soaking n PBW, but I think it would be wiser to replace it (or get an SLX so you don't have to clean your grinder )

I had a similar problem with my TiO2 coating (anodised titanium, less complex than Al) with my colour grasshopper when I cleaned the mouthpiece with PBW. In that instance it was fine, I don't know if I'd be as comfortable with cheap aluminium and potentially dyed anodised contaminants.

 

[Silat]

Directly from Kannastor

Kannastor Tips:


If cleaning a grinder with a clear acrylic body or acrylic clear top lid, do not use rubbing alcohol, boil in water or freeze the acrylic jar parts as it may create cracks in the acrylic.


For acrylic parts, either use soap and warm water or other acrylic friendly cleaner.


While ISO is very good at removing residue, it can also be harmful to fragile components of the GR8TR.


For a mild cleaning, soap and warm water will do fine.


If you're looking for a deeper clean, a powdered 420 cleaner is a safe bet as well.


Liquid 420 cleaners are basically just ISO with an abrasive agent, so be careful to get something non-alcohol based!

 

[MoltenTiger]

Perhaps @waxdab23, you should email Kannastor customer support and say you used a powdered 420 cleaner and it fucked your plate.

They make enough off these acrylic and cheap alloy grinders to send you a plate, and they have pretty reasonable support if you're not in the UK

 

[CuckFumbustion]

Perhaps @waxdab23, you should email Kannastor customer support and say you used a powdered 420 cleaner and it fucked your plate.

They make enough off these acrylic and cheap alloy grinders to send you a plate, and they have pretty reasonable support if you're not in the UK

Yea, I need to reread and get to know more of the chemistry side including the warnings.

It does mention being good for other applications. Did a fine job cleaning my ELB's which are SS. I do want to know how it reacts with silicone.

When I got more confident with PBW and how it worked part of it's magic, I placed all my SS and glass adapters in a single plastic tub with a silicone mat pressed down over it creating a semi-seal pocket. The mat I have has a lip in it, which is nice for my setup. All the objects get that slow water flow surrounding and flowing threw it.

Now If I can use granules of PBW and citric acid and teaspoons of ISO to finish off, then I will be ready for a weekly routine. Then simplify the steps even further without relying on any shaking and hot water extremes. Getting closer...

It is easier to keep clean surfaces clean. And the particles that you are trying to remove will tend to stick to each other and less of the surface as they pass through. If do-able then worthwhile, I can come up with more reclaim tricks knowing that beforehand. When your glass is squeaky clean, then they are more likely to stick to each other first, right? Well if I run hot water at a slow trickle through my piece, the larger globs stick to each other and are collecting at the water level being formed and rising inside the glass.

 

[Hogni]

@Squiby depends on your taste. Bong water after vaping isnt smelling and tasting so bad as bong water after combustion. I change mine daily. But guess a change after 10-15 bowls should be recommended.

 

[t-dub]

@Squiby - the cranberry extract has unique properties as it contains proanthocyanidins. What they do is provide a "bio-slipperiness" so things won't stick. This is why people use cranberry to get rid of urinary tract infections. The cranberry doesn't kill the infection, rather, it makes things so slippery that the bad guys can't stay in place and get flushed away. Its this same action that keeps resin from sticking to your glass and makes cleaning your glass much easier.

I put a dash of citric acid in with mine to prevent the bacterial growth problem. Citric acid is a common food preservative and can be found in canning supplies or home brew stores. Its also called "sour salt" and is what gives sour candy its sour power.

Another benefit of the cranberry/citric acid mix is that it seems to keep your diffuser water cleaner and fresher for longer.

Sorry this response is so late but I had to take some time off of FC as I have been taking prednisone and was not fit for public consumption for a while.

I did start a thread on the subject and am considering making a resource for it:
http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/rezblock-cranberry-extract.8060/page-48
http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/rezblock-cranberry-extract.8060/page-48

 

[Squiby]

the cranberry extract has unique properties as it contains proanthocyanidins. What they do is provide a "bio-slipperiness" so things won't stick.

I think that I need to get myself a bottle this stuff!

I put a dash of citric acid in with mine to prevent the bacterial growth problem.

Thanks for the tip. I have a big jar of critic acid in my pantry. I'll try it.

Sorry this response is so late but I had to take some time off of FC as I have been taking prednisone and was not fit for public consumption for a while.

I can sympathize. I have had such horrid side effects from Prednisone in the past that I now refuse to take it. I hope you are feeling better soon!

 

[CuckFumbustion]

From the VapeXhale thread. Decided to bring it over here for you to perhaps get something out of this. LSS. I might go further on this topic here with more to say in another post in this thread. Or perhaps you will?

Not to derail, but I have to ask. What motivated you to put citric acid in with PBW? My first thought was you were confusing the addition of citric acid to cranberry extract diffuser mediums for the purpose of reducing microbial growth. However, if you have found an enhancement to the cleaning power of PBW by adding citric acid, I would like your thoughts on that. What do you think is happening and why? By using citric acid to lower the PH it will at some point become a sanitizer, is that what your thinking? Since PBW is not a sanitizer, like One Step, you may be able to make it one possibly?

It was a heuristic experiment. Try every small method to see what works in my 4 options. PBW, citric acid, vinegar, ISO. Baking soda is being looked at.

The Citric Acid does seems to enhance the cleaning power and melts the honey glaze build up where PBW can't on it's own. I even cut back on the PBW needed and even gotten some headway using tepid water with citric acid alone. Also read elsewhere of other applications of citric acid and why this might be the case. And with my shake jar method, the bubble action is more turbulent. Putting a lid on the jar means the oxygen being formed by the PBW and citric acid becomes trapped. PBW can be used to clean SS but not all metals. I've been using Vinegar as a sanitizer with my glass. BTW. Also noticed a chemical reaction with citric acid and ISO. If things develop more, I will contribute to the PBW thread.

As far as using it with my EVO and it's toys. The ELB's are almost new looking for the effort and small amounts of ISO, then Citric acid and PBW. Apparently, If I follow what @t-dub is saying, they are becoming sanitized as a matter of course, by my rinsing away of the Citric acid. And as mentioned in the post could be sanitizing also.

My HT stays a lot cleaner as I predicted. By getting in to the weekly habit of cleaning all my glass. Slick surfaces tend to stay cleaner. So there is less reason for build up to form.

PBW will cause pits in certain metal alloys. Saw the one pic of a grinder that took damage. My stuff is either glass, SS or silicone hose and Nongs. Will ask if the hose I'm getting is technically PBW safe.

I like fresh water in water pieces. And with a few that I cleaned, I started with citric acid and warm water as a first rinse. Really slow moving water. As one method of peeling off the residue.

Drink cranberry juice from time to time. UTI prevention, and other benefits. But would rather clean weekly than use something in the water. ATM.

 

[Silat]

This thread needs to be pinned. It has valuable information for all.
t-dub thanks.

 

[t-dub]

PBW will cause pits in certain metal alloys. Saw the one pic of a grinder that took damage.

Its not pitting the metal, it removes the anodized finish. Here is what happened to my SC Ti when I found this out the hard way . . .

Never put anything anodized into a PBW solution. PBW is safe on polycarbonate because it does not affect the elastomers or plasticizers like a solvent will. Thats why ISO ruins some plastics and rubbers. Thanks for taking the time and please keep us updated on your adventures . . .

Found an interesting article on making PBW at home: http://unluckybrewing.com/homemade-pbw/ However doing this yields a different experience as PBW is formulated to counteract hard water so it has "buffers" in it.

Looks like it is a 30% sodium metasilicate, 70% oxiclean mix. This is the first time I found that ratio published online.

PRODUCT TECH SHEET
P.B.W.
Patent Nos. 5,663,132 & 5,789,361
Environmentally friendly, caustic replacement with
multiple uses.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
BENEFITS

• Replaces Caustic Soda cleaners
• Effective at All Temperatures
• Free Rinsing
• Safe on Polycarbonate surfaces
• Safe to handle
• Generates 4 - 5% Oxygen
• Non-hazardous & Non-corrosive
• Excellent hard water tolerance
• Removes protein soil and staining, baked on carbon, and fatty acids

DESCRIPTION

P.B.W. is a buffered alkaline detergent that has been proven to be more than an
effective substitute for caustic soda cleaners. Because of its unique formulation
of buffers and mild alkalis, it is safe on skin as well as soft metals such as stainless
steel, aluminum, and on plastics. P.B.W. uses active oxygen to penetrate carbon
or protein soils and is not effected by hard water. The oxygen also helps in
reducing B.O.D. and C.O.D. in wastewater, which is an added environmental
benefit.

P.B.W. has been formulated as a C.I.P. cleaner and is very effective in removing
protein soils found on brew kettles, fermenters, conditioning tanks, filters and all
packaging areas. The concentrations to remove these soils are typically in the
1% range. However, due to soil and water conditions this concentration will
vary. To help in hard water areas P.B.W. has been formulated with enough
chelators to tolerate hard water over 17 grains.
P.B.W. is an excellent choice as a soak cleaner because it does not require excessive heat as do most caustic based cleaners. This product has cleaned brass and copper filters, and industrial aluminum surfaces successfully.

PROPERTIES

APPEARANCE. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ……. . . . …... . . . . . . . .WHITE POWDER
RINSING ABILITY . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . …………. …... . . . . . . . EXCELLENT
FOAM . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ….. . . . . ……NONE ABOVE 100 ° F
pH OF 1% SOLUTION . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ….. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . …... . . . . . . . .12.0%

GENERAL USE DIRECTIONS

CIRCULATION CLEANING: Use 1 to 3 ounces per gallon depending on soil load.
Heat to 130° to 180° F for 30 minutes.
CARBON REMOVAL: Use 6 to 8 ounces per gallon of water. Heat to 140 ° F for 4 hours or allow to soak cold overnight.
When using P.B.W. in food processing areas the equipment that has been cleaned must be rinsed with potable water. Just prior to use, sanitize the equipment in accordance with public health standards.

SAFETY

DANGER: Can be harmful if swallowed. Can cause eye irritation. Contains sodium metasilicate and sodium carbonate. FIRST AID: For contact with skin and eyes, flush thoroughly with cool running water. For eyes, flush for at least 15 minutes and get medical attention. If swallowed, do not induce vomiting. Drink large amounts of milk or water. Call a physician.

 

[sokesleezy]

This product has cleaned brass and copper filters, and industrial aluminum surfaces successfully.

I find it interesting that they specified industrial aluminum. Is there a difference?

 

[t-dub]

I find it interesting that they specified industrial aluminum. Is there a difference?

The term industrial can be used to describe industrial aluminum production that started at the turn of the twentieth century. Aluminum has become an essential manufacturing material in nearly every industrial process and application. There is simply no other metal that is as plentiful, economical and useful.

It can also be used to describe "industrial" uses for plate, sheet, foils, casting, extrusions, forgings, rods, bars, pigments and powders.

 

[jl420]

@Squiby - the cranberry extract has unique properties as it contains proanthocyanidins. What they do is provide a "bio-slipperiness" so things won't stick. This is why people use cranberry to get rid of urinary tract infections. The cranberry doesn't kill the infection, rather, it makes things so slippery that the bad guys can't stay in place and get flushed away. Its this same action that keeps resin from sticking to your glass and makes cleaning your glass much easier.

I put a dash of citric acid in with mine to prevent the bacterial growth problem. Citric acid is a common food preservative and can be found in canning supplies or home brew stores. Its also called "sour salt" and is what gives sour candy its sour power.

Another benefit of the cranberry/citric acid mix is that it seems to keep your diffuser water cleaner and fresher for longer.

Sorry this response is so late but I had to take some time off of FC as I have been taking prednisone and was not fit for public consumption for a while.

I did start a thread on the subject and am considering making a resource for it:
http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/rezblock-cranberry-extract.8060/page-48

...so a prewash in cranberry juice will help the PBW be more effective cleaning my glass?
Luv the posts very helpful and useful info Thanx Bro...

 

[t-dub]

...so a prewash in cranberry juice will help the PBW be more effective cleaning my glass?
Luv the posts very helpful and useful info Thanx Bro...

Your welcome. You must use the cranberry extract when your glass is clean. Once resin sticks to your glass its too late. The cranberry extract keeps the resin from sticking to your glass in the first place and is not used as a cleaner.

 

[jl420]

Your welcome. You must use the cranberry extract when your glass is clean. Once resin sticks to your glass its too late. The cranberry extract keeps the resin from sticking to your glass in the first place and is not used as a cleaner.

I see Thanx bro...

 

[little maggie]

Just getting ready to wash all my glass stems in pbw. Is it safe to leave the screens in when I do that?

 

[t-dub]

Just getting ready to wash all my glass stems in pbw. Is it safe to leave the screens in when I do that?

PBW will not hurt screens, in fact, it should clean them . . .

 

[CuckFumbustion]

PBW will not hurt screens, in fact, it should clean them . . .

Works great with SS ELBs. Even the simple method in my shake jar and lid. I can feel the rough texture of the metal after cleaning. Like new. Perhaps for long soaks, it might take away some deep scorching/discoloration? Some where I read in the PBW literature about using it for grills.

I did come up with a slow moving water method when I wanted to clean all the glass adapters and all my screens. Trapping the bubble and controlling the water flow. Trying to incorporate slow turbulence and air bubbles.

 

[sokesleezy]

PBW worked great cleaning my vapor bros stainless steel screens.