PBW & the Chemistry of Clean

[xlr8shun]

i was going to suggest an endoscope brush, as they are made for sensitive components, and have poly and delrin shafts that are flexible and can bend almost 180 degrees...

until i saw the price of these single use, disposable brushes... $65 per each brush and up depending on the materials you wanted..

so, my second suggestion what about pipe cleaners.. get the really really fluffy kind, fold your pipe cleaner ends over itself so it wont scratch anything and just be careful

 

[ZC]

So does PBW work well with metals like SS and TI? Are they any concerns with PBW and silicone? I'm considering using it to clean my Omnivap vapcap but wanted to get others opinions/experiences first.

 

[hafalump]

I don't know about other metal, but it pits aluminum.

 

[CuckFumbustion]

It's fine with anything SS for me. It works hard on cleaning my ELBs. Pulls off everything that isn't black and fused on. And that part flakes off easily due to the PBW soak.

There is a Q&A section worth checking. I remember reading a more detailed list elsewhere about cleaning grilles and other applications. But read any info carefully and get to know what materials you are cleaning. I would avoid any alloy metals of any kind. Especially grinders.

I used it on my VC's once they came from the factory/Dynavap to get off any machine grease before using it.
PBW - Powdered Brewery Wash - Northern Brewer

There is other info in this thread here that I remember.

 

[Gn0sis]

anyone try simple green?

still can't get my piece clean. i'm thinking of purchasing some, as I've already tried PBW, Alconox, Vinegar + salt and now most recently, an overnight soak in water mixed with sodium hydroxide as an acid.

 

[MoltenTiger]

anyone try simple green?

still can't get my piece clean. i'm thinking of purchasing some, as I've already tried PBW, Alconox, Vinegar + salt and now most recently, an overnight soak in water mixed with sodium hydroxide as an acid.

Have you tried acetone?

 

[Gn0sis]

Have you tried acetone?

too toxic for me. trying to stay away from the really bad stuff until its the last resort.

i ended up ordering 30% pure vinegar and BB pellets. i read in amazon reviews that simple green doesnt remove hard water stains from soaking if they have been accumulating there for a long while, which in my case, they have.

 

[MoltenTiger]

too toxic for me. trying to stay away from the really bad stuff until its the last resort.

i ended up ordering 30% pure vinegar and BB pellets. i read in amazon reviews that simple green doesnt remove hard water stains from soaking if they have been accumulating there for a long while, which in my case, they have.

Fair call, but I would suggest that subsequent PBW washes should adequately rinse away any residuals. Hot water is key to rinsing acetone, it's actually not very risky if you follow an appropriate procedure. Isopropyl alcohol is also toxic, and similarly volatile, and should be handled in the same manner.

If acetone doesn't work, look into Calcium Lime Rust if you have hard water stains that PBW isn't ridding.

I would also suggest super heating water, zap it with PBW in solution for a good while in a microwave (be careful, it will boil instantaneously when agitated (explode)) as this will improve the effectivity of PBW, which should be capable of cleaning hard water stains with its chelating agents and surfactants.

I think a little acetone rinse would be safer than that though, but probably less capable too

 

[Gn0sis]

Fair call, but I would suggest that subsequent PBW washes should adequately rinse away any residuals. Hot water is key to rinsing acetone, it's actually not very risky if you follow an appropriate procedure. Isopropyl alcohol is also toxic, and similarly volatile, and should be handled in the same manner.

If acetone doesn't work, look into Calcium Lime Rust if you have hard water stains that PBW isn't ridding.

I would also suggest super heating water, zap it with PBW in solution for a good while in a microwave (be careful, it will boil instantaneously when agitated (explode)) as this will improve the effectivity of PBW, which should be capable of cleaning hard water stains with its chelating agents and surfactants.

I think a little acetone rinse would be safer than that though, but probably less capable too

i soaked with a mild PBW + water mix at first for about 8 hours. no effect
2nd try, i made a very concentrated mix of PBW + water and let it soak for 3 days. no effect. only made new stains from PBW on my piece.

About same experience with Alconox minus new stains.

CLR is also super toxic. i think that or acetone is going to be my next purchase if 30% vinegar soak with salt, BB pellets and periodic shacking doesnt do the job.

 

[MoltenTiger]

i soaked with a mild PBW + water mix at first for about 8 hours. no effect
2nd try, i made a very concentrated mix of PBW + water and let it soak for 3 days. no effect. only made new stains from PBW on my piece.

About same experience with Alconox minus new stains.

CLR is also super toxic. i think that or acetone is going to be my next purchase if 30% vinegar soak with salt, BB pellets and periodic shacking doesnt do the job.

Both of those soak times are very long, I usually soak with PBW for ~5-10 minutes. The trick is hot water from what I've seen, but that's mainly in terms of cleaning resin

 

[Hogni]

Yepp. Do it more often than long

 

[Likes2vape]

I use pool acid (Muratic acid) to remove hard water stains from my pieces but I was a pool guy for many years out of high school. It'll take any calcium build up right off but you need to be super careful with it and take proper precautions with it. Wear rubber gloves, eye protection, never add water to acid, always add water first and than the acid, do not get the acid on a metal sink, etc.

 

[Gn0sis]

Both of those soak times are very long, I usually soak with PBW for ~5-10 minutes. The trick is hot water from what I've seen, but that's mainly in terms of cleaning resin

can you please elaborate why short PBW soaks are better than long for my needs (besides the stains lol)?

If it didnt do anything to the deposits after 3 days, how many 5 - 10 minute soaks do you estimate i'd need to see some effect?

 

[Hogni]

Try soaks up to max. 30 min. How often? We don't know how dirty your glass is

 

[MoltenTiger]

can you please elaborate why short PBW soaks are better than long for my needs (besides the stains lol)?

If it didnt do anything to the deposits after 3 days, how many 5 - 10 minute soaks do you estimate i'd need to see some effect?

Long PBW soaks insinuates that the solution is cold for the major duration, this limits its cleaning potential.
From what I have observed, cold PBW isn't much good without scrubbing. To use an abrasiveless approach, I would suggest it is near vital to have hot temperature water. I normally just pour boiling water directly from a kettle (it seems pre-mixing is not necessary as long as it is at least agitated and mixed some, but I generally do pre-mix to avoid salt deposits, though I've found them to easily rinse away but better safe than sorry), and as I mostly have cleaned clear glass I can observe the whole reaction process - but I've only cleaned combustion pieces and resin from vapour, not hard water stains. I've only read that it can work, if they're really seasoned stains such that you have, I really don't know if it would work or not.
I actually gave a baggie of some to a friend, but forgot to tell them to use hot water and they had no luck with it, so I just thought I would emphasise that aspect here.

Short rinses are good, there's a tapering effect of power of effectivity as the reaction persists, so numerous washes in succession is worth trying (I had to do 7 once to get rid of RezBlock slime trapped between percolators).

The glass at that point was stripped back to bare borosilicate, so if that doesn't do the trick then I'd stop boiling the kettle and don the safety gear and go all out.
PBW should be sufficient to rinse most hardcore shit away, but you could also do pre-solvent rinses or even sanitising agents to be sure too.

Whatever the case, unless the glass has been hit with sulfuric acid or something, it should be recoverable

 

[Gn0sis]

Long PBW soaks insinuates that the solution is cold for the major duration, this limits its cleaning potential.
From what I have observed, cold PBW isn't much good without scrubbing. To use an abrasiveless approach, I would suggest it is near vital to have hot temperature water. I normally just pour boiling water directly from a kettle (it seems pre-mixing is not necessary as long as it is at least agitated and mixed some, but I generally do pre-mix to avoid salt deposits, though I've found them to easily rinse away but better safe than sorry), and as I mostly have cleaned clear glass I can observe the whole reaction process - but I've only cleaned combustion pieces and resin from vapour, not hard water stains. I've only read that it can work, if they're really seasoned stains such that you have, I really don't know if it would work or not.
I actually gave a baggie of some to a friend, but forgot to tell them to use hot water and they had no luck with it, so I just thought I would emphasise that aspect here.

Short rinses are good, there's a tapering effect of power of effectivity as the reaction persists, so numerous washes in succession is worth trying (I had to do 7 once to get rid of RezBlock slime trapped between percolators).

The glass at that point was stripped back to bare borosilicate, so if that doesn't do the trick then I'd stop boiling the kettle and don the safety gear and go all out.
PBW should be sufficient to rinse most hardcore shit away, but you could also do pre-solvent rinses or even sanitising agents to be sure too.

Whatever the case, unless the glass has been hit with sulfuric acid or something, it should be recoverable

very much appreciate the elaboration. i never tried boiling or close to boiling water. i only used hottest water possible from the faucet and then by the time i mixed in the PBW, the water was definitely not hot enough.

i will try boiling water + PBW while im waiting for the vinegar and BBs.

 

[MoltenTiger]

very much appreciate the elaboration. i never tried boiling or close to boiling water. i only used hottest water possible from the faucet and then by the time i mixed in the PBW, the water was definitely not hot enough.

i will try boiling water + PBW while im waiting for the vinegar and BBs.

I had some good success today with water from a kettle off a combustion stove, super hot. It makes it hard to handle the piece though, what I do is bung the rig and fill it to the brim with it standing in a sink, rotate it around so there's no air bubbles in it. You'll want to do this to avoid horizon lines on the inner surface. Initially I'd try a full teaspoon to 500mL and pre-mix

So does PBW work well with metals like SS and TI? Are they any concerns with PBW and silicone? I'm considering using it to clean my Omnivap vapcap but wanted to get others opinions/experiences first.

I clean my Ti and SS Grasshopper PFE's with PBW. It works a treat, takes only a couple of minutes.
I've found a hot rinse under a tap to get resin off, a dunk and swish around PBW solution, a rinse with alcohol and another PBW dunk does the trick. Again boiling hot water.

It will discolour anodised Ti though, plain finishes are fine. Possibly the same with stainless

 

[t-dub]

YES . . . PBW will dissolve anodized finishes for sure but just the finish!!! It is safe to use on metal and even polycarbonate, plastics, and silicone. So please lets clear that up immediately.

To the person with the "hard water" stains . . . it is possible that your "hard water" did in fact injure your glass to the point that it is unrecoverable. It is also possible that something else might have caused the soiling and might be recoverable if the the offending agent can be identified properly.

 

[Gn0sis]

To the person with the "hard water" stains . . . it is possible that your "hard water" did in fact injure your glass to the point that it is unrecoverable. It is also possible that something else might have caused the soiling and might be recoverable if the the offending agent can be identified properly.

any idea what can cause soiling such as what I have?

there are rings in the bottom chamber that look like marks from a water flow or scratches from something very hard and heavy going in circular motions. you can see them fairly well if you click to zoom into the picture. but, what messes with my head is that there is a completely clean tiny "dot" (not seen in pic) in the middle of one of these rings that shouldn't be there.... so, far i tried about 5 PBW + boiling water soaks and 2 soaks with 30% vinegar with salt + BBs and hottest setting faucet water running over the piece for 20 minutes with occasional shaking.

I know it's not scratches for sure, as I bought this piece brand new and never put anything that might scratch it inside there. Besides, scratches wouldn't explain a perfectly clean small "dot" in a place where it shouldn't be.

now thinking of getting either CLR or acetone... would also appreciate feedback on which is more likely to be effective, if at all.

 

[MinnBobber]

...there are rings in the bottom chamber that look like marks from a water flow or scratches from something very hard and heavy going in circular motions....

....................................................................................................................................................

Could the rings really be the remainder of "film" that was not cleaned by BB's??
Did you swirl the BB's where they might have cleaned the film into circles?

Do you use distilled water for the Mobius? If/when you finally solve the cleaning mystery, IMO it would
be wise to use only distilled water.

 

[Gn0sis]

Could the rings really be the remainder of "film" that was not cleaned by BB's??
Did you swirl the BB's where they might have cleaned the film into circles?

Do you use distilled water for the Mobius? If/when you finally solve the cleaning mystery, IMO it would
be wise to use only distilled water.

The rings were there long before the BBs. BBs didnt seem to do anything to those rings at all.

Nowadays, I use Reverse Osmosis water that gets changed every week in all my pieces and exclusively dab at low temperatures. So, the rest of my glass collection doesn't have this problem.

 

[Baron23]

The rings were there long before the BBs. BBs didnt seem to do anything to those rings at all.

Nowadays, I use Reverse Osmosis water that gets changed every week in all my pieces and exclusively dab at low temperatures. So, the rest of my glass collection doesn't have this problem.

I know you didn't do anything to scratch it, but it just doesn't look like any sort of deposited residue I have seen.

Just saying, you may be trying to clean already clean glass and that the defect is in the finish or in the glass itself....maybe?

Can you look downward toward the rings and see if there appears to be just on the inside surface or is any depth to it??

Just throwing out ideas...not necessarily good ones...just one. LOL

 

[Gn0sis]

I know you didn't do anything to scratch it, but it just doesn't look like any sort of deposited residue I have seen.

Just saying, you may be trying to clean already clean glass and that the defect is in the finish or in the glass itself....maybe?

Can you look downward toward the rings and see if there appears to be just on the inside surface or is any depth to it??

Just throwing out ideas...not necessarily good ones...just one. LOL

maybe its a defect? it wasnt there when i bough the piece or was first using it.

below is my best attempt at capturing that small clean "spot" i was talking about.

the entire chamber is foggy with white in lines, but this one spot is perfectly clean. if something is heavy enough to scratch glass and make those lines, would it really leave a perfectly intact, unscratched spot like that? that spot doesnt protrude out from the rest of the area around it

i can't find an angle from which it would be possible to see the depth, but that little clean "spot" is the argument I tell myself against it being scratches...

I ordered CLR and Simple Green. If they don't get the job done, I'll accept the damage is permanent, but I'm gonna try everything possible as this piece is my favorite daily driver and I would miss having it in the rotation.

On a side note, would also appreciate suggestions on the best ways to get rid of PBW stains

 

[MoltenTiger]

any idea what can cause soiling such as what I have?

there are rings in the bottom chamber that look like marks from a water flow or scratches from something very hard and heavy going in circular motions. you can see them fairly well if you click to zoom into the picture. but, what messes with my head is that there is a completely clean tiny "dot" (not seen in pic) in the middle of one of these rings that shouldn't be there.... so, far i tried about 5 PBW + boiling water soaks and 2 soaks with 30% vinegar with salt + BBs and hottest setting faucet water running over the piece for 20 minutes with occasional shaking.

I know it's not scratches for sure, as I bought this piece brand new and never put anything that might scratch it inside there. Besides, scratches wouldn't explain a perfectly clean small "dot" in a place where it shouldn't be.

now thinking of getting either CLR or acetone... would also appreciate feedback on which is more likely to be effective, if at all.

It's interesting that there's a distinct line from clear glass to the swirly marked glass where the downstem meets the can.
Could it be possible that this is a borosilicate imperfection that has formed in just that component of the glass? It seems unlikely because of the one clear spot, but it seems weird to me that it's just that one section and doesn't spread to the downstem.
Have you used a brush in that section?

 

[Gn0sis]

It's interesting that there's a distinct line from clear glass to the swirly marked glass where the downstem meets the can.
Could it be possible that this is a borosilicate imperfection that has formed in just that component of the glass? It seems unlikely because of the one clear spot, but it seems weird to me that it's just that one section and doesn't spread to the downstem.
Have you used a brush in that section?

weird indeed. there are a tiny bit of the same marks on the downstem, but just barely

a brush was my earlier question. i have been skimming the web looking for one without any metal parts in it. open to suggestions and would very much appreciate a link to a thin, flexible handle brush I can safely use inside my piece.