Particulates in cannabis vapor

[pakalolo]

Are we talking about accidental combustion here? Because from what I know, there is no such thing as „partial combustion“ except when only part of the material combusts, but then *this part* would be fully combusted. Wouldn't it? Otherwise I'd say you think vaporizing is something like semi-combustion, while they are two very different things. That's a bit confusing to me. :-)

So what are the temps we want to reach with our devices in order to vaporize cannabinoids? And at what temperature does combustion of plant material occur?

That is not what I mean by partial combustion. Perhaps I should call it incomplete combustion, but that's not right either, since really there is no combustion at all. Here I mean that the material is heated enough that it begins to break apart and release particulates. (There might be a better term for this but I don't know it.) Anyway, your understanding requires that some of the material has to be heated to the temperature where combustion starts, but again, by design vaporizers do not normally reach that temperature.

As for the ignition temperature, it is difficult to be exact because cannabis varies considerably in its moisture and oil content. Completely dry cannabis starts to burn somewhere around 230°C (446 funny degrees) but as we all know, many of us vapourize with temperatures set higher than this. Part of the problem here is that you cannot rely on any vapourizer to measure the actual temperature of the herb, and then of course there is the variation in dampness that I just mentioned.

 

[GoldenBud]

@pakalolo incomplete combustion = lack of oxygen, not lack of heat.
It's like when you make a 'camp fire' and the spots which are more hidden from oxygen, will release the most dangerous product - CO.
the "fuel" for the camp fire which are on top, will not produce CO+H2O, but CO2+H2O (Complete Combustion).
Our body transfers the CO faster than O2, our body "likes" to transfer it over oxygen, so tha'ts why it is much dangerous than CO2 - our body send this poison to all over our body.

 

[Tranquility]

Insufficient oxygen leads to producing CO, right?
partial combustion, no enough O2 to produce CO2 (which is healthier than CO)

While my chemistry is really, really, old and I'm not sure I understood it when taking; I don't think carbon monoxide is the result of burning with insufficient oxygen. (I understand it is, literally, less oxygen. But, there are other factors that determine the combination.)

If you look at a single combination, you EITHER have to produce two molecules of CO from 1 O^2 (combined with two carbons) OR will produce one of CO^2 (combined with one carbon).

Technically, you could "burn" CO and create CO^2, since "burn" usually means an oxidation reaction. (Most usually, a chain reaction of oxidation.)

 

[Siebter]

That is not what I mean by partial combustion. Perhaps I should call it incomplete combustion, but that's not right either, since really there is no combustion at all. Here I mean that the material is heated enough that it begins to break apart and release particulates.

Ah okay, I can follow you and that makes sense – as the material gets dryer, its structure will become less stable, thus small particles have an easier time getting pulled off by the draw. And I'm sure that's pretty much the case, as it seems logic and also matches my experiences. Wouldn't call it combustion, though, and also wouldn't call the mix of specks and residue „tar“, but well, that's not important. (Edit: and maybe I should make clear that by „combustion“ I mean a process that involves pyrolysis).

I personally do not like to stir and prefer devices that let me avoid stirring altogether, just because of that idea of me crumbling half vaped material and then inhaling the dusty particles – but mainly because I think it spoils the taste, not because I think inhaling it would harm me. I seriously doubt that those particles matter healthwise. There's so many other kind of particles in the air we inhale every day – then again, some of those particles do actually harm us. But not just *any* kind of particles.

As for the ignition temperature, it is difficult to be exact because cannabis varies considerably in its moisture and oil content.

Very true, and those parameters have an impact on how (fast, thoroughly etc.) the herb will be vaped – but at some point, meaning at the end of a session, those parameters will be pretty much alike I think.

Part of the problem here is that you cannot rely on any vapourizer to measure the actual temperature of the herb, and then of course there is the variation in dampness that I just mentioned.

Yeah, I think it's safe to say that instead of relying on what some display tells us, we should inspect the herb by ourselves and then decide whether we came too close to combustion or not.

(@all: I would like to add that I'm not here to fight or prove anyone wrong (which I can't), but to openly discuss this topic.)

 

[GoldenBud]

@OldNewbie check page 3
https://lchs.lpsd.ca/eteacher_download/2112/34962

 

[pakalolo]

@pakalolo incomplete combustion = lack of oxygen, not lack of heat.
It's like when you make a 'camp fire' and the spots which are more hidden from oxygen, will release the most dangerous product - CO.
the "fuel" for the camp fire which are on top, will not produce CO+H2O, but CO2+H2O (Complete Combustion).
Our body transfers the CO faster than O2, our body "likes" to transfer it over oxygen, so tha'ts why it is much dangerous than CO2 - our body send this poison to all over our body.

Yes, I am well aware of the process. I think I caused some confusion by the terminology I used, but "partial combustion" is the term I've encountered. Probably I didn't help by suggesting "incomplete combustion" instead.

The problem with carbon monoxide is that hemoglobin bonds with it over oxygen. It is toxic because this prevents oxygen from being distributed.

 

[lazylathe]

@Siebter

I always turn my vapes up to the max temp I can handle without coughing.
My ABV comes out a lighter brown but it is very even and does not crumble, it is still fully intact.
I would imagine as you vape, the hotter the loads gets, miniscule particles would be dried and broken off by the air stream and you would be inhaling these microscopic particles. Some would get stuck to the water tool but some would make it all the way through.

I would also imagine that adding water would capture most of these particles, large and small but ultimately some will still get through.

My last pondering was to add a sort of in-line HEPA filter to the mouthpiece of your water tool as the last and final frontier for anything air born.

In general living, working and life we breathe in a lot of particles big and small.
Our lungs have adapted to get rid of new air born pollutants just as it does pollens etc...
I have always known cannabis to be an expectorant, so coughing is a natural process when inhaling cannabis. Almost as if the body knows what to do.

I am currently vaping some amazing Death Star in the EVO through a dry water tool.
Been using this specific WT wet and dry for +-5 years and have not developed any issues with my lungs or a cough of any sorts.

I have however changed one thing with regards to my bowl setups.
Instead of using the nice large mesh screens supplied, I switch them out to a custom cut SS butane extraction screen. It is an extremely fine mesh that stops anything getting into my WT.
I noticed that using the supplied screens my WT would collect a lot of flecks of herb and now thinking further, some would make it into my mouth. Now with the super fine mesh, no more flecks or any herb in the glass. I would also imagine this would mean I am inhaling even smaller particles...
i don't think we will ever win without some sort of final filter to control the particle size exiting the WT.

As for combustion, dry or wet your lungs are going to hate you sooner or later. No matter what you do...

 

[GetLeft]

The heat of vapor is of greater concern to me than the particulates (microscopic or otherwise) that get transmitted via the vaporization process. H2O or another effective means of diffusion whenever possible is my modus operandi.

 

[Alexis]

The heat of vapor is of greater concern to me than the particulates (microscopic or otherwise) that get transmitted via the vaporization process. H2O or another effective means of diffusion whenever possible is my modus operandi.

I can't disagree. However, I have often wondered if that higher level of heat may occasionally have benefits. Colds/viruses love a cold nose, probably chest as well.

So blasting your upper respiratory system with especially hot air could potentially counteract a viral infection Especially in the sinuses.