Oil vs. Flower

BD9

Well-Known Member
I had dinner with a friend tonight and we were talking about vapes. He lives in a medical state and still smokes joints, but mostly uses a pen vape with oil. He said with the oil there is virtually no smell but you still get a taste.
I have been getting what we called 'ditch weed' 25 years ago and it tastes and smells like burning tree leaves so I was asking him about the oil. I told him my biggest concern with oil is how pure it is. What about solvents or other contaminants?
It may be a moot point anyway, as I may not be able to find quality oil but I was wondering what others here have to say about oil vaping. Is it as safe as vaping flower? Is there a taste? Is the maintenance on an oil pen expensive? I've read that you need to buy a new skillet(?) every month.


Any comments will be appreciated! Thanks!
 

CalyxSmokr

Well-Known Member
what is in the oil is a concern. good oil will taste good. Pens are mostly good for when you are out and about. If you are using oil all the time with a pen you will go through cartomizers pretty quick. A skillet (which is not in a pen) will not wear out and is the best way to consume oil at home (other than a vape). A skillet is similar to a titanium nail which you put on a waterpipe. A quartz nail is the standard now and are more popular than titanium. Oil does have less smell than flowers mostly but it does depend on the quality. That is why a pen is good for out of the house - more stealthy.

I have heard people call cartomizers "skillets" but that isn't the most correct term.
Skillet:
hqdefault.jpg

Oil cartomizer:
ego-mega-dual-coil-cartomizer-skillet-ego.jpg
 
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Esmeralda

Well-Known Member
When I originally started looking at vapes, I thought I would do oil or shatter or wax. I dabbed when I lived in Australia as shatter/wax were easy to get. At the dispensaries here (Oregon) they looked at me like I had three heads when I said I would probably dab once I had the equipment. Not sure why? Maybe because I am older (almost 60)? The people at the two dispensaries I frequent seem to think dabbing is akin to shooting heroin or something, I dunno.
Anyway, the more I researched, the less comfortable I felt about oil.
That's part of why I have basically settled on edibles and vaping flower. Now if my FlowerMate would just get here!
 

macbill

Oh No! Mr macbill!!
Staff member
The people at the two dispensaries I frequent seem to think dabbing is akin to shooting heroin or something, I dunno.

Just looking at popular recreational drug magazines and on-line media, your budtenders are sorely uninformed. But it's a new industry, legal-wise, so don't be concerned if canna-clerks know not of which they speak. Just say the word "decarboxylation", and marvel at the blank stare.
 

Esmeralda

Well-Known Member
Just looking at popular recreational drug magazines and on-line media, your budtenders are sorely uninformed. But it's a new industry, legal-wise, so don't be concerned if canna-clerks know not of which they speak. Just say the word "decarboxylation", and marvel at the blank stare.

Lol.
I think it's cause of the gray hair that they give the awe-struck looks.
 

j-bug

Well-Known Member
Lab tested concentrates are quickly becoming my favorite way to medicate. Just a little bit goes such a delightfully long way and it doesn't take as long to get there, at least with how I do it. Small dabs on a bit of hemp fiber in an underdog stem and then through a little bit of water to condition the vapor and not rob too much of the wonderful flavor.

Though to get to bed at night flower seems to provide a more complete effect. The terpenes tie it all together a bit more than in most of the concentrates I've used. Clean inexpensive concentrates tend to not be a precision instrument and are more generalized than the specific effects I'm able to get with flower or with concentrates I've splurged a bit on.

Currently working on finding a middle ground on concentrates for terp content vs cost. Cause the terpiest concentrates provide a wonderful experience. I picked up some higher quality GSC shatter cause my sister was having a rough time and was going to be hanging out and we were absolutely blown away by the flavor and the high. If I had a job that paid just a little bit better I think I might use concentrates for 90% of my cannabis needs. As it is I split my usage 50/50 or so between concentrates and flower. Ofc this isn't talking about how edibles and other products fit into my medication strategy but between flowers and concentrates yeah 50/50ish
 

looney2nz

Research Geek, Mad Scientist
Just looking at popular recreational drug magazines and on-line media, your budtenders are sorely uninformed. But it's a new industry, legal-wise, so don't be concerned if canna-clerks know not of which they speak. Just say the word "decarboxylation", and marvel at the blank stare.

I ended up befriending a few folks at a great local dispensary (that unfortunately was closed by the city, along with all the others), started the ball rolling with a large 'info-bomb' of collected cannabis as medicine info, along with the resources and links... they started learning about decarb, THCa, THCv, CBD, CBDa, CBC, CBG, CBN, Terpenes, solvents, purging, etc. I have followed them to a much farther location, as I know they know what they are talking about (and they always try to treat me well).

My current favorites are the PopNaturals oils...
I've got 4 strains on order and they are trying to get their Grape Ape shatter.
I can use them in either my Herbalaire Elite or the Joyetech rig I recently got.
I frequently find a particular flower, 'grease' the flower with some oil and vape that in the Herbie...
very nice.

I've also played around a bit with some live resin (but rather than flower, this was from a water based hash process), but the prices for some of that stuff are ridiculous :( I think I saw one that was $175 a gram!
 

j-bug

Well-Known Member
I ended up befriending a few folks at a great local dispensary (that unfortunately was closed by the city, along with all the others), started the ball rolling with a large 'info-bomb' of collected cannabis as medicine info, along with the resources and links... they started learning about decarb, THCa, THCv, CBD, CBDa, CBC, CBG, CBN, Terpenes, solvents, purging, etc. I have followed them to a much farther location, as I know they know what they are talking about (and they always try to treat me well).

My current favorites are the PopNaturals oils...
I've got 4 strains on order and they are trying to get their Grape Ape shatter.
I can use them in either my Herbalaire Elite or the Joyetech rig I recently got.
I frequently find a particular flower, 'grease' the flower with some oil and vape that in the Herbie...
very nice.

I've also played around a bit with some live resin (but rather than flower, this was from a water based hash process), but the prices for some of that stuff are ridiculous :( I think I saw one that was $175 a gram!
Yeah I've seen some really ridiculous gram prices lately for some concentrates that I just can't imagine ever paying that for a gram. Saw some super refined hash for around $250 the other day and I just can't believe that's worth it. For one thing who knows how long it'd be sitting on the shelf before you bought it? I like a busy dispensary, even if the hustle and bustle aggravates my anxiety, becuase then I know the product is fresh. I've definitely gone with less expensive flower when the pricier stuff seemed like it had been sitting around for too long, same applies to concentrates imo, since most dispensaries don't have the best long term storage for what's out on the shelves I'd rather avoid stuff that's been on the shelves for too long. Long term storage in back is another story, but most budtenders don't want to or aren't allowed to dip into that without clearing what's already on shelves.
 

Cuthbert J Twillie

Senior High
There is no way to remove all the butane from butane based oils.
Even with bubble hash there is a danger of concentration of pesticides.
Double the risk if you're buying your oil off the street (CO has some standards on pesticide in place).

I strongly recommend doing extensive research before choosing to make oils a steady thing. I personally have gone through a ton of research and have avoided DABbbling with concentrates ever since.
 

herbivore21

Well-Known Member
There is no way to remove all the butane from butane based oils.
Even with bubble hash there is a danger of concentration of pesticides.
Double the risk if you're buying your oil off the street (CO has some standards on pesticide in place).

I strongly recommend doing extensive research before choosing to make oils a steady thing. I personally have gone through a ton of research and have avoided DABbbling with concentrates ever since.
Actually, bubble hash in the scientific literature that exists so far has been found to be a technique that if anything removes, rather than concentrating pesticides!

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jts/40/6/40_797/_pdf check out this study from the Journal of Toxicological Sciences which proposes that the reason for bubble hash being cleaner than the other Californian concentrates that they studied is likely to be the water processing used in bubble hash. Very large quantities of water are run through these extracts while they are processed. Pesticides that are applied to plants are generally water soluble (allowing the water to be mixed with the pesticide for application and also allowing the pesticide to be washed off with water). Your pesticides are largely, if not completely going to end up in the water, rather than in the hash.

To drill right down into the study's findings. The following pesticide chemicals were specifically identified:

Paclobutrazol - the most water soluble of the bunch, will rinse off of a product with water.
Myclobutanil - Less water soluble, but will still wash away with water. Myclobutanil is known to leave the site of application with ambient water runoff in a grow situation, let alone with the much greater agitation of harvested material in much larger amounts of water used for bubble.
Bifethrin - this one is the least water soluble of those detected, but can be dispersed with water.

Of course, resin is not water soluble which is why bubble tek works ;)

If you suspect material is pesticide contaminated - short of just throwing it away - on the best available current information your safest option is actually to make it into bubble. Remember as well that pesticide contamination is a problem with consuming flowers and also remember that we tend to use more flowers to get the same effect as a dab for obvious reasons and that extra exposure from additional usage could balance out any concentration effect on the pesticides in non water-washed concentrates.

Bottom Line IMO: Pesticides are still a major issue across the board in many jurisdictions. More than anything, you need to find growers that refuse to use pesticides and extractors that require pesticide tests on their raw material if you want peace of mind - whatever you want to consume. Flowers or concentrates, we all need to avoid pesticides!

BTW properly stored high end hashes get better with age too, not worse (curing works better with bubble because when done right, you can much more easily prevent mold in long term storage of hash than flowers!), I have some bubble hash that is approaching 4 years of age and I am sure you guys would love to have this in your vape! Of course, if the hash is stored in the wrong conditions - that is another story!

Also very high end (usually fully melt) hashes that cost substantial amounts of money are generally such because the yields are negligible compared to processing the same weight of flowers with a solvent.

I am a processor (but not seller - I make my own personal medicine) of hash of this quality and can safely say that with some varieties (see my avatar for an example of a low-yielde), 1-1.5g yield from 1 oz of flowers is not an unreasonably low yield (5%-10% of total weight is normal return for high quality bubble). Now consider that you'd generally expect to get between 4-10g with a solvent extraction performed on a oz. Now we can understand why we tend to see a major cost increase in the price for such concentrates ;). Also remember that the labor involved in hashmaking is considerably greater (ime easily 5-10 times more time spent doing hands-on processing for bubble) than that involved with solvent processing.

The upshot of these concentrates is that the additional terpene content found in high quality hashes (total terpene concentrations of >20% in some cases!) is only going to be matched by the most bleeding edge of solvent based teks (Extractioneering is a good example of someone who makes concentrates with solvents that can easily match the terpene concentrations found in high quality hash - this is quite a feat!). Your average BHO is only getting ~5% of total terpenes in the errl (flowers, much less again!). There is no comparison.

I do not consume solvent based concentrates because solventless methods produce better medicine, without a properly fitted lab being required to deal with much more dangerous solvents than any of us should be keeping at home. Interestingly, in the study above, there was a greater transfer efficiency of THC (more THC in your system from consumption) for the hashes, vs the other concentrates in the study I quoted above.

Bubble hashes should always be tested for bacteria/fungus etc as a main concern of course. These are considerations that also apply for most food/produce (remember too back to my earlier point on pesticides that we rinse fresh fruit/plant produce with less water for a shorter amount of time than in bubble processing, in no small part to ensure that we do not consume pesticides!).


Hope this clears up some of the points here and @Cuthbert J Twillie - what you are saying about possible concentration of pesticides is definitely an issue with solvent extractions which may be where you had first heard this idea.
 
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looney2nz

Research Geek, Mad Scientist
I know that the cleaning protocols for CO2 process was updated in the last few years due to a study showing an accumulation of toxic byproducts under certain conditions.

Curious what technique you use to store your high end hash.

Personally I don't want to deal with any of the damn chemical toxins, give me a 'Clean Green' certified organic grow anyday.

WA state's edict that magically changes 200 pesticides and fungicides into 'organic' notwithstanding.
 

herbivore21

Well-Known Member
I know that the cleaning protocols for CO2 process was updated in the last few years due to a study showing an accumulation of toxic byproducts under certain conditions.

Curious what technique you use to store your high end hash.

Personally I don't want to deal with any of the damn chemical toxins, give me a 'Clean Green' certified organic grow anyday.

WA state's edict that magically changes 200 pesticides and fungicides into 'organic' notwithstanding.
Definitely a good question on storage man, I've experimented with so many different ways of storing hash. There are a few approaches I take.

Glass is best obviously. However, one thing we all know about glass is that sticky resin will stick to it if there is much humidity/heat present. You need to keep your hash in a cool, dry, dark place.

I have watched hash become enmeshed with layers of parchment in humid conditions and layers of parchment can and do IME delaminate when moist hash is removed from the parchment, becoming one with the hash! For this reason, I avoid parchment.

Another thing I do is hand pressing my hash after drying into temple balls. As all of my hash is 4 star or greater, this is feasible for all of my product (more contaminant in your hash may result in a product that cannot easily be pressed together into a ball without a lot of heat). What is helpful with temple balls is that if you really work the outer layer of resin into a solid pressed layer with your hands (USE GLOVES), you tend to find the outer layer will solidify in cold conditions (it will be more or less sticky in higher or lower humidity and some varieties are just stickier than others).

The goal is not necessarily to press all of the material, only the outer layer of the ball to form a solid layer of resin which can harden and protect the inner resin from degradation (I can't stress this enough - dry that shit properly, if you make a temple ball like this with material that wasn't dried right; enjoy that mold ball when you go back to it after what you thought was a 'cure'). Then I will store this in a mason jar in a temp/humidity controlled space.

Ideally you want a thermoelectric fridge customized with adsorbents etc to keep the humidity low (<55% RH) as well as temp. Compressor based fridges (which are much cheaper and more common, they can be used in many more different kinds of environments) do some weird shit with moisture and I do not recommend them so much. Otherwise, a position low to the ground (less heat) in a dry, dark place will be better than nothing.

UV glass is helpful here to further prevent degradation from light.

For very sticky resins; I find that these are best hand pressed into a temple ball as above, allowed to solidify as much as possible in a cool dry place and then the ball is placed inside a parchment envelope (ONLY AFTER VERY THOROUGH DRYING - WATER + HASH + PARCHMENT = DISASTER) in a sealed mason jar. Monitor the humidity and temperature of any processing/storage spaces with external, reliable and properly calibrated hygrometers/thermometers and focus on keeping things at or below 65f or so and humidity below 55% RH (lower is quite alright, higher risks mold).

Also man, remember that the word organic has no singular definition in international marketing lingo and the term on the label alone is not sufficient to decide if something is safe for human consumption. One must always ask for the specific definition of 'organic' being applied to products so-labelled.

For example, one well known organic compound is benzene (that carcinogen of cigarette smoke infamy). Mix that into a hippy's kambucha and see what they think lol

Regardless man, I couldn't agree with you more that it is best to just find safely grown flowers in the first place. Pesticides ain't nothing to single out concentrates over! ;)
 
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looney2nz

Research Geek, Mad Scientist
Definitely a good question on storage man, I've experimented with so many different ways of storing hash. There are a few approaches I take.

Glass is best obviously. However, one thing we all know about glass is that sticky resin will stick to it if there is much humidity/heat present. You need to keep your hash in a cool, dry, dark place.

I have watched hash become enmeshed with layers of parchment in humid conditions and layers of parchment can and do IME delaminate when moist hash is removed from the parchment, becoming one with the hash! For this reason, I avoid parchment.

Another thing I do is hand pressing my hash after drying into temple balls. As all of my hash is 4 star or greater, this is feasible for all of my product (more contaminant in your hash may result in a product that cannot easily be pressed together into a ball without a lot of heat). What is helpful with temple balls is that if you really work the outer layer of resin into a solid pressed layer with your hands (USE GLOVES), you tend to find the outer layer will solidify in cold conditions (it will be more or less sticky in higher or lower humidity and some varieties are just stickier than others).

The goal is not necessarily to press all of the material, only the outer layer of the ball to form a solid layer of resin which can harden and protect the inner resin from degradation (I can't stress this enough - dry that shit properly, if you make a temple ball like this with material that wasn't dried right; enjoy that mold ball when you go back to it after what you thought was a 'cure'). Then I will store this in a mason jar in a temp/humidity controlled space.

Ideally you want a thermoelectric fridge customized with adsorbents etc to keep the humidity low (<55% RH) as well as temp. Compressor based fridges (which are much cheaper and more common, they can be used in many more different kinds of environments) do some weird shit with moisture and I do not recommend them so much. Otherwise, a position low to the ground (less heat) in a dry, dark place will be better than nothing.

UV glass is helpful here to further prevent degradation from light.

For very sticky resins; I find that these are best hand pressed into a temple ball as above, allowed to solidify as much as possible in a cool dry place and then the ball is placed inside a parchment envelope (ONLY AFTER VERY THOROUGH DRYING - WATER + HASH + PARCHMENT = DISASTER) in a sealed mason jar. Monitor the humidity and temperature of any processing/storage spaces with external, reliable and properly calibrated hygroscopes/thermometers and focus on keeping things at or below 65f or so and humidity below 55% RH (lower is quite alright, higher risks mold).

Also man, remember that the word organic has no singular definition in international marketing lingo and the term on the label alone is not sufficient to decide if something is safe for human consumption. One must always ask for the specific definition of 'organic' being applied to products so-labelled.

For example, one well known organic compound is benzene (that carcinogen of cigarette smoke infamy). Mix that into a hippy's kambucha and see what they think lol

Regardless man, I couldn't agree with you more that it is best to just find safely grown flowers in the first place. Pesticides ain't nothing to single out concentrates over! ;)

Temple Balls... my very 1st experience with hash, Nepalese Temple Balls. So, yeah, I totally get you :)

Wondering if a food grade silicone pouch would work better over the long haul than parchment?

'Clean Green' certified organic you can actually read up on, it's from Chris Van Hook... lemme find the link.... http://www.cleangreencert.org/about-us/
 

herbivore21

Well-Known Member
Temple Balls... my very 1st experience with hash, Nepalese Temple Balls. So, yeah, I totally get you :)

Wondering if a food grade silicone pouch would work better over the long haul than parchment?

'Clean Green' certified organic you can actually read up on, it's from Chris Van Hook... lemme find the link.... http://www.cleangreencert.org/about-us/
I don't use silicone containers or mats as a rule with concentrates ;) I am against silicone in my vapor paths too. I find that silicone can do some strange things with some of my concentrates (one that I saw more than a few times was these weird white translucent flecks after short term storage starting to appear in my errl where the concentrate touched the surface of the silicone container) and I only ever used to use Oil Slick or NoGoo containers.

Even parchment is something I avoid as in most cases I get suitably hard temple balls and glass is all I need. I use slick wrap, not cheap parchment as I find it easier to distinguish if any strange reaction is happening with the opaque white finish but I prefer not using anything but glass and in an ideally controlled environment, polymers and really anything but glass could be done away with even for the stickiest resins! :D
 

looney2nz

Research Geek, Mad Scientist
I don't use silicone containers or mats as a rule with concentrates ;) I am against silicone in my vapor paths too. I find that silicone can do some strange things with some of my concentrates (one that I saw more than a few times was these weird white translucent flecks after short term storage starting to appear in my errl where the concentrate touched the surface of the silicone container) and I only ever used to use Oil Slick or NoGoo containers.

Even parchment is something I avoid as in most cases I get suitably hard temple balls and glass is all I need. I use slick wrap, not cheap parchment as I find it easier to distinguish if any strange reaction is happening with the opaque white finish but I prefer not using anything but glass and in an ideally controlled environment, polymers and really anything but glass could be done away with even for the stickiest resins! :D

I was afraid of that (not that much experience with the silicone mats). So GLASS it is!
 
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