Moderation and sleep quality

[swolisen]

Hello guys. Recently I've been having some sleep problems.

On the days I don't consume cannabis I wake up around 20-30 times per night, and I feel sluggish/low energy after getting up. I consume roughly 0,03g of weed combined with 0,03g of CBD around 2-4 days per week (mostly on the weekends). Usually around 18:00, and I go to bed around 23:00. It seems to me that on the days I consume, I sleep like a rock throughout most of the night, and wake up relatively rested, but on the days I don't consume I end up tossing and turning a lot, and end up needing a mid-day nap.

This to me feels like some form of withdrawal, I am however not in full withdrawal, with the sweats and vivid dreams, as I have experienced that before. But I'm worried that the poor sleep is due to cannabis still being in my system.

I don't consume any caffeine, and I try to get 8-9 hours of sleep per night. I exercise multiple times per week and before bed I do some form of yoga/stretching to relax and I find that falling asleep is no problem, it's just that I'm having trouble staying asleep.

Cannabis works wonderfully for me and I would love to find a way that I can still consume it a few times per week, without having to sacrifice my sleep quality. One option is to consume it every day, but I have tried that in the past and noticed that my overall life quality gets worse over time. Another option is to consume it maybe 1-2 times per week, but as I said, I really love cannabis, and with a lot of free time on my hand, I would really like to consume it at least 2-4 times per week.

Is there anybody out there that has experienced the same problems? How have you gone about it? Thank you in advance

 

[Photonic]

From what I've read (and experienced myself to some degree), this is a common temporary side effect for many.

 

[GoldenBud]

Hello,

what happen "Recently" ? are you recovering from another drug? how did the problems started? did you use THC everyday and stopped?
if nothing really happened, some questions please:

Have you tried Anaerobic training? like lifting heavy weights, doing 6-8 reps per set? It helped me and I recommend it
Have you tried Chamomile tea, or Mentha tea?
Do you eat veggies/fruits? Do you consume enough fibers?
Did you do a blood test lately? is everything alright? like, how's your Vitamin D levels?


Also I'd recommend taking Omega 3 pills. it helps releasing Serotonin

 

[stuey]

I dont know anything first hand but maybe just try CBD only on days off.. perhaps an oil.

 

[swolisen]

Hello,

what happen "Recently" ? are you recovering from another drug? how did the problems started? did you use THC everyday and stopped?
if nothing really happened, some questions please:

Have you tried Anaerobic training? like lifting heavy weights, doing 6-8 reps per set? It helped me and I recommend it
Have you tried Chamomile tea, or Mentha tea?
Do you eat veggies/fruits? Do you consume enough fibers?
Did you do a blood test lately? is everything alright? like, how's your Vitamin D levels?


Also I'd recommend taking Omega 3 pills. it helps releasing Serotonin

Hi!

Well now that I think about it it definitely isn't a "recent" problem, I've certainly experienced it before on days that I do not consume cannabis. I've "moderated" my cannabis use during the last 6 months, which was started by a 3 week break, and continued by only vaping 2-4 times per week, instead of basically every day use. Before these 6 months I have consumed cannabis for 3 years, maybe 1 year of near-daily use, with 0.03-0.10g per day. (1-2 half bowls of dynavap, sometimes mixed with cbd)

The past 6 months have been up and down, but it was only for the past 2 months I stopped consuming caffeine. That improved my sleep a lot, especially my ability to fall asleep. However I've noticed during these 2 months that the tossing and turning doesn't really go away, especially on days that I don't consume.

Yes I've trained regularly for the past 10 years, was into powerlifting for a bit so I've trained heavily as well.
Yes, I drink chamomille/lavender tea every evening after the yoga session.
I eat fruit every day, at least 100g of carbs from it, so I definitely think I get enough fibers/vitamin c from them
I haven't had any blood tests lately, I'm healthy otherwise and I'm only 22 so I don't feel like anything is way off, I maintain a nutrient rich diet. But it might be worth getting one done just to be sure. I eat d-vitamin supplements and try to spend at least 30 minutes in the sun every day.

I've tried Omega 3 pills before but I never really noticed a difference, I also consume plenty of eggs/meat/liver so I should be good on that part.

 

[swolisen]

I dont know anything first hand but maybe just try CBD only on days off.. perhaps an oil.

I actually vape cbd almost every day off, but I don't really notice a big difference on my sleep, it helps me fall asleep, but it feels like it wears off pretty quickly. Perhaps I should try making an oil, I'll report back in case I do

 

[swolisen]

From what I've read (and experienced myself to some degree), this is a common temporary side effect for many.

Have you found out how long it takes for the temporary side effect to go away? Or how to avoid it?

 

[darbarikanada]

sorry about your sleep issue!

when patients tell doctors about symptoms they have, doctors usually ask if there've been lifestyle changes. you noticed a correlation between cannabis and sleep issues, and, given that it's the main change in your lifestyle, it's probably causation. it may not be full-on withdrawal, with sweats and all, but it sounds like your body's come to rely on cannabis to sleep well. if I were in your predicament, I'd do an experiment: try to not use cannabis for at least a couple weeks (but I suspect that it could take 2-3 months for your body's biorhythms to reset). if your sleep returns to normal after a 'tea break', you'll have to decide if poor sleep is a cost you're willing to tolerate if you want to continue using cannabis.

I'm not sure what role the endocannabinoid system plays in sleep regulation (it does a lot of things relating to homeostasis so I'm guessing it plays a part), but cannabis use reduces the number of cannabinoid receptors, so that could be the mechanism at play here. maybe you're not getting the (calming) endocannabinoids your body needs to not keep waking up because you don't have enough receptors. the good news is that the number of receptors recovers when you stop consuming cannabis.

 

[GoldenBud]

you can ask your doctor for "sleep lab" so professional experts will check your sleep quality. but, if it occurs only when you don't use THC.......... you can understand..... that maybe you need to get off THC for few months or so... I stopped using THC 7 months ago. the withdrawals were awful and I felt bad for 30-40 days but it gets better after it. yes i did have headaches up to day 90 (not every day). but i feel much better now and sleep much better too. try getting off THC for couple months and see if it improves...

ask your doctor about it, but you understand the picture i think....

 

[swolisen]

sorry about your sleep issue!

when patients tell doctors about symptoms they have, doctors usually ask if there've been lifestyle changes. you noticed a correlation between cannabis and sleep issues, and, given that it's the main change in your lifestyle, it's probably causation. it may not be full-on withdrawal, with sweats and all, but it sounds like your body's come to rely on cannabis to sleep well. if I were in your predicament, I'd do an experiment: try to not use cannabis for at least a couple weeks (but I suspect that it could take 2-3 months for your body's biorhythms to reset). if your sleep returns to normal after a 'tea break', you'll have to decide if poor sleep is a cost you're willing to tolerate if you want to continue using cannabis.

I'm not sure what role the endocannabinoid system plays in sleep regulation (it does a lot of things relating to homeostasis so I'm guessing it plays a part), but cannabis use reduces the number of cannabinoid receptors, so that could be the mechanism at play here. maybe you're not getting the (calming) endocannabinoids your body needs to not keep waking up because you don't have enough receptors. the good news is that the number of receptors recovers when you stop consuming cannabis.

Thank you for the reply, I will try doing a prolonged break and evaluate after that!

 

[swolisen]

you can ask your doctor for "sleep lab" so professional experts will check your sleep quality. but, if it occurs only when you don't use THC.......... you can understand..... that maybe you need to get off THC for few months or so... I stopped using THC 7 months ago. the withdrawals were awful and I felt bad for 30-40 days but it gets better after it. yes i did have headaches up to day 90 (not every day). but i feel much better now and sleep much better too. try getting off THC for couple months and see if it improves...

ask your doctor about it, but you understand the picture i think....

Yes I understand, I will try a prolonged break

 

[Curious Gorilla]

I actually vape cbd almost every day off, but I don't really notice a big difference on my sleep, it helps me fall asleep, but it feels like it wears off pretty quickly. Perhaps I should try making an oil, I'll report back in case I do

I found when i have had high CBD flowers it is far more 'racey' than i expected. didnt help with sleep, and wasnt that relaxing, so if you are using CBD on its own often it may be part of the issue.
I find if there is more than a 3 to 1 ratio THC to CBD, it doesnt agree with Me.
Although not vaping ( i was smoking joints last time i had CBD weed, it was over 2 years ago). CBD may act a little differntly when vaped?
I have also watched people take CBD oral spray after smoking thc cannabis, and it actualy made them more agitated.
CBD does not always operate in the way people think, and different people will react differently to various Cannabinoids, and terpenes.
Sounds daft but you could try hot milk and a shot of brandy at bedtime.
Good Sleep is as vital as Food,Water and Air. I miss it.
Just woke up at 3AM. tHANK fUCK FOR fUCKcOMBUSTION. Saviour of the Sleepless Stoner.

 

[bhasma]

0.03g three times a week doesn't sound like much to me, but everyone is different. And I think counting receptors requires a post mortem examination, but PET scans have shown a reduced availability in the brain of heavy and moderate users. The endocannabinoid receptors have been shown to normalise after two days of abstinence, with continued improvement over the next four weeks. If you want to exclude cannabis as a possible cause of your restless sleep then taking a break for a month should answer the question.

 

[Curious Gorilla]

It's may also be worth looking at any long term medication You take, if You take any, as some Pharmacuitical Drugs can seriously interfere with sleep in a major way. This can vary from individual Medication to individual Person. Or can be interactions between medications, including Cannabis interacting with other Medications.

 

[dman28]

What should be mentioned as well is the important role of gut brain axis and a high quality diet has in improving sleep.

It has been proven that if you look directly at the blue light at sun rise or sun set helps to reset your bodies internal clock for sleep.

 

[GoldenBud]

he said he was having problems only when he didn't use cannabis....

 

[Curious Gorilla]

I'm healthy otherwise and I'm only 22

Damn im jelous. wish i was still 22.
There are still physiological/phycological changes that can continue from teenage years into early 30s.
This could be a cause, had similar issues when younger, before i even started smoking Cannabis (not till 28 years old).

"Young adulthood refers to individuals between adolescence and middle age. Despite fewer physical and cognitive changes occurring than previously seen during adolescence, gradual transitions in physical and cognitive development continue throughout the 20s and 30s. Physical and biological factors become evident through changes in appearance, strength, joints, bones, lung and heart functioning, as well as sexuality. Cognitive health habits during early adulthood correlate with later life memory and brain functioning. (PsycInfo Database Record (c) 2022 APA, all rights reserved)"

APA PsycNet

psycnet.apa.org

a longer read https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/metamorphosis/202107/the-transition-adolescence-adulthood

I also consume plenty of eggs/meat/liver

Have You considered reducing these? Too much protien in your diet can have an effect.

Going full vegetarian would require taking b supplements plus a few other things to make up, but it could also be an option.
I cant fast myself, but have you considered Day time fasting for a few days? I dont believe doing it for long periods of time is good, or for more than daylight hours, but i know many people who feel they benefited.

Something else worth trying is to listen to gentle rain storm recordings.
It is close to listening to white noise, but more natural sounding. Pick one that goes on for hours or loop it so it is still playing while your asleep.

If you want to exclude cannabis as a possible cause of your restless sleep then taking a break for a month should answer the question.

Much as I would hate to do it myself, Bhasma is correct.
It is the only way to know if its Cannabis If it is the only thing you change. And dont replace it with a pharmacuitical painkiller..
To work out what individual thing is causing an effect, You have to change ONE factor at a time.

 

[swolisen]

Thanks for all the replies guys. I'm starting a t-break now until I feel that I can sleep better. I'll also try to dial in all the other factors that could contribute to my poor sleep. Generally I sleep well when I'm a week+ into a t-break, but like I stated in the OP I would love to find out if there is a way to still consume cannabis without it affecting my sleep quality. After the break I will begin by consuming it 1x a week etc and try to find the sweet spot (if there is one), otherwise I'll just have to save it for special occasions, as I feel like a zombie without proper sleep.

Yesterday I had a wonderful introspective experience during my last indulgence before my break, and slept like a baby afterwards, so it always feels kind of sad to start a t-break after an evening like that, but I have to remind myself that she will not be gone forever

 

[tashian]

Take some natural form of melatonin complex, plenty available. Avoid screens and blue light at night. Control your room temperature,we need colder temperatures to sleep and summer can be a dog in that regard... Sleep after canna gives a false sensation of good sleep but if you have any means to measure ( even some good smart watches ) you will see a much limited deep sleep state when on canna effect...