lwien
Well-Known Member
............make music and improvise? Check it out:
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/tech/2010/04/28/marimba.robot.cnn?hpt=C2
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/tech/2010/04/28/marimba.robot.cnn?hpt=C2
Marimba-playing robot learns and improvises
- Thread starter lwien
- Start date
SkeletonLips
Mr.
I need about 3 of those things. I'd have one hell of a live show. That is awesome. Very inspiring. I'd like to see what comes of this, as I love how we are using technology to further our understanding of music. I'd like to see what new forms of musical expression will be discovered by this relationship of technology and emotional human minds working together.
Howie Feltersnatch
Scalawag
I love the way its head bobs and looks around at the other musicians to see what they are doing.
momofthegoons
vapor accessory addict
I like how it blinks it's "eye." 
Pretty cool concept.
Pretty cool concept.
Purple-Days
Well-Known Member
Oh, it's so cute and shiny. And his little head makes 'him' so.... (anthropomorphic). Bahhhh!
Come on... Music as we know it is based on 'music theory' and is basically a mathematical algorithm. So, sure it might stay in key or on theme and in time. But improvise? I didn't hear any evidence beyond the ability to hit random notes that stayed within set parameters. Improvisation is not random notes, a chimp can do that, and if you eliminate the sour notes (mathematically, for this machine) the equivalent of removing the sour keys from a piano I would rather hear what a chimp produces.
All that effort and probably a big pile of government grant money (your taxes) to make a Turk.
We are cutting musical education money from children in school and giving it to this sort of 'art'. Double Bahhh!
lwien
Well-Known Member
Ya know Tom, I remember musicians saying the same things when the first Moog was introduced. Electronic music? Bahhhh...............
To me, this is nothing more than the continuing experimentation and learning of robotics and artificial intelligence. One of the main points that was made in the vid was how the robot could inspire improvisation in a way that no human could. Not that that inspiration would be better than that sparked by another human, but different. Just the thought of artificial intelligence providing a catalyst for improvisation is, to me, kind of mind blowing (pardon the play on words). I think it's kinda neat.
I also think that it's a sin to cut any of the arts, including music, from the public school curriculum but I do think that there are many, MANY other contributing factors that make that happen other than programs such as this.
And then, we get down to the real basic question of, "What is Music ?" , other than the classic definition of "sound through time".
The last thing I thought when I posted this, was that this vid would spark debate, but it could, and this debate could prove pretty interesting.
To me, this is nothing more than the continuing experimentation and learning of robotics and artificial intelligence. One of the main points that was made in the vid was how the robot could inspire improvisation in a way that no human could. Not that that inspiration would be better than that sparked by another human, but different. Just the thought of artificial intelligence providing a catalyst for improvisation is, to me, kind of mind blowing (pardon the play on words). I think it's kinda neat.
I also think that it's a sin to cut any of the arts, including music, from the public school curriculum but I do think that there are many, MANY other contributing factors that make that happen other than programs such as this.
And then, we get down to the real basic question of, "What is Music ?" , other than the classic definition of "sound through time".
The last thing I thought when I posted this, was that this vid would spark debate, but it could, and this debate could prove pretty interesting.
Purple-Days
Well-Known Member
Artificial intelligence? Bahhh!
You play a moog, it is synthetic sound, played and directed and created by a human mind.
I have a synth upstairs, it is not a percussion instrument like a piano, though it can sound like one, and has a keyboard like one, it makes synthetic sounds, but I play it.
This thing is just a pretty computer, not 'artificial intelligence'. And as a musician I see (and hear) nothing inspiring. Just a bunch of circuits and a salesman.
Now, how the hell, is staring at a robot inspiring? Watch musicians on stage (who are off into the improv zone) they intently watch each other for very subtle clues that non musicians would hardly notice. This thing has none of that and without that then you may as well listen to it as a digital sample (no shiny robot) and say the computer inspired me. But really it was a computer program and computer programmer. See, The Turk. Wizard of Oz stuff, man behind the curtain.
Fun to watch? Sure, but give me the monkey. More entertaining.
You play a moog, it is synthetic sound, played and directed and created by a human mind.
I have a synth upstairs, it is not a percussion instrument like a piano, though it can sound like one, and has a keyboard like one, it makes synthetic sounds, but I play it.
This thing is just a pretty computer, not 'artificial intelligence'. And as a musician I see (and hear) nothing inspiring. Just a bunch of circuits and a salesman.
Now, how the hell, is staring at a robot inspiring? Watch musicians on stage (who are off into the improv zone) they intently watch each other for very subtle clues that non musicians would hardly notice. This thing has none of that and without that then you may as well listen to it as a digital sample (no shiny robot) and say the computer inspired me. But really it was a computer program and computer programmer. See, The Turk. Wizard of Oz stuff, man behind the curtain.
Fun to watch? Sure, but give me the monkey. More entertaining.
Purple-Days
Well-Known Member
That is my point about improvisation.
Improvisation vs. Random numbers generated within a set of pre-defined patterns or mathematical formulae.
Improv is nurtured, not programmed.
And Improvisation can be one monkey two sticks (or even one) on a 5 gallon pail, but the monkey must conceptualize the sound and anticipate what 'aesthetic quality' it will have before it is produced, based on value judgements made through trial and error over many sessions.
I have yet to see any example of artificial intelligence, in any field. Let alone coming out of some college music department.
I read a bit of Heinlein and Asimov and Bradbury etc. Many of their thoughts on the subject influence mine. RH did a few 'human mind' in computer form works. One was a central control computer on the Moon that had a sense of humor. You can't program humor or improvisation (McGuyverism) into a silicon chip. When they can, I will quit trying to learn Mozart to develop my range and learn Big Blue and a bunch of 0s and 1s.
Improvisation vs. Random numbers generated within a set of pre-defined patterns or mathematical formulae.
Improv is nurtured, not programmed.
And Improvisation can be one monkey two sticks (or even one) on a 5 gallon pail, but the monkey must conceptualize the sound and anticipate what 'aesthetic quality' it will have before it is produced, based on value judgements made through trial and error over many sessions.
I have yet to see any example of artificial intelligence, in any field. Let alone coming out of some college music department.
I read a bit of Heinlein and Asimov and Bradbury etc. Many of their thoughts on the subject influence mine. RH did a few 'human mind' in computer form works. One was a central control computer on the Moon that had a sense of humor. You can't program humor or improvisation (McGuyverism) into a silicon chip. When they can, I will quit trying to learn Mozart to develop my range and learn Big Blue and a bunch of 0s and 1s.
lwien
Well-Known Member
Tom, I'm less than a novice in all of this, and I really don't have anything to add any validity to my comments on this, but it seems to me that AI, if not today, than someday, would have the ability to learn from it's experiences, and as you say, "..make value judgments through trial and error over many sessions.", and I do believe that it's programs like what is happening in this college music department that furthers the studies in this area to possibly make what I am talking about here a reality.
Purple-Days
Well-Known Member
A music box is a good analogy. But a jack in the box with bobbing head comes to mind.
Lwein, 'aesthetic judgement'? I hate Picasso, and many other modern artists. If a computer judges it as 'pleasing', who programmed the thing? Sorry I think electrons can't make up their mind without 'original sin' (source programming).
And if they do become sentient, we are in big ass trouble. We are not all that attractive and a hazard to our own well being. Many stories about that, but if you can extrapolate to 'artificial intelligence' then you can go the rest of the way, we are doomed. But I think not.
Gray Goo.
Lwein, 'aesthetic judgement'? I hate Picasso, and many other modern artists. If a computer judges it as 'pleasing', who programmed the thing? Sorry I think electrons can't make up their mind without 'original sin' (source programming).
And if they do become sentient, we are in big ass trouble. We are not all that attractive and a hazard to our own well being. Many stories about that, but if you can extrapolate to 'artificial intelligence' then you can go the rest of the way, we are doomed. But I think not.
Gray Goo.
Howie Feltersnatch
Scalawag
Agree with Tom, it's all about the "wetware."
True sentience in machines would require a quantum leap in technology and I don't imagine that will happen in my children's lifetime. My grandchildren's? Could be, but thank god for Isaac's Laws. We'd damn well better really have the failsafes nailed down beforehand.
I kind of see Shimon as a "smart synthesizer." But they do claim "he" can tell when the bass player is starting a solo and holds back for a bit.
I didn't see that in any of the videos I found so I call shenanigans. I fronted for a couple of bands in the 70s and 80s and I don't believe musical intuition or the ability to read another musician can be programmed ... yet.
True sentience in machines would require a quantum leap in technology and I don't imagine that will happen in my children's lifetime. My grandchildren's? Could be, but thank god for Isaac's Laws. We'd damn well better really have the failsafes nailed down beforehand.
I kind of see Shimon as a "smart synthesizer." But they do claim "he" can tell when the bass player is starting a solo and holds back for a bit.
I didn't see that in any of the videos I found so I call shenanigans. I fronted for a couple of bands in the 70s and 80s and I don't believe musical intuition or the ability to read another musician can be programmed ... yet.
Purple-Days
Well-Known Member
Funny, the bass player is playing from sheet of music. :/ Sorta seems there is a script.
Anyway I ran across something that robots can do that I have never seen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bI06lujiD7E&feature=player_embedded
I'm not sure what the applications would be, but certainly more useful than this waldo.
And funny that someone would want 'inspiration' from a robot when there are so damn many talented human musicians. I was driving Pammy nuts a couple of nights ago listening to Throat Singing, from Mongolia, Siberia and Tuva.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYqrWRiS204&feature=related
My favorite
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY1pcEtHI_w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY_5eOFBOys&feature=related
Some great scenery
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XGUCZQgNAg&feature=related
Ensemble
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wHbIWH_NGc&NR=1&feature=fvwp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M3YFK3sJ54&feature=related
Wow!
And here it is broken down...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNVrmW0VL2I&feature=related
Double wow!
NO computer is going to inspire me like these people.
I listen to some strange stuff.
Anyway I ran across something that robots can do that I have never seen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bI06lujiD7E&feature=player_embedded
I'm not sure what the applications would be, but certainly more useful than this waldo.
And funny that someone would want 'inspiration' from a robot when there are so damn many talented human musicians. I was driving Pammy nuts a couple of nights ago listening to Throat Singing, from Mongolia, Siberia and Tuva.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYqrWRiS204&feature=related
My favorite
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY1pcEtHI_w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY_5eOFBOys&feature=related
Some great scenery
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XGUCZQgNAg&feature=related
Ensemble
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wHbIWH_NGc&NR=1&feature=fvwp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M3YFK3sJ54&feature=related
Wow!
And here it is broken down...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNVrmW0VL2I&feature=related
Double wow!
NO computer is going to inspire me like these people.
I listen to some strange stuff.
SkeletonLips
Mr.
I'm not amazed at the robot. I'm amazed at the human intelligence it took to create the robot. I would never listen to anything completely robot created (whatever that means), because I believe there is no substitute for human emotion, which in my mind plays the biggest part in music. The mathematical part of music just makes it easier for us to follow. This robot, as I see it, is just a tool to explore music in a way that we aren't really able to when playing with other people. I tend to find musical inspiration in just about anything, if not everything. Maybe I'm just crazy.
Absolutely. Would I walk across the street to see it? You betcha. I'm sure I wouldn't own a robot inspired album, but I'd give a listen. Just as I took the time to see the Spreckles Pipe Organ in Balboa Park (largest - every Sun, rain or shine - its cool), but I have no pipe organ treasures in my collection. I'd do it 'cause its interesting to me to see different facets of music interpretation.SkeletonLips said:
Still, I think my music box analogy applies here. I don't have any music box albums playing fragment of Tchaikovsky hits or whatever, but I like to see music boxes. Don't own any.
lwien
Well-Known Member
momofthegoons
vapor accessory addict
lwien, you are on a roll today. I had just gotten totally ripped before logging on. Wow. When it first started, I thought it was sort of creepy looking. Cool, but skeleton like. About 1 1/2 min into it, I realized I was totally mesmerized and the "fingers" had turned birdlike. You've got to wonder what kind of beautiful mind thought this one up. I had never heard of Animusic before. Thanks for sharing.
Howie Feltersnatch
Scalawag
You said it mom - when I first saw this a few years back I was ripped and watched it over and over and over. Except to me the "fingers" look just like the legs of a snow crab (delicious!).momofthegoons said:
The complete video is 7 different pieces all with different "living instruments" starring. In-freaking-credible. Unfortunately not streaming on NetFlix yet but you can find a torrent of it if you look. It's called "Animusic: A Computer Animation Video Album."
Looks like Animusic has its own youtube channel, ftw. Lots of stuff I hadn't seen.