Marijuana and Vaporization Temperatures

[vtac]

Cross posting this from the Extreme thread:

Temperature=
The following is an excerpt from a book by Ed Rosenthal.
"THC's boiling point is 393F (200C) but active vapors form at almost 100 degrees lower. MJ's active components turn to vapor between 260 -392 degrees F (126 - 200C). The ideal temperature for vaporization is subject to debate, but is usually suggested in the range 330-375 degrees F (165 - 190C). Smoke begins to form at temperatures over 360 degrees F (182C). When the temp goes over the 400 degree F (204C) mark, tars and other undesirable compounds such as benzene and dioxins are released. When ignited the temperature soars to 600 degrees or higher."

Hmmm, that's interesting. Am I interpreting this correctly?

It's saying THC's boiling point is 200C, but vapors from MJ's "active ingredients" can form as low as 126C. Also, that smoke begins to form at 182C+ before THC's boiling point, but the "bad smoke" starts to form at 315C+

Thanks for sharing, what book is it from?

Things like this really make we wish I had scientist to explain exactly how vaporization works with MJ. :/

This is still a topic that begs for better answers. There are tons of variables (elevation above sea level/air pressure/quality of strain/moisture content, ad nauseam) and it's kind of hard to test without a lab and PhD.

There are a bunch of numbers out there on the web, I'm not going to dig through them all right now, but they seem to be all over the place. Also, the digital/analog(are there any?) temp displays on consumer vaporizers do not provide the level of accuracy/amount of data required for testing, perhaps adding to the confusion and misinformation.

If the above quote is true, it validates my thinking (at least to myself) that lighter vapor is indeed better for the highly health conscious. It also makes one wonder what exactly is in the vapor, and how much the concentrations are changing at different temperatures.



Anyone have any thoughts? I suppose we probably won't see any real research on this any time soon.

 

[rosstaman]

The quote came from the book: Ask Ed: Marijuana Gold-Trash to Stash.
The author Ed Rosenthal covers how to make honey oil, hash, etc from the trimmings and leftovers that in most cases gets thrown away. Very informative book??HIGHLY? recommended.

Obviously, these are guidelines that have some variation depending on the variables of the particular herb. And we each have our own preferences. If I have really fragrant buds, I prefer to enjoy its flavor for a longer period of time, so I keep the Extreme around 225. It?s tantamount to enjoying a fine 10-year old cabernet sauvignon. One wouldn?t want to drink or gulp a fine wine, instead you gently sip it and enjoy the subtle nuances within its flavor. Good bud should be treated the same way.

But if I want a quick and heavy hit, I set it around 275. Anything above that and it starts tasting burnt, and the vapor looks more like smoke than vapor. And once it?s burnt, it?s gone. But if you don?t burn or scorch it, it?ll last a lot longer and you get a lot more out of it.

 

[tokinGLX]

here we have the boiling points of the cannabinoids
http://www.omma1998.org/McPartland-Russo-JCANT 1(3-4)-2001.pdf

like mentioned tho, the problem with many of the digi vapes is that they do not display the temp AT THE BOWL, the best they can do is give an estimated temp at that spot.

 

[rosstaman]

Thanks tokinGLX for the link. Very informative.

This quote was taken from the above link that tokinGLX provided.

"Vaporizers are smoking apparati that heat cannabis to 185C
(365F), which vaporizes THC but is below the ignition point of combustible
plant material. Vaporized cannabis emits a thin gray vapor, whereas combusted
cannabis produces a thick smoke. Thus, vaporizers deliver a better cannabinoid-
to-tar ratio than cigarettes or water pipes (Gieringer 1996). In a recent
study, traces of THC were vaporized at temperatures as low as 140C (284F)
and the majority of THC vaporized by 185C (365F); benzene and other carcinogenic
vapors did not appear until 200C (392F), and cannabis combustion
occurred around 230C (446F) (Gieringer 2001)."

This is similar to Rosenthal's research. I also find that at 200C range I get very aromatic and "tasty" vapor. At this temp the terpenoids are released which contain the flavors of the bud. But I'm going to drop the temp to 190C to avoid or reduce the amount of benzene and other carcinogens. After all, I vaporize for the "harm reduction" benefit, otherwise I'd sill be rolling doobies.

 

[Acolyte of Zinglon]

even on full blast, as long as it doesnt burn its way better than smoking... hell i get worse just by going out and breathing in the city

 

[Cannabudz]

temperature numbers can get confusing when considering the reading is higher than actual herb temp, i want to know if there is no hint of blackness or scorch in the Vape Poo, can u say without doubt no harmfull byproducts were consumed, (assuming pesticides r absent from the equation). my guess is yes but can't be sure.

Also can anyone with the new Extreme model going to 260c tell me what the Actual temp of the herb is if it reads 220c on the display.

I don't want the reasons for the difference thats been covered

 

[stickstones]

Someone here was gonna drill a hole in the bowl of their 'That Which Fucks Me Up' machine and stick a thermometer in there. That would be a great bit of info to get!

 

[spyder]

MY OPINION!!

whatever temp the item refered to as 'That Which Fucks Me Up' reaches at it's max or says it reaches is not hot enough. I modified mine... which works alot better than stock but still does not get hot enough
in MY OPINION.

 

[vapedcrusader]

Someone here was gonna drill a hole in the bowl of their 'That Which Fucks Me Up' machine and stick a thermometer in there. That would be a great bit of info to get!

I've done pretty extensive testing with the Volcano Digit and it is always within +/- 5*F of the temp stated on the display. I don't think the herbalAire or the Extreme are as accurate. The Extreme's display jumps around, which is normal for an electronic temp reader. The Volcano's display climbs so steadily b/c they have some software installed in the PC board to make it go up by 1*F increments.

 

[vaporcloud]

I don't think the herbalAire or the Extreme are as accurate.

You should try the vaporite. A friend has one and I was telling her about mine and its tendancy to burn the herb and she said 320f works well for them. So I tried that, let it heat up, even let it cool down a little once up to temp, first hit was nice, second hit big big vapor cloud ... this is better, stir the bowl, take another slow draw and suddenly there is a red glow from within the bowl and what do you know ... combustion! They advertise saying these vaps are callobrated to never burn. I can avoid the burn by manually dropping and raising the temp but its not very accurate but does prevent the burn. Thankfully I have the PD which is still my main goto vap ... but I want to vaporise some other herbal blends that require slightly highert temps than MJ so I'm gonna have to try the manual temp thing with the vaporite.

 

[Acolyte of Zinglon]

heres a copy and paste from another forum, hope u like





Phytocannabinoids, their boiling points, and properties

?-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC)
Boiling point: 157*C / 314.6 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Euphoriant, Analgesic, Antiinflammatory, Antioxidant, Antiemetic

cannabidiol (CBD)
Boiling point: 160-180*C / 320-356 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Anxiolytic, Analgesic, Antipsychotic, Antiinflammatory, Antioxidant, Antispasmodic

Cannabinol (CBN)
Boiling point: 185*C / 365 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Oxidation, breakdown, product, Sedative, Antibiotic

cannabichromene (CBC)
Boiling point: 220*C / 428 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Antiinflammatory, Antibiotic, Antifungal

?-8-tetrahydrocannabinol (?-8-THC)
Boiling point: 175-178*C / 347-352.4 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Resembles ?-9-THC, Less psychoactive, More stable Antiemetic

tetrahydrocannabivarin (THCV)
Boiling point: < 220*C / <428 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Analgesic, Euphoriant





Terpenoid essential oils, their boiling points, and properties

?-myrcene
Boiling point: 166-168*C / 330.8-334.4 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Analgesic. Antiinflammatory, Antibiotic, Antimutagenic

?-caryophyllene
Boiling point: 119*C / 246.2 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Antiinflammatory, Cytoprotective (gastric mucosa), Antimalarial

d-limonene
Boiling point: 177*C / 350.6 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Cannabinoid agonist?, Immune potentiator, Antidepressant, Antimutagenic

linalool
Boiling point: 198*C / 388.4 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Sedative, Antidepressant, Anxiolytic, Immune potentiator

pulegone
Boiling point: 224*C / 435.2 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Memory booster?, AChE inhibitor, Sedative, Antipyretic

1,8-cineole (eucalyptol)
Boiling point: 176*C / 348.8 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: AChE inhibitor, Increases cerebral, blood flow, Stimulant, Antibiotic, Antiviral, Antiinflammatory, Antinociceptive

?-pinene
Boiling point: 156*C / 312.8 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Antiinflammatory, Bronchodilator, Stimulant, Antibiotic, Antineoplastic, AChE inhibitor

?-terpineol
Boiling point: 217-218*C / 422.6-424.4 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Sedative, Antibiotic, AChE inhibitor, Antioxidant, Antimalarial

terpineol-4-ol
Boiling point: 209*C / 408.2 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: AChE inhibitor. Antibiotic

p-cymene
Boiling point: 177*C / 350.6 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Antibiotic, Anticandidal, AChE inhibitor

borneol
Boiling point: 210*C / 410 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Antibiotic, ?-3-carene 0.004% 168 Antiinflammatory

?-3-carene
Boiling point: 168*C / 334.4 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Antiinflammatory





Flavonoid and phytosterol components, their boiling points, and properties

apigenin
Boiling point: 178*C / 352.4 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Anxiolytic, Antiinflammatory, Estrogenic

quercetin
Boiling point: 250*C / 482 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Antioxidant, Antimutagenic, Antiviral, Antineoplastic

cannflavin A
Boiling point: 182*C / 359.6 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: COX inhibitor, LO inhibitor

?-sitosterol
Boiling point: 134*C / 273.2 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Antiinflammatory, 5-?-reductase, inhibitor

 

[Cannabudz]

If Delta 9 has a boiling point of 157*c why the Fuck does it need so much heat in the VG ( the Extreme does not have the ability to run full melt for me) I'm of course assuming full melt Hashish is in fact all Delta 9 THC, i'm hearing use Full melt on Red hot Titanium (surely hotter than 157*c i'm sure), I'd really like to better understand whats goin on here,It seems odd that for me the Extreme only wants to be a great Vape when i put Straight Bud in there, With full melt it goes wrong, even if i preheat the bud then put the melt on top & vape up straight away, there seems Fuckall out of the Bud, and the enjoyment of Hashish is just not there , Really odd to me & makes me glad i purchased the VaporGenie thats for sure.

 

[Acolyte of Zinglon]

well, think aboyut it, hash has less total surface ares for which the heat to be absorbed, the hot knife technique and variations there of basically make t flash-boil

 

[cancertoast]

The quote came from the book: Ask Ed: Marijuana Gold-Trash to Stash.
The author Ed Rosenthal covers how to make honey oil, hash, etc from the trimmings and leftovers that in most cases gets thrown away. Very informative book??HIGHLY? recommended.

Obviously, these are guidelines that have some variation depending on the variables of the particular herb. And we each have our own preferences. If I have really fragrant buds, I prefer to enjoy its flavor for a longer period of time, so I keep the Extreme around 225. It?s tantamount to enjoying a fine 10-year old cabernet sauvignon. One wouldn?t want to drink or gulp a fine wine, instead you gently sip it and enjoy the subtle nuances within its flavor. Good bud should be treated the same way.

But if I want a quick and heavy hit, I set it around 275. Anything above that and it starts tasting burnt, and the vapor looks more like smoke than vapor. And once it?s burnt, it?s gone. But if you don?t burn or scorch it, it?ll last a lot longer and you get a lot more out of it.

Which Extreme do you have? Do you have one of the newer unites with a lowered heat-ceiling?

 

[max]

Which Extreme do you have? Do you have one of the newer unites with a lowered heat-ceiling?

The actual temp range of the Extreme has always been the same, according to Steve. Only the location of the heat sensor has been changed.

 

[Cannabudz]

MY OPINION!!

whatever temp the item refered to as 'That Which Fucks Me Up' reaches at it's max or says it reaches is not hot enough. I modified mine... which works alot better than stock but still does not get hot enough
in MY OPINION.

Did that have anything to do with vaping Oil, If so did moving the heater help thing's, Not that i mind using the VG

 

[vtac]

Phytocannabinoids, their boiling points, and properties

?-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC)
Boiling point: 157*C / 314.6 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Euphoriant, Analgesic, Antiinflammatory, Antioxidant, Antiemetic

cannabidiol (CBD)
Boiling point: 160-180*C / 320-356 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Anxiolytic, Analgesic, Antipsychotic, Antiinflammatory, Antioxidant, Antispasmodic

Cannabinol (CBN)
Boiling point: 185*C / 365 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Oxidation, breakdown, product, Sedative, Antibiotic

That's some serious info.

So many fun things happening every time you vape a bowl.

 

[Cannabudz]

yeah i was gawking @ the Properties:/uses etc. More Input, Feed Me

 

[32paths]

@Vtac, definitely agree that this is an area that needs either more research or clarification. I have been trying to research this myself but have found too many contradictions in studies in order to cite one as more accurate. My concern is as follows; If 200*C is actually the temperature at which THC will begin to boil off & vaporize we run into a predicament with toxins. A 2001 study done by Dale Gieringer found that at temperatures starting around 200*C, substantial amounts of Benzene (a carcinogenic compound) were being produced. This backs us up into a wall when it comes to temperature selection; do we decide to forfeit the majority if not all of the THC in order to be healthier & avoid the Benzene, or do we sacrifice our health in order to get the maximum THC.

A study done by Dr. Paul Hornsby at the green cross of BC found that the lowest temperature at which THC is vaporized is setting 7 on the Volcano (202*C) with a required 6 bags until all of the THC was gone. Anything below setting 7 he said was not hot enough to emit any THC.

This contradicts directly with the 2001 study done by Dr. Gieringer which showed that 185*C was optimal for THC delivery without any toxic byproducts (it should be noted that this study was done with the M1-Volatizer). A followup study was done by Dr. Gieringer using the Volcano at the highest setting 9 which produced a lot of THC but also 2 carcinogenic compounds.

So the dilemma comes down to this: I dont think any of us want to vape at 200*C and inhale Benzene along with the 2 carcinogenic compounds if we dont have to. The only thing that would compel us to do so is if THC is only evaporated at that temperature. Yet there seems to be evidence that it may be evaporated at temperatures as low as 157*C. Any additional info or opinions would be greatly appreciated. I emailed Dr. Gieringer to get some more clarification and will report back with his findings.

 

[Chubba]

So the dilemma comes down to this: I dont think any of us want to vape at 200*C and inhale Benzene along with the 2 carcinogenic compounds if we dont have to. The only thing that would compel us to do so is if THC is only evaporated at that temperature. Yet there seems to be evidence that it may be evaporated at temperatures as low as 157*C. Any additional info or opinions would be greatly appreciated. I emailed Dr. Gieringer to get some more clarification and will report back with his findings.

What I'm really interested in is whether these compounds we're getting at higher temperatures would get filtered through a vaporbong setup.

 

[luchiano]

@Vtac, definitely agree that this is an area that needs either more research or clarification. I have been trying to research this myself but have found too many contradictions in studies in order to cite one as more accurate. My concern is as follows; If 200*C is actually the temperature at which THC will begin to boil off & vaporize we run into a predicament with toxins. A 2001 study done by Dale Gieringer found that at temperatures starting around 200*C, substantial amounts of Benzene (a carcinogenic compound) were being produced. This backs us up into a wall when it comes to temperature selection; do we decide to forfeit the majority if not all of the THC in order to be healthier & avoid the Benzene, or do we sacrifice our health in order to get the maximum THC.

A study done by Dr. Paul Hornsby at the green cross of BC found that the lowest temperature at which THC is vaporized is setting 7 on the Volcano (202*C) with a required 6 bags until all of the THC was gone. Anything below setting 7 he said was not hot enough to emit any THC.

This contradicts directly with the 2001 study done by Dr. Gieringer which showed that 185*C was optimal for THC delivery without any toxic byproducts (it should be noted that this study was done with the M1-Volatizer). A followup study was done by Dr. Gieringer using the Volcano at the highest setting 9 which produced a lot of THC but also 2 carcinogenic compounds.

So the dilemma comes down to this: I dont think any of us want to vape at 200*C and inhale Benzene along with the 2 carcinogenic compounds if we dont have to. The only thing that would compel us to do so is if THC is only evaporated at that temperature. Yet there seems to be evidence that it may be evaporated at temperatures as low as 157*C. Any additional info or opinions would be greatly appreciated. I emailed Dr. Gieringer to get some more clarification and will report back with his findings.

The reason that those carcinogenic compounds were made most likely is because the lower temperature oils were burned when vaporizing at that temperature. If you want to avoid the burning of the oils which will make the carcinogenic compounds vape at low temperatures and when the taste is gone turn up the temperature and vape the thc and other cannabinoids that vape at higher temperatures.

As far as the Dr. Hornsby study and the 2001 study, different vaporizers were used and they both work different. The one in 2001 used the volatizer vaporizer which heats the air and I feel the user inhales which creates a small vacuum that will allow some thc to be released and Dr. Hornsby used the volcano which uses a fan to go into a bag that wouldn't allow a small vacuum to be made. Some may argue about this vacuum being enough to make a difference but I think it does BUT not enough to discredit the volcano. As far as the 2001 study even though some thc was found we don't know how much and this is important.

Vaporizing is all about manipulating the temperatures to vaporize different compounds to get the best and healthiest experience not keeping the temperature at one spot. This is especially true with cannabis because different strains have different amounts and different types of oils that vaporize at different temperatures and by adjusting the temperature for each strain you get the best experience in taste, health, and psychoactive affects.

 

[32paths]

I received a response back from Dr. Gieringer from NORML regarding the vaporization point of THC. He indicated that

THC vapors can certainly be plentifully produced at 180. Vapors are produced over a wide range of temperatures below the theoretical boiling point..
Many Volcano users keep the temperatures at this point & below. I'm not certain that the numerical settings in the test below (Dr. Hornsby's study) reflected the temperatures properly, but I don't have that info available with me. I think that a setting of 7 is closer to 180 than 200. A fair amount of THC residue may be left, but the leftovers can be baked into edibles.

What he is suggesting is that the vaporization point can be at 180*C and even lower & that in the Dr. Hornsby studies (who suggested that 200*C is the minimum for THC vaporization based on the use of the #7 setting on the Volcano) the actual setting on a Volcano is much lower within the filling chamber than what the manufacturer suggests. Indeed I looked into this and came across a study by a Dutch researcher whose study I am linking to here: https://docs.google.com/fileview?id...zctMWU5Zi00M2MzLWI0ZjItNWI2MTc5ZGQxMzM5&hl=en

This study confirms what Dr. Gieringer stated regarding the Volcano settings being much lower in temperature in the filling chamber than what the manufacturer suggests. Essentially with the Volcano, you need approximately 90 seconds of blowing air through the filling chamber in order for the internal temperature to reach the setting you are going for. So for example, if you set your Volcano to 202*C or setting 7, you would need a bag large enough to allow for 90 seconds of filling time in order for the temperature to reach 202*C. The graph is rather linear, thus at 45s the Cano seems to show a 10*C decrease from the expected temperature. At 45 seconds into filling a balloon, the temperature at setting 7 will be 192*C. This indicates that in Dr. Hornsby's studies, what he thought was 200*C was really only 192*C.

In my opinion, 185*C is the ideal temperature for Vaping. Any higher will work & will deliver more THC in a shorter amount of bags. However, this comes at the expense of efficiency and your health.

 

[luchiano]

I received a response back from Dr. Gieringer from NORML regarding the vaporization point of THC. He indicated that

THC vapors can certainly be plentifully produced at 180. Vapors are produced over a wide range of temperatures below the theoretical boiling point..
Many Volcano users keep the temperatures at this point & below. I'm not certain that the numerical settings in the test below (Dr. Hornsby's study) reflected the temperatures properly, but I don't have that info available with me. I think that a setting of 7 is closer to 180 than 200. A fair amount of THC residue may be left, but the leftovers can be baked into edibles.

What he is suggesting is that the vaporization point can be at 180*C and even lower & that in the Dr. Hornsby studies (who suggested that 200*C is the minimum for THC vaporization based on the use of the #7 setting on the Volcano) the actual setting on a Volcano is much lower within the filling chamber than what the manufacturer suggests. Indeed I looked into this and came across a study by a Dutch researcher whose study I am linking to here: https://docs.google.com/fileview?id...zctMWU5Zi00M2MzLWI0ZjItNWI2MTc5ZGQxMzM5&hl=en

This study confirms what Dr. Gieringer stated regarding the Volcano settings being much lower in temperature in the filling chamber than what the manufacturer suggests. Essentially with the Volcano, you need approximately 90 seconds of blowing air through the filling chamber in order for the internal temperature to reach the setting you are going for. So for example, if you set your Volcano to 202*C or setting 7, you would need a bag large enough to allow for 90 seconds of filling time in order for the temperature to reach 202*C. The graph is rather linear, thus at 45s the Cano seems to show a 10*C decrease from the expected temperature. At 45 seconds into filling a balloon, the temperature at setting 7 will be 192*C. This indicates that in Dr. Hornsby's studies, what he thought was 200*C was really only 192*C.

In my opinion, 185*C is the ideal temperature for Vaping. Any higher will work & will deliver more THC in a shorter amount of bags. However, this comes at the expense of efficiency and your health.

Thanks for the info!

I noticed it said that when using crude flower tops(BUD)thca was converted to thc when the settings was at it's highest setting but only 29% of thc was released.

It seems that 185C is a good start but it will take a long time just to get the thc released if you stay at this temperature because it took six bags when dr. hornsby did the study at setting 7 which you say is 192C so imagine how long it would take if you go lower with 185C plus if you use a bigger bag more air will dilute the vapor which means even longer to feel the affects. The study stated about 35% of thc was exhaled which means if you use a bigger bag more will condense onto the bag and even less will be absorbed into the lungs because it will take longer to inhale a big bag giving time for it to condense. You will inhale less because more air will be in the bag diluting the vapor. They estimated 6-8mg of thc is inhaled when doing it their way and using 20mg but if you add a bigger bag it will probably be even less. You will get a big air rush though which might confuse some with a thc high.

I think a lower temperature is good if you can prevent the vapor from being diluted like using a wand small bag or small bubbler and you want to inhale for a long time like relaxing watching a movie and want to enjoy the herb for a while but you might as well eat the herb with a healthy meal because it will hit around the same time you finish your bags and be more effective especially if you are talking about using herb for medical reasons but if you want a quicker affect and still enjoy the herb taste and affects but keeping it safe and healthy while not diluting the vapors using a small bag,small bubbler or wand is needed while starting at a low temperature to get rid of the lower temperature oils to prevent smoke being made and creating carcinogenic compounds and then raising the temperature to 192C or higher to get a denser hit of the cannabinoids which means more affect.

Also when you think about it being that the temperature was 192c and not 200C, which he thought was the actual temperature, it makes sense why Dr.horsnby needed to do six bags to release all the thc and not less because 192c is close enough to start the vaporization process but not high enough to do it fast. Those 8 degrees made a big difference.

 

[jackstraw62]

according to cannabis and cannabis extracts by Macpartland and Russo Delta 9 , the most psychoactive isomer, boils at 157 degrees Celsius. Personally I have always been a delta 9 devote remember iso-2. I use a hot air gun and I have it set AT 330 DEGREES FAHRENHEIT. Rub the vaped pot between your fingers if there is not any oily feeling than put it in a jar and make butter when you have a oz and become pleasantly surprised.