Lung burn when vaping - bad news for vaping?

[MinnBobber]

@MinnBobber maybe I haven't been clear enough.... What are the health impacts or benefits of vaporizing 1 gram of cannabis over 20 years?

Who is telling you that vaping over 20 years an x amount of cannabis won't have any adversed and still unknown consequences?

.....................................................................
Holy crap, one gram of cannabis over 20 years beats even lwien on the efficiency scale

Since it's a schedule one substance and US research is just starting, no one can say long term vaping is without risks.
The best long term studies will likely come from Israel as they got a head-start.

If you are talking 1 gram a day, that's WAY beyond my personal use/comfort zone. But I would say, after reading countless studies, using a reasonable amount for long term useage is 1000 or 10,000 or 100,000 times more likely to ward off/prevent a vast array of serious/deadly diseases than the few tiny/ minor problems it might cause.
All credible research that I've read points to cannabis being the most versatile, most universal, most effective medicine there is, period. I cannot think of one medicine, natural or synthetic, that has more medical benefits and so few possible side effects.

For example, one study is showing that cannabis use can prevent future traumatic brain injuries and also help if taken after a brain injury. Side effects for some are minor dizziness.

Every month the list of major diseases that cannabis helps to prevent or cure gets longer. We're talking Alzheimers, cancer, epilepsy, PTSD, depression, Crohn's disease, pain, etc .

My bet, based on my readings is that 20 years of cannabis vaping will have 1000 times the benefits vs any yet to be determined risks. Is there a study to prove that? Not yet.


You seem to be focused on risks. I'm focused on rewards/risks ratio.

 

[CarolKing]

I think if a person is able to not vaporize too high a temp. Or if they do to make sure you have water filtration. I think also @steama is right, frequency is an issue. We have a lot of Fcers that are runners and they vaporize cannabis. So it has a lot to do with taking care of your body and staying in shape too, eating the right foods.

Sometimes we don't know the chemicals that could be in our cannabis. I'm all for organic medicine. I am able to buy 100% organic at a Med Cannabis Farmers Market. A couple years ago I was still buying in the black market. I was getting high quality cannabis but at a huge price and I didn't know how it was grown.

Sometimes folks have to weigh the good vs bad. We have a lot of older FCers that have health issues and are staying away from too many pharmaceuticals. It's not just recreational that we are talking about.

Everything in moderation is the best way. Sometimes too much of a good thing isn't good.

 

[lwien]

.....................................................................
Holy crap, one gram of cannabis over 20 years beats even lwien on the efficiency scale

 

[ragnorak71]

Inhaling substances other than air is potentially not good for your lungs. You can understand this, correct?

fixed that for you, and yes I do but then that is not the point is it? organic weed made some claims and then twisted and turned like a twisty turny thing when called on it

 

[lwien]

organic weed made some claims and then twisted and turned like a twisty turny thing when called on it

 

[organic weed]

Folk

Recently I posted a statistical survey in another forum and 50% of the forum used more than 1 gr/day. More specifically 16% used over 3 gr/day. Only 4% used equals to or less than 1 gr/ week.... And 80% of the forum was combusting...

so elaborating on some of @CarolKing 's consideration, what do you think is a safe daily or weekly vaporized intake? How often and how much?

 

[ragnorak71]

 

[organic weed]

Just wondering who's the old man here...

 

[lwien]

...what do you think is a safe daily or weekly vaporized intake? How often and how much?

How can anyone come up with a valid answer to those questions? My answer would be, "I don't have a fucking clue.."

When it comes right down to it, it's the risk/reward ratio that comes into play, and that ratio can be quite a bit different for everyone.

 

[organic weed]

@lwien doesn't that simply show we know very little, too little on vaporizing? We know recommended dosage for aspirins... Why we don't know it for cannabis if it is claimed to be a medicine? The whole liberalization movement has used medical cannabis as one of the pillars to achieve its goal and now the answer is "I don't have a fucking clue"??? That sounds like a paradox to me...

 

[lwien]

@lwien doesn't that simply show we know very little, too little on vaporizing? We know recommended dosage for aspirins... Why we don't know it for cannabis if it is claimed to be a medicine? The whole legalization movement has used this as one of the pillars and now the answer is "I don't have a fucking clue"??? That sounds like a paradox to me...

The problem is that weed is still identified as a schedule one drug and until that changes, any scientific studies are really hampered.

 

[organic weed]

Agree... Things have to change quickly. They will.

 

[lwien]

Agree... Things have to change quickly. They will.

Things are changing, pretty damn quickly actually within the past few years.

 

[CarolKing]

Folk

Recently I posted a statistical survey in another forum and 50% of the forum used more than 1 gr/day. More specifically 16% used over 3 gr/day. Only 4% used equals to or less than 1 gr/ week.... And 80% of the forum was combusting...

so elaborating on some of @CarolKing 's consideration, what do you think is a safe daily or weekly vaporized intake? How often and how much?

I'm talking medical right now. That's too broad of a question with too many variables. Each person is different and every day is different for whatever issues that they are dealing with - its very individualized.

 

[organic weed]

well... I think one day we will have a framework, maybe a flexible and broad one, based on a number of variables, but we will have one. Knowledge always expands

 

[Hippie Dickie]

not 20 years, but i be vaping a gram a day, about an ounce per month, for 15 years. i'm dedicated (no, addicted) to my NordicTrack - anything that inhibits my 30 minutes per day (for 33 years) would be quit. that's why i gave up asthma medication - couldn't do the aerobics with that hateful puffer - changing my breathing technique was sufficient - (exhale longer than inhale - 3:1). so this is purely anecdotal.

and i work out a total of about an hour per day - so, acceptably fit and getting stronger - BMI about 21. i live in the country, so pure clean air where i be.

i don't care if this is non-scientific (how large does N have to be anyway, to be "certified" scientific) - if it works for me that is all i need to know. we're all anecdotes, after all.

 

[lwien]

Making conscious adjustments can increase and prolong ones life and quality of life as well.

 

[howie105]

Life is full of things one could worry about, if one chooses to worry about vapeing then go for it. I for one am more concerned about cleaning the cat box.

 

[Joel W.]

my

vaping>combusting>not using MJ at all!
sleep/sanity/meds>any potential vaping risk!

This reminds me a bit of when I started a "man made global warming/climate change?" debate on an automotive forum., I forgot where I was for a second. Whoops..

 

[mitchgo61]

This reminds me a bit of when I started a "man made global warming/climate change?" debate on an automotive forum., I forgot where I was for a second. Whoops..

Context. It's what's for dinner.

 

[cybrguy]

I am a fan of scientific data and strongly believe in it (yeah, a Dem). And properly done it is pretty much ALWAYS better than anecdotal evidence by it's very nature (controls and objective measurability [quantification]). That doesn't in any manner disqualify or diminish the value of anecdotal evidence. There is a (good) reason for the expression "experience is the best teacher".

Lacking good scientific evidence as we do at this point on long term effects of MJ consumption, anecdotal evidence is what we are left with to guide our behaviors. Having been a cig smoker for many years I certainly know how damaging that behavior is. There ARE plenty of studies, but having experienced it myself I don't really need a study to inform my opinion. I may to produce statistics, but not to recognize the effect. It is obvious. Fortunately I lucked out enough to see some improvement in lung health since quitting cigs, an experience not all smokers quit in time to appreciate.

I have also had the experience of living in fairly polluted cities like Chicago and LA and Denver, fortunately not for very long times in the cities themselves. Even these cities don't compare to cities like Mexico City or Beijing, where you can practically cut the air with a knife. Anyone who has lived in these cities, and especially anyone who has exercised outside in these cities, can tell you how noticeable the effect on breathing is. Smart folk who don't mind looking a little silly often wear masks there. I'm sure if I had to live in Beijing or Mex City I would too.

My point is we have to work with what we have, and it will still be some time before we have the best methodologically correct studies to rely on to answer these questions, but that doesn't mean we sit around with our thumbs up our butts waiting for them. We act on what we "know", and right now that CERTAINLY includes vaping over combusting. Simple.

 

[hoptimum]

The dynamics of vaping is still pretty much unknown. The resin is an oil. When it reaches its boiling point it evaporates by the million of particles still are in the form of oil, correct? The oil is much more difficult to cool than the smoke, correct? So it would reach the lung at a higher T. Right or wrong? Can vaping also damage the lungs somehow after a long use?

Without going into your entire post, I will address your closing comments.
The dynamics of vaping have been understood for a very long time. Put simply, vaping is "smoking" at controlled temps. Whether you smoke or vape, the process is the same. The cannabinoids in your herb reach their boiling point between 360 and 420f. and become vapor that is essentially an oil that is absorbed into your lungs and into your body. Combustion with a lighter or match is 1000-2000f. The millions of particles you seem to be worried about are more prevalent with smoking, in tars and carcinogins, because fire incinerates everything at once. With vapes you dial in the boiling point of the cannabinoids without burning everything up at once. Vapor can feel dry and irritate your throat because it is an oil. but much less than smoking, IMO. I like vapor bonging since the water seems to cool and moisturize the vapor and filter particulates. As far as lung damage. scientists are studying the possiblity that the complex matirx of cannabis itself might curtail the formation of cancers. IMO, anything you consume comes with some risk. Vaping seems to me intuitively less harmful as well as more pleasurable than smoking, so its a risk I am happy to take.

 

[arf777]

@ragnorak71 and @mitchgo61

I am sorry here to disagree with you on many different fronts.

Because of my background and job, I can guarantee you that I could write easily a scientific piece if I had enough data and information on this topic. My intervention couldn't be a scientific piece because there is simply not much scientific info on vaporizers. That's a fact.

I did a bit of literature research thorough major scientific databases such as www.sciencedirect.com and there is very little scientific paper (I found 3 articles only and they are not recent) on the proven benefits of vaporizers compared to smoking, showing that there is much less CO and carcinogen released. However, these tests have been mostly (only?) carried out with the Volcano. There are a lot of vaporizers around where the conveyer tube passes through plastic pieces made in China that could easily be heated up releasing toxins. Please send me scientific papers made with other vaporizers other than the Volcano and then we can start talking again.

In addition to this, there is no historical record long enough to prove scientifically that vaporizers are healthy. This is just an unexplored field and people start putting money in the health science behind vaporizer only now. We can only assume they are better but not prove scientifically that vape is an healthy option. How much healthier? Nobody knows. Prove me wrong on this point with hard scientific evidence please, and statistically significant population monitored over 20 years.

Most of the scientific papers out there have made comparison analysis between perceptions of people who vape and those who don't, because so far this is the only thing we can do. We do not have for example a statistically track record of 5000 people vaporizing 1 gram daily over 20 years that prove that vaping is healthy.

If you have such scientific evidence then please, once again, send me the scientific paper coz I can back up with hard science and quotations everything I am claiming here if you ask for it.

I can send and link a paper saying that 40% of the people that used vaporizer had sputum production compared to 60% of those who smoke. I can't do it now coz I'm traveling but I'll glad to do so if you'd like when I get back home. This data shows that it's better but not that much. Sputum means irritation and irritation over a long time causes many different problems.

Why is vaporizing irritating then the lung and throat? What is it causing it? What is the dynamics in the cell of daily THC coating?

Do you have scientific evidence showing that it' safe? Do you have a paper saying that 5000 people vaped daily 1 gram over 20 years and none of them had chronic bronchitis?

Let be frank. I think you comment on my post is more out of hope than based on scientific evidence. I can back up what I claim with science and ready to do so if asked. Are you able to do the same and provide me with data on your claims?

I am playing a bit of the devil's advocate here but I think the whole vaping community shall be aware that we are a few years away from knowing what are the real health and benefits of vaping. This will only happen when we will have a statistically significant population monitored over a period of time.

Just FYI- there is in fact a decent amount of research on vaporizing cannabis, just not in English (or available for free in any language- behind paywalls). There is more of it in Hebrew than in any other language I know of, mostly from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, which has a lab run by Raphael Mechoulam, who discovered THC. He has a had a cadre of scientists under him studying THC, anandamide, other cannabinoids, and vaporization, for years. The older THC research from that lab has been translated into English, as has much of the anandamide research, but not much of the vaporization research has been. They even did comparison studies on the health effects of combusting joints, combusting through a water pipe, vaping dry, and vaping through a water pipe. They concluded through temperature and particulate measures that vaping through water was far and away the healthiest option- after going through room temp water they found non-scorching temps and lower particulate volumes in vaped through water than in any other inhalation method. They did not go so far as to call any inhalation method "healthy", but in relative terms they found the littlest risk in vaping through water, both in temps and particulates.

I did some experimenting myself, measuring the temp of visible vapor with an IR thermometer in large water tools after going through cold water, cold water and ice, and room temp water, and all were pretty reasonable - warmest measure I got was 150F with vapor from a VapeXhale Cloud EVO set at noon through a decent volume of room-temp (68f) water. Personally I have never been able to do warm water - makes me cough. I'm a cold water and ice person.

One thing I know of that might help - more on particulates than on temp - is vaping through either hemp or cotton fiber. The use of fiber in vapor conditioning, especially the use of hemp fiber, is discussed in the HI thread. In my case, it makes a pretty big difference in throat irritation. I use fine hemp fiber, which you can get for about $10 US / kg. Which is a huge amount of fiber. I bought a kilo of it 2 years ago and have still barely used 5% of it. If you PM me your address I can send you some.

 

[MinnBobber]

I don't have any links handy but found studies that showed: even longterm smoking of cannabis did NOT lead to lung cancer. And that is with inhaling all those dozens of known carcinogens and nasty combustion by-products. The healing /medical properties of cannabis seem to trump the usual bad bad effects of smoking any substance.
That leads me to believe/surmise that vaping cannabis will generally be considered very safe longterm as you are getting all the medical/healing benefits without taking in all those nasty combustion by-products (at least 95% fewer).

 

[lwien]

I don't have any links handy but found studies that showed: even longterm smoking of cannabis did NOT lead to lung cancer.

I'd feel a little bit better if they said the same thing about COPD.