Jeb Bush Use to Smoke Marijuana and Sell Hash at Boarding School

[His_Highness]

Show me where I said anything remotely like that? I'm saying you have been taught by Fox News and the repubs to view your own welfare as being under attack by greedy takers at the bottom of society. You feel like your hard earned is being distributed away to slackers at the direction of politicians and government bureaucrats. I'm saying the redistribution is mainly going the other direction: you are subsidizing rich people.

I don't watch Fox news and don't feel my welfare is under attack. I also didn't mean to put words in your mouth with my question. I was just trying to clarify your position. Can I conclude that then that the answer to my question was 'No'?

I'm pretty sure, all things being equal, if you worked 16 hour days next to someone who worked 8 hour days and at the end of the week you made double the amount of the other guy .... you might be unhappy if the other guy took a few bucks out of your wallet simply because you made more than him.

As far as subsidizing the rich...the financial engineering going on today is brutal but the reasons for it are not all due to some repub fantasy. What Bush left us with is hurting folks... and repubs and dems alike are behind it. You can find plenty of arguments for and against the fed and even find people who will swear it is the dems who drove it home after Bush left office. Some might say that the financial engineering saved the US but hurt the lower income groups. Me, I didn't do as well as I'd like in econ 101 so I won't try and unravel it.

 

[Gunky]

I don't watch Fox news and don't feel my welfare is under attack. I also didn't mean to put words in your mouth with my question. I was just trying to clarify your position. Can I conclude that then that the answer to my question was 'No'?

I'm pretty sure, all things being equal, if you worked 16 hour days next to someone who worked 8 hour days and at the end of the week you made double the amount of the other guy .... you might be unhappy if the other guy took a few bucks out of your wallet simply because you made more than him.

You say you don't feel like your welfare is under attack but then you make a metaphor about people making less picking your pocket. You do feel that people lower than you on the economic scale are grabbing something from you which they don't deserve. Don't deny it, your example shouts it. I keep telling you, the expense of things like food stamps is tiny compared to the subsidies enjoyed by the top earners, and of course tons of retired people of all classes collecting Social Security (which the rich have gamed by putting a low ceiling on the income eligible for FICA taxes).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...e2de84-bdf9-11e4-bdfa-b8e8f594e6ee_story.html

 

[Silver420Surfer]

The worst part is we now have generations of younger people who believe this is how things are supposed to be or always were, in this country.

let me ask this. If we subscribe to the theory that corporate earnings are some of the highest in history, and wages are at the lowest point, and corporate amerika wants to say that the unskilled labor force doesn't deserve to earn more or get paid a living wage. Who the hell is helping these corporate fucks make this fuckload of profits??
The same people who they deem not worthy to share in these profits by paying higher wages, better benefits, vacation, etc. On top of this you have some of the biggest tech companies in the world getting their hand slapped for conspiring(FOR YEARS) to keep down industry wages.

More than half this country struggles to make it by, I will vote for the party who will at least give something back in social programs, HEALTHCARE, etc., for those people. I will NEVER vote for the party who seeks to take it all and keep it for themselves, which the Republicans have shown they wish to do, time and time again.

Time to go . My heart can only handle a little bit of political discourse per day.

 

[His_Highness]

The worst part is we now have generations of younger people who believe this is how things are supposed to be or always were, in this country.

Silver - I wish I had made that observation. It's horrible to think that someone, young or not, might feel that it's not worth working hard to succeed in life because the cards are stacked against them. One of the jobs that helped me get through college was a work study program where my job was to help people who wanted to go to college but couldn't afford it. I took advantage of those opportunities myself to go to school and then was given the opportunity to work with underprivileged students and adult education students. It was my job to help and teach them how to qualify scholastically for grants and then to help them with the system and forms themselves. It's this background that makes me so passionate about the opportunities available to those who will just 'try' because these opportunities are still there today. Call any university and ask for a financial aid counselor or an adult ed counselor and you'll see what I mean. Another path is the number of companies that will pay a portion of the tuition while you work for them or the military.

I don't think anyone would be surprised to find out that the ones who called/worked with us were already motivated to succeed and did. I had someone close to me say 'nobody in my neighborhood goes to college and they're doing fine' and my all time least favorite 'I'm not waiting for 4 years to make some real money'.

Ouch...damn that hurt! I just fell of my high horse and landed right on my soap box.

 

[Gunky]

I don't think Highness understands your point, Silver. We're talking about politicians who substitute brinkmanship for legislation. Who think endlessly demonizing a man who is actually a pretty good president can make up for having no ideas besides rewarding their rich, corporate benefactors with lower tax rates and deregulation. Who have gridlocked the Senate by requiring 60 votes for everything. Who actually bring about a credit downgrade for the US because they can never let an essential bill go through without holding it hostage to some unrelated demand of theirs. People who vote 50 odd times to overturn Obamacare when they know they don't have the votes to make it stick, who just don't have time to confirm essential and noncontroversial appointments but who whisper they could make time if certain demands are met... Who continue to insist, after decades of proof to the contrary, that trickle-down economics works. Who appoint crackpots to chair key scientific positions in congress. As we watch Europe go down the tubes with their mistaken austerity policies, these clowns insist we follow suit. I could go on. Younger people think this is just the way it has always been.

 

[CarolKing]

Wealth concentration in the hands of the rich. Wealth does not trickle down to the lower income level. The rich have tax shelters and tax havens and it has a negative effect on the tax base.

I'm not a registered Democrat or anything but I seem to naturally have a lot of the same ideas that sway as the democrats. I wish there was a third party option with a candidate that seemed to have ideas that weren't too way off.

I will have to say Obama isn't the perfect president but the country was in the toilet when he got into office. Healthcare was a huge thing. Healthcare was bringing down the whole economy. It's not perfect either. It should be a one payer system. Obama wasn't able to get that so he had to settle. History will judge his presidency and healthcare.

Racism is a huge issue in this country, but I see more of it coming from the Republican Party. That's what the Tea Party was all about racism and needing to hold onto their guns. Meanwhile the United States has the most gun violence of anywhere in the civilized countries. Now the Tea Party and the Republican Party have mingled together and have created a bit of a riff between the ideals of the party. You have the ultra conservatives like Ted Cruz and the more moderates like Rand Paul, I personally like Rand Paul's dad Ron Paul, he's getting kinda old now.

It's going to be an interesting campaign between the 2 parties. I'm sure most of us will be sick of the whole thing once it's over. It seems like one campaign season runs into the next. Also it's like politicians are always campaigning for the next election. What a waist of money. Maybe a presidential election needs to be every 6 years. You can only run once consecutively. But you can run again for a second term.

 

[lwien]

I'm sure most of us will be sick of the whole thing once it's over.

I'm sick of the whole thing and it hasn't even started yet.

 

[Silver420Surfer]

@CarolKing --- As a woman and someone who mentioned that racism is a huge problem, you really should read more about Ron P's thoughts on Civil Rights Act, views on a womans right to choose, and sexual harassment in the workplace to just name a short list, before you "like" him.
This "man" has many disturbing views outside of his "let's get rid of the Fed" ideology, that should be highly scrutinized by all, but women especailly need to think if they want to give up the rights they fought so hard for.

Not that Ron P will ever be relevant in US politics again.

 

[CarolKing]

I haven't read up a lot on him because he wasn't a serious contender. I liked his stance on war and government getting out of everybody's business. I thought he sounded more like an independent. I will read more. He won't be running for prez.

EDIT
I just read a little on his stance on the Civil Rights Act - I totally disagree with him on that. I wouldn't vote for him on that alone. Civil Rights trumps private business rights IMO.

I don't know enough about him obviously. I'll get myself in trouble talking politics.

 

[Silver420Surfer]

@CarolKing -- Agree on that Civil Right's issue. Nothing else can make me get over that, regardless of whatever else he stood for. I don't think his son fell to far from the tree either.
Glad you took a sec to read a bit more about RP.

 

[His_Highness]

I don't think Highness understands your point, Silver. We're talking about politicians who substitute brinkmanship for legislation. Who think endlessly demonizing a man who is actually a pretty good president can make up for having no ideas besides rewarding their rich, corporate benefactors with lower tax rates and deregulation. Who have gridlocked the Senate by requiring 60 votes for everything. Who actually bring about a credit downgrade for the US because they can never let an essential bill go through without holding it hostage to some unrelated demand of theirs. People who vote 50 odd times to overturn Obamacare when they know they don't have the votes to make it stick, who just don't have time to confirm essential and noncontroversial appointments but who whisper they could make time if certain demands are met... Who continue to insist, after decades of proof to the contrary, that trickle-down economics works. Who appoint crackpots to chair key scientific positions in congress. As we watch Europe go down the tubes with their mistaken austerity policies, these clowns insist we follow suit. I could go on. Younger people think this is just the way it has always been.

On the contrary - I completely understand and don't disagree at all. As I mentioned at the start...my political leanings are mostly democratic. I easily vote democratic more than 90% of the time. But...I also want to make sure that a positive message is also presented. The positive message is not a counterpoint .. it is meant to cheer on anyone who wants to succeed in the face of all the negativity even if the negativity is valid. That message is once again and for the last time ..... America has made it possible for everyone to succeed in spite of the above and that the young people of all demographics should not get so caught up in 'the cards are stacked against us' and use it as an excuse for not trying.

The issues of racism and women's rights is another example....nobody should give up on their desire for success because of these issues ... the exact opposite is true .... you should strive to succeed MORE because of it or IT WINS.

 

[Gunky]

On the contrary - I completely understand and don't disagree at all. As I mentioned at the start...my political leanings are mostly democratic. I easily vote democratic more than 90% of the time. But...I also want to make sure that a positive message is also presented. The positive message is not a counterpoint .. it is meant to cheer on anyone who wants to succeed in the face of all the negativity even if the negativity is valid. That message is once again and for the last time ..... America has made it possible for everyone to succeed in spite of the above and that the young people of all demographics should not get so caught up in 'the cards are stacked against us' and use it as an excuse for not trying.

The issues of racism and women's rights is another example....nobody should give up on their desire for success because of these issues ... the exact opposite is true .... you should strive to succeed MORE because of it or IT WINS.

This sounds suspiciously like repubs blaming poor people for not trying hard enough. A large percentage of poor people in this country are working, often more than one job. They are out there early waiting for the bus. Which party thinks they should make a living wage and which says let them eat cake? Hint: take a look at the budget plan the repubs released yesterday, which ought to be subtitled: 'Bend over America!'

 

[His_Highness]

This sounds suspiciously like repubs blaming poor people for not trying hard enough.

The reason I bang my head against the wall is because it feels so good when I stop....and....I'm invoking the 'Serentiy Prayer Clause'

 

[Gunky]

The reason I bang my head against the wall is because it feels so good when I stop....and....I'm invoking the 'Serentiy Prayer Clause'

That is actually what you said:

That message is once again and for the last time ..... America has made it possible for everyone to succeed in spite of the above and that the young people of all demographics should not get so caught up in 'the cards are stacked against us' and use it as an excuse for not trying.

You said as much earlier too with your everybody just has to work hard to make it and that's all that is required for redistribution. Implicit in these theories is: if people are poor it is likely their own fault because anyone can make it here if they really try. Anyone who can think this does not understand the desperation of living on minimum wage in recent years and all the incredible obstacles and expenses faced by people who can't afford a house or car, and whose shot at higher education grows ever more distant with the repubs austerity cutting Pell grants.

 

[Gunky]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/19/opinion/charles-blow-how-expensive-it-is-to-be-poor.html
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/01/it-is-expensive-to-be-poor/282979/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/17/AR2009051702053.html
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/...ng_in_bootstrap_america_daily_annoyances.html

 

[Silver420Surfer]

The positive message is not a counterpoint .. it is meant to cheer on anyone who wants to succeed in the face of all the negativity even if the negativity is valid. That message is once again and for the last time ..... America has made it possible for everyone to succeed in spite of the above and that the young people of all demographics should not get so caught up in 'the cards are stacked against us' and use it as an excuse for not trying.

The issues of racism and women's rights is another example....nobody should give up on their desire for success because of these issues ... the exact opposite is true .... you should strive to succeed MORE because of it or IT WINS.

Are you Marco Rubio?

 

[cybrguy]

Marco Rubio isn't even Marco Rubio...

 

[His_Highness]

Look...I'm never going to convince you that I don't disagree with what your saying about how hard it is to succeed and that all I'm trying to say is ..... if someone gets so discouraged that they don't attempt to make a better life for themselves then the negative factors win.

I left home at 17 to join the military.....I put myself through school, worked two jobs doing it and in my senior year my oldest was born so I had to take her to school strapped to my chest while using the subway...thank goodness she was such a good baby. I lived in a one room studio where I appreciated the mice infestation because they kept the roach population down. One of the two jobs I had was a night-shift while going to school full-time during the day. I didn't even bother attending graduation and picked up my diploma on the way to my second day job. When I got my first diploma related job it was like a vacation.

I did some soul searching because of this thread and the discourse we've had and realize there were two things that made it possible for me to do what I did that not everyone would have access to that would make it damn near impossible for someone to persevere without them. I had a role model who showed me what was possible and I was young. I don't know what would have happened to me if I didn't have that one role model who came from my same background and was exposed to that possibility at a young age. So if your point is that not everyone can or will make it.....I agree .....

I've had young people close to me, that I care a great deal for, who I have said these same things to. Some listened, some didn't. The ones who didn't listen...some still did well but for the ones that didn't fare well ... I feel sad when I think of how much better and safer their life and their family's life could have been if they had just given it a shot.

You'll never convince me to drop the positive message that there are options available via the government and other arenas. You'll never convince me that giving up on yourself and the young is ok. You'll never convince me that we don't all have an obligation to help and to coach and to mentor. You can dredge up every negative factoid you can find but you'll never convince me that income redistribution based on income alone is a better answer than helping someone succeed. Just so we're on the same page, I'm not talking about programs like unemployment, welfare, food stamps, medicare, medicare...these are safety nets and must be preserved.

I mentioned the role model aspect and believe this is the most important residual and the main reason why you'll never get me to give up the message .... one role model showed me what was possible even coming from my background. I did the same for several others who in turn did the same for several others and the end result is one lifted many and in some cases via nothing more than 'seeing is believing' that it can be done.

 

[lwien]

I used to walk 25 miles to school in the snow with holes in my shoes......

 

[His_Highness]

I used to walk 25 miles to school in the snow with holes in my shoes......

Uphill both ways?

 

[Gunky]

Blah blah blah. You still believe people making less than you are picking your pocket. You propound this lovely Horatio Alger tale and say the only purpose is to inspire people not to give up. Unfortunately you keep letting the cat out of the bag and it is very clear what the real purpose of your argument is: don't take money away from me and give it to poor people ("of any demographic group" - code word for black); they just need to try harder. As I have mentioned 2 or 3 times, your money is getting sucked upward, not downward. At the state level, poor people are subsidizing you by paying a huge percentage of their incomes on taxes. You are getting special breaks from the government, such as mortgage interest deduction and deductions for your employer supplied health insurance (the health insurance deduction alone costs the government 250 billion a year. Food stamps are 67 billion). The poor don't get those. I could go on but clearly you want to believe your fantasy that every poor person is a Horatio Alger who just doesn't try and you prefer not to think about the way the top .1% are ripping us all off. The Bush tax cuts transferred several trillion dollars upward to the top 1%. Next to that all the welfare programs are peanuts. You have been brainwashed to think poor people are grabbing away your dough. Not true, but the myth helps repubs get people like you to vote against their own interests.

Just think for a second about people who work for minimum wage at a place like Walmart. They make so little they are eligible for food stamps and need them to get by. Who is being helped here, poor people or Walmart? Taxpayers are subsidizing Walmart's low wages. That huge sucking sound you hear is your money going upward to the 1%.

 

[His_Highness]

Blah blah blah. You still believe people making less than you are picking your pocket. You propound this lovely Horatio Alger tale and say the only purpose is to inspire people not to give up. Unfortunately you keep letting the cat out of the bag and it is very clear what the real purpose of your argument is: don't take money away from me and give it to poor people ("of any demographic group" - code word for black); they just need to try harder. As I have mentioned 2 or 3 times, your money is getting sucked upward, not downward. At the state level, poor people are subsidizing you by paying a huge percentage of their incomes on taxes. You are getting special breaks from the government, such as mortgage interest deduction and deductions for your employer supplied health insurance (the health insurance deduction alone costs the government 250 billion a year. Food stamps are 67 billion). The poor don't get those. I could go on but clearly you want to believe your fantasy that every poor person is a Horatio Alger who just doesn't try and you prefer not to think about the way the top .1% are ripping us all off. The Bush tax cuts transferred several trillion dollars upward to the top 1%. Next to that all the welfare programs are peanuts. You have been brainwashed to think poor people are grabbing away your dough. Not true, but the myth helps repubs get people like you to vote against their own interests.

Just think for a second about people who work for minimum wage at a place like Walmart. They make so little they are eligible for food stamps and need them to get by. Who is being helped here, poor people or Walmart? Taxpayers are subsidizing Walmart. That huge sucking sound you hear is your money going upward to the 1%.

If you knew the makeup of my family the last card you would play is the race card. Are your stereotypes showing or are you going to say your were repeating the repub line? In either case...bad form.

I get it though...your approach/solution is to repeat the negative facts to justify laying down and quitting ....... because it's all so insurmountable. To each his own...Your message is 'Woe is me' and mine is 'You can do it'.....I'll stick with mine.

If your wondering where I came to these conclusions .... its because you have not provided one single solution...positive or negative.... I on the other hand will continue to point out that if I can convince one person to succeed out of a bad situation I will have also affected those who come after and this my friend is not Horatio Alger or even Oliver Twist .... although I will admit that its closer to Oliver Twist because I want more and I want others to have more too.

 

[t-dub]

There is a family in my community I know personally, very successful. They came to this country speaking NO English and had NO money. Zero. It took everything they had just to get here. All they wanted was freedom and the chance to work hard and own and honest business. They now own a chain of Chinese restaurants. Not only are they successful because of all of their hard work, but they contribute to the community by creating many good jobs.

 

[CarolKing]

Hey guys you are going to get this thread shut down. Tone it down a bit.

 

[His_Highness]

Hey guys you are going to get this thread shut down. Tone it down a bit.

Thanks CK...I was starting to wonder where lwien was. Glad to know there are other non-mod types working the neighborhood watch. BTW...I'm not being sarcastic I really do appreciate the voice of reason.