Is it possible my Launch Box helps my pain better than my Vapor Warez?

[Vicki]

I have noticed that my pain is alleviated better when I use my new Magic Flight Launch Box vaporizer vs. when I use my Vapor Warez. Is that even possible?

 

[Beezleb]

Likely depend on the temperature used. Hard to define with the LB and VW.

Generally the hotter the temp the more analgesic but after getting a bag vape I can say in my case I am liking the middle temps best at 375 to 385. The lower temp is so much more clear headed and energetic, it is more sativa like in sensation but I also caution as I also believe the type of herb your using plays a great role in that as well but I need more experience before I can say that with more confidence and is just an opinion I have on the subject.

Since the LB and VW are so different in the heating it would be difficult to match vapor temps but I believe if you can better match the VW temp to where you are using it with the LB I think that would help you with the VW effects.

If the temp on the VW is too hot at higher temps for you, I cannot recommend enough the use of a bong or any system to cool the vapor.

Happy Vaping!

 

[tuttle]

Could it also be a dosing issue? Perhaps with the LB it is easier for you to find that analgesic window, i.e. not to little to be ineffective, not to much to be a pain amplifier.

 

[Beezleb]

Good point tuttle.

One thing I have noticed with my bag vape compared to the direct draw vape is that I do get more sensation from my bag vape. Bold statement.

But here is my reasoning why I think. You consume faster with a bag vape. Fill a bag, drain it, fill it, drain it until no more bags. My direct draw vape sessions simply takes much longer in comparison so I believe an even vapor to air ratio consumed in a normal but steady process will get you where you want to be faster in comparison.

However, if you use a bong with direct draw its a mute point as that increases the time frame to possibly even a bit faster than doing bags.

Anyways, you may be right on the amount and I think perhaps how long the session takes.

 

[lwien]

Could it also be a dosing issue? Perhaps with the LB it is easier for you to find that analgesic window, i.e. not to little to be ineffective, not to much to be a pain amplifier.

Bingo !!.

Most people think that for pain relief, the more bud you take in, the better, but there is a window that if opened too wide, could make the pain worse, or at least, seem worse. Best thing to do is to take a hit, wait 10 minutes to see if it has relieved your pain, and if not take another hit, but wait a bit to see if the second hit worked. If it did, stop there. Your purpose here is not to get high but to relieve the pain. Two different things, really.

 

[obelisk]

Most people think that for pain relief, the more bud you take in, the better, but there is a window that if opened too wide, could make the pain worse, or at least, seem worse.

Interesting. How would the leaf amplify pain or make it seem worse?

 

[lwien]

Most people think that for pain relief, the more bud you take in, the better, but there is a window that if opened too wide, could make the pain worse, or at least, seem worse.

Interesting. How would the leaf amplify pain or make it seem worse?

It's just been my experience, as well as many others, that too much of a good thing can be, well..............too much.

 

[Beezleb]

Ive not seen it nor have I seen it reported that it can increase pain in general use but everyone has a point to where they obtain pain relief and do not really want to much farther than that. I think that is the meaning of the statement but I could be wrong.

One of many ailments I live with is diverticulitis and if I get a seed weed does make the pain worse and by a lot. Other than that ailment its all pain relief for me.

 

[obelisk]

Most people think that for pain relief, the more bud you take in, the better, but there is a window that if opened too wide, could make the pain worse, or at least, seem worse.

Interesting. How would the leaf amplify pain or make it seem worse?

It's just been my experience, as well as many others, that too much of a good thing can be, well..............too much.

I have been smoking since 1994. Smoked minimum of 12 grams a day from 97-04. Never experienced what you are talking about regarding pain. But perhaps the leaf affects different folks differently (though, except from a psychological level, I totally doubt my last statement, except in a matter of degrees).

But I don't really understand how you are relating or equating 'too much' with mj 'making the pain worse, or, at least, seem worse'. While I agree that too much of a thing can be too much, definitely, I have much experience in that department, I fail to see how that explains how the leaf could, even potentially, if taken within a window 'opened too wide', or taken in relatively large quantities, amplify physical pain. I am under the impression that this is not physically possible. Though, it seems that you americans/westerners, for the most part, seem to know quite a bit about the science of the leaf, which is why I asked. I'd be very interested if someone has a more rational explanation to this.

Vicki: you are probably getting more pain relief from the LB than the VW because your drawing technique with the LB allows you to reach hotter temperatures than you probably are able to with the VW. This is just an assumption though, but I'd say a pretty logical one.

EDIT:

Ive not seen it nor have I seen it reported that it can increase pain in general use but everyone has a point to where they obtain pain relief and do not really want to much farther than that. I think that is the meaning of the statement but I could be wrong.

That makes much more sense to me.

One of many ailments I live with is diverticulitis and if I get a seed weed does make the pain worse and by a lot. Other than that ailment its all pain relief for me.

Ah, so seeds make your pain worse is what you are saying (sorry, did not get that earlier). That is very interesting. I have no reason to doubt you, nor am I doubting you now, but does anybody have an explanation as to why this phenomenon may potentially occur or be experienced (regardless of whether it is a real or perceived phenomenon)?

 

[wthanna]

"Too Much Cannabis and Pain Relief Goes Up in Smoke"

http://www.medpagetoday.com/PainManagement/PainManagement/7089

I have read similar on pain studies in the past. There does seem to be a "window" of best dosage for pain relief.
I believe the California study that was just published showed similar results... I'm at work right now so I'll try to dig that one up later... just thought I'd post this one real quick since I had a link to it handy

 

[obelisk]

"Too Much Cannabis and Pain Relief Goes Up in Smoke"

http://www.medpagetoday.com/PainManagement/PainManagement/7089

I have read similar on pain studies in the past. There does seem to be a "window" of best dosage for pain relief.

Thanks for the article. It is very interesting. I am still trying to understand it, it seems that there is nothing really in the article that confirms this is anything more than a speculation or an educated guess.

Also, I would say there is a difference between 'not offering pain relief' after a certain window vs. 'making the pain worse'. I don't really understand much of science, I am admittedly and unabashedly stupid, but I think the article is talking about diminishing returns of pain relief as opposed to actually augmenting pain instead of relieving it.

Or am I not reading the article correctly?

Thanks a lot for that though, I am gonna go back and try scratch my head through it!

 

[Beezleb]

Did you read that study, they say themselves:

"No conclusions on the analgesic efficacy of smoked cannabis on clinical pain states can be made from this study, as the relationship between analgesic effects in experimental pain and clinical pain states is unknown," the authors stated.

That study is not relevant in this situation as they are studying the effects of basically using hot peppers and giving someone a very small dosage of THC and saying, do you feel this.

From my experience with diverticulitis is that its en ever changing thing and not a steady pain. It rises to until it reaches a point in which is slowly releases. An attack last 8-12 hours on average for me and I am often balled up like a baby in extreme pain. Pain pills make me quite sick and nauseated badly and when I have an attack I end up have to decide which is worse. However, through diet I have effectively controlled this issue but makes it difficult to eat out. In a way, it is kinda funny that a little seed you can barely see can take me down hehe.

Anyways my point being, not all pain issues are leveled off and not all are the same. We are all unique models with different issues. Just as weed actually hurts me when I have a diverticulitis issue I know it is one of the things some docs in California genuinely write a script for. So it is helping some people just fine and I think its a matter of body chemistry, how bad the attack is and how severe the condition is. I have it to the point they want to operate but I am not going to be cut on. I just watch what I eat and now I may only end up with an attack a few times a year at worse.

 

[lwien]

I'd be very interested if someone has a more rational explanation to this.

I don't know if this is rational or not, but this is where I am coming from. I go to this one dispensary here who really targets the medical user rather than the recreational user. There really is a HUGE difference in the kind of dispensaries that exist here. Anyways, you can kind of get a sense of this by looking at their site: http://www.cornerstonecollective.com/view/index.php

So when I first went in, I had a lengthy conversation with the owner who informed me of this "window" regarding pain relief and suggested that I use very small doses until I reached the desired affect for relieving my pain, and not base it upon how high I am, and that less could actually be better. He said that through his vast experience of dealing with patients with end stage cancer as well as post op patients and in general, patients that are seeking pain relief, that this is so and it seems to be supported with some published reports as stated above.

Interesting little post that he posted here : http://www.weedtracker.com/forums/c...ity-side-effects-drug-interactions-62612.html

Now is he correct in everything that he has stated in that post above? I have no idea, but he sure as hell seems to be pretty qualified considering his credentials and the wide breadth of patients that he deals with on a day to day basis. It's pretty unusual to go to a place that is selling a product, and have that place tell you that it may be best to use less of that product than more.

 

[Beezleb]

Iwien I agree wholly with what you are saying about the window. I see it, I am in a group of people who deal with heavy medical problems and those that use understand it as well.

However from a recreational user stand point it comes off as we are saying that at some point in ones usage a persons pain can get worse. From a recreational user stand point is almost blasphemy. However I would add this would largely not be applicable to a recreational user and be more of an issue to a person with a medical problem and even then I would say it would vary. Generally I would say it does not make it worse as it just becomes less effective at treating pain with increased use. Now keep in mind the average recreational user who is not using for medical purposes would not properly relate to that as their focus is to get high where our focus is not always about the high but just trying to get through part of the day.

I see it as akin to a culture difference when it comes to understanding and likely would require the person to have to experience the need for pain relief on a regular basis to truly understand our unfortunate perspective.

Happy vaping to all!

 

[wthanna]

http://www.cmcr.ucsd.edu/geninfo/marijuana.htm

The latest studies are posted here. Very informative. Get educated and educate others as well as the ignorant prohibitionists around you!

 

[lwien]

What else kinda ties into this is people who use opiates recreationally and people who use opiates to relieve their pain. For many people that use opiates strictly for pain relief, many report that although it is relieving their pain, they are not getting high, for it is doing nothing more than just relieving their pain.

Not quite sure how this ties in here, but it is kinda interesting.

 

[lwien]

http://www.cmcr.ucsd.edu/geninfo/marijuana.htm

The latest studies are posted here. Very informative. Get educated and educate others as well as the ignorant prohibitionists around you!

Great link. The owner of CornerStone that I referred to above is also very involved with CMCR. I just wish that there were more legit dispensaries like this around town. I'm really fortunate to have found this one and got in before they closed their doors to any new members (although they will make exceptions for terminally ill patients).

 

[obelisk]

I'd be very interested if someone has a more rational explanation to this.

I don't know if this is rational or not, but this is where I am coming from. I go to this one dispensary here who really targets the medical user rather than the recreational user. There really is a HUGE difference in the kind of dispensaries that exist here. Anyways, you can kind of get a sense of this by looking at their site: http://www.cornerstonecollective.com/view/index.php

So when I first went in, I had a lengthy conversation with the owner who informed me of this "window" regarding pain relief and suggested that I use very small doses until I reached the desired affect for relieving my pain, and not base it upon how high I am, and that less could actually be better. He said that through his vast experience of dealing with patients with end stage cancer as well as post op patients and in general, patients that are seeking pain relief, that this is so and it seems to be supported with some published reports as stated above.

Interesting little post that he posted here : http://www.weedtracker.com/forums/c...ity-side-effects-drug-interactions-62612.html

As I mentioned earlier, the report linked to above (cannot view the post you linked to since I need to register to view it) speaks of a window of usage after which the benefits of pain relief might diminish. I do not see this as an increase in pain or making the pain worse. That is where I get confused.

In a way, it is kinda funny that a little seed you can barely see can take me down hehe.

lol

Anyways my point being, not all pain issues are leveled off and not all are the same. We are all unique models with different issues. Just as weed actually hurts me when I have a diverticulitis issue I know it is one of the things some docs in California genuinely write a script for. So it is helping some people just fine and I think its a matter of body chemistry, how bad the attack is and how severe the condition is. I have it to the point they want to operate but I am not going to be cut on. I just watch what I eat and now I may only end up with an attack a few times a year at worse.

Beezleb, that is very interesting and something I wasn't aware of. The comments you make, not your condition, I mean.

I can see how having a pre-existing physical or mental condition might affect how the leaf (or anything else) affects your body and mind. I just did/do not get how it could actually make physical pain worse. It is just something I have not experienced and with all my past MJ use, it seems very inconsistent to what I understand and have experienced the effects of MJ to be. Is all. Sorry if I came across as doubting you guys, I didn't mean to. Just was surprised at the initial comment and wanted to learn more.

Am I a medical or recreational user? I don't know. Marijuana does make my mood better, temporarily relieves my depression and just helps me be kinder to myself and to my family. It is a big part of who I am and also a big part of who I want to be. I do not see this as recreational use. :/

 

[lwien]

It is just something I have not experienced and with all my past MJ use, it seems very inconsistent to what I understand and have experienced the effects of MJ to be. Is all. Sorry if I came across as doubting you guys, I didn't mean to. Just was surprised at the initial comment and wanted to learn more.

I totally understand, obelisk. My experience with MJ is much longer than yours and I too was a bit surprised when I was first presented with the idea that less could be better than more when it comes to pain relief.

Nothing wrong with doubting for it encourages discussions like this, which, imho, is a very good thing.

 

[SimonC]

Vicky, if your VW is anything like mine, I'm not surprised you feel a difference. Compared to the DBV, the VW is almost useless. FWIW, mine is an older unit.

Simon

 

[lwien]

Vicky, if your VW is anything like mine, I'm not surprised you feel a difference. Compared to the DBV, the VW is almost useless. FWIW, mine is an older unit.

Simon

Really? I've heard good things about the VW.

 

[obelisk]

My experience with MJ is much longer than yours

Operative word being 'longer', then yes, that is true.

Also, I am not surprised that less can offer more pain relief than more (though, even this, imo, is a poorly phrased sentence that doesn't really communicate a truth-- 'marijuana ingested after a certain level will provide pain relieving effects in diminishing returns' is something I am more likely to agree with).

I am surprised, instead, by the claims that MJ, after a certain level of ingestion, can increase pre-existing physical pain. There is a difference between what you are now saying and what I was originally surprised by.

But Beezleb specifically reports experiencing more pain with MJ, esp with vaping a seed, and I have no reason to doubt him. But I puzzled by his findings and will volunteer, as politely as possible and with no intention of belittling Beezleb's health condition whatsoever, that perhaps this effect is either influenced by his pre-existing biological make-up and medical condition(s) or that it can be attributed to the wondrous incalculable ways the mind can perceive things.

 

[SimonC]

Vicky, if your VW is anything like mine, I'm not surprised you feel a difference. Compared to the DBV, the VW is almost useless. FWIW, mine is an older unit.

Simon

Really? I've heard good things about the VW.

<grin> I did, too, before I bought it. Let me give a working example. It takes at least 6-8X more draws from a VW, burning the throat with hot air, to match the amount of vapor coming out of the DBV. The process of vaporizing, in itself, is so much more efficient that a true comparison is almost pointless. I'm not exaggerating. It's a night and day difference. The newer VWs with ceramic elements may be better.

Simon

 

[Vicki]

Vicki: you are probably getting more pain relief from the LB than the VW because your drawing technique with the LB allows you to reach hotter temperatures than you probably are able to with the VW. This is just an assumption though, but I'd say a pretty logical one.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I can vap a lot less with the LB, and get better pain relief. For example, I can take 3 good hits from my LB, and my body pain is almost gone. It takes a lot more with the VW, probably double the amount. Unless I use hash or kief, which I have been lately.

 

[tuttle]

I am surprised, instead, by the claims that MJ, after a certain level of ingestion, can increase pre-existing physical pain.

Perhaps my choice of words was not spot in my original statement. I am not sure "increase the pain" is exactly right, but I find (this is speaking solely for me) being too high above the "window" I get into a zone where I am absolutely fixated on the pain. Is that making the pain worse? Perhaps not, but it is making it a lot more noticeable compared to not being medicated at all. Pain can be hard to quantify, so I'm not sure I can fully articulate what I am experiencing, but in general I find it is counterproductive from a pain standpoint to do too much.

Again this may be very different for different people and different pains, but this is my experience when using for chronic daily headache.