Is dabbing worth it?
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Mr Turnip
Well-Known Member
Cuthbert J Twillie
Senior High
I did quite a bit of research on dabbing a few years back I even did a vid on it (but took it down as my research progressed).
No.1 thing about dabbing is knowing what kind of concentrate you have.
Ice/bubble hash is made without the dangerous chemicals found in solvents (i.e. bute - if its still being used).
Bute based dabs are going to have traces of butane in the mix. There is no way to remove all the butane. Butane is a known carcinogen.
The key word to remember is "concentrate". If pesticides were used on the flower the pesticides will be concentrated.
I found the dab buzz not worth the trouble of firing up my non-electronic nail. I had a blob of concentrate lying around the house for a couple years and finally gave it to a needy college student. IMHO not worth the bother or potential health risks (this is my 49th year of using the sacrament and I haven't found much that is better than top shelf flowers, vaped).
No.1 thing about dabbing is knowing what kind of concentrate you have.
Ice/bubble hash is made without the dangerous chemicals found in solvents (i.e. bute - if its still being used).
Bute based dabs are going to have traces of butane in the mix. There is no way to remove all the butane. Butane is a known carcinogen.
The key word to remember is "concentrate". If pesticides were used on the flower the pesticides will be concentrated.
I found the dab buzz not worth the trouble of firing up my non-electronic nail. I had a blob of concentrate lying around the house for a couple years and finally gave it to a needy college student. IMHO not worth the bother or potential health risks (this is my 49th year of using the sacrament and I haven't found much that is better than top shelf flowers, vaped).
PDeleted Member 1643
Well-Known Member
Very good points. Make DIY shatter from home-grown plants with ethanol extraction. When purging under vacuum, eventually get to a point where the shatter still expands a little, but the solvent remains trapped. Not as much of a problem with ethanol. Winterizing butane shatter with several changes of ethanol should clean it up quite a bit, but that's more work. (It's what SkunkPharm recommends for hexane extractions.)
When purging at 250F, see the solvent bubbles stop and the CO2 bubbles begin. Expect the solvent has completely boiled off at that point. Of course, so have all the terps.
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Here where medium quality dabs are around 120USD/g I tend to just reserve it for weekends and one before bed.
Some how when through 1.5 g in 7 days I was honestly googling if it could evaporate haha. That’s because I tried to add what I thought was some conservative use outside the bedtime and weekend.... turns out I pigged out without even knowing.
My conservative use obviously turned very liberal before I even noticed. I only do small dabs but I think the last few days I was going bigger ones. Doesn’t seem like much but for me it easy to put twice as much as a standard dab on the dabbed for not much use.
If I had the money I’d predominantly dab, but I’ve been micro dosing somewhat and keeping tolerance low of late, for me that’s not possible if I tell myself I’ll dab when I please it disappears because dabbings great! YMMV based on self control
For comparison a 1/4 of herb is half the price of a gram at around 60-65 USD usually.
Some how when through 1.5 g in 7 days I was honestly googling if it could evaporate haha. That’s because I tried to add what I thought was some conservative use outside the bedtime and weekend.... turns out I pigged out without even knowing.
My conservative use obviously turned very liberal before I even noticed. I only do small dabs but I think the last few days I was going bigger ones. Doesn’t seem like much but for me it easy to put twice as much as a standard dab on the dabbed for not much use.
If I had the money I’d predominantly dab, but I’ve been micro dosing somewhat and keeping tolerance low of late, for me that’s not possible if I tell myself I’ll dab when I please it disappears because dabbings great! YMMV based on self control
For comparison a 1/4 of herb is half the price of a gram at around 60-65 USD usually.
CANtalk
Well-Known Member
Sorry, but that's some terrible research and info. Butane is not a carcinogen. There are literally butane occupational exposure limits of 800 ppm allowed for workers 8 hrs per day 5 days per week for what can be multiple decades of work, for example.
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ataxian
PALE BLUE DOT
I switched 2 ROSIN.
BHO SHATTER & CRUMBLES were my go 2!
Not 4 health reasons.
FLAVOR is why I SWITCHED!
CALIFORNIA is where I was born & raised!
CANNABIS is clean and very NATURAL.
DABBING came from INDIA (we threw away small nuggets after harvest)
Now daze concentrate’s are made from the waste!
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Tranquility
Well-Known Member
I agree. One data sheet has 1000ppm before safety equipment. (https://www.praxair.com/-/media/cor...df?la=en&rev=b4b6401855524c07a5e6793ad88db23a) But, the problem is most of that is to deal with acute exposure. The speed it is eliminated from the body indicates it is unlikely to bioaccumulate. (See data sheet.) Cancer incidence, however, has not been studied-even without bioaccumulation.
https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+944 (In part):
No studies on carcinogenicity, reproduction toxicity and teratogenicity, immunotoxicity or allergy were located in the available literature.
And concluded:Occupational exposure of 53 male refinery workers for an average of 11 years to n-butane (concentration varied from 0.0004 mg/l to 0.0178 mg/l) did not cause any clinical symptoms in the workers. ... In conclusion, exposure to low concentrations of n-butane has not been reported to cause adverse effects in humans.
Edit:
New Jersey would disagree. They claim it a carcinogen in humans because it has been shown to cause skin cancer in animals.
https://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/0685.pdf
CANtalk
Well-Known Member
FWIW, an occupational exposure limit such as on the 800 ppm is not an acute exposure. And that link is not butane. I postulate there's a very basic reason why butane has not been studied for carcinogenicity, etc. This is basic stuff for those trained in these areas.
Tranquility
Well-Known Member
You mean the link in the "edit", right? My mistake.
Tranquility
Well-Known Member
double post, please delete
Cuthbert J Twillie
Senior High
Sorry CANtalk, but you are wrong (in a way), while butane is not a carcinogen itself in its commercially produced state it contains benzene. Benzene causes leukemia.
Research (from the Science Daily website):
Cancerous toxins linked to cannabis extract
Date:
September 26, 2017
Source:
Portland State University
Summary:
Researchers have found benzene and other potentially cancer-causing chemicals in the vapor produced by butane hash oil, a cannabis extract.
Tranquility
Well-Known Member
Benzene is mainly a result of terpene degradation from heat. I don't see it as a byproduct of butane extraction in anything I've skimmed. (But, am already out of my ability to fully understand.)
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acsomega.7b01130
Degradation products from myrcene, limonene, linalool, and Fire OG cannabis terpenes, a commercially available mix specifically fabricated for terp dipping, were monitored.Supporting Information). Their levels were quantified by NMR using an internal standard.
Stating:Degradant Formation Mechanism
We propose that the formation of MC and benzene occurs via isoprene as an intermediate (Scheme 1). The GC–MS spectra of limonene, linalool, and myrcene all displayed significant peaks tentatively assigned to isoprene, which suggests that these terpenes, the major terpenes in BHO, break down to their isoprene monomers before further degradation.
Studies of the atmospheric chemistry of isoprene have shown that it reacts with hydroxyl radicals and O2 to form not only MC and HCHO but also methyl vinyl ketone and 3-methylfuran. The GC–MS analysis of each pure terpene studied afforded a tentative identification with a high match quality of MC, methyl vinyl ketone, and 3-methylfuran, as well as 1,3-butadiene and several cyclic and acyclic dienes, polyenes, and aromatics (Scheme 1 and Supporting Information).
We propose that the formation of MC and benzene occurs via isoprene as an intermediate (Scheme 1). The GC–MS spectra of limonene, linalool, and myrcene all displayed significant peaks tentatively assigned to isoprene, which suggests that these terpenes, the major terpenes in BHO, break down to their isoprene monomers before further degradation.
Studies of the atmospheric chemistry of isoprene have shown that it reacts with hydroxyl radicals and O2 to form not only MC and HCHO but also methyl vinyl ketone and 3-methylfuran. The GC–MS analysis of each pure terpene studied afforded a tentative identification with a high match quality of MC, methyl vinyl ketone, and 3-methylfuran, as well as 1,3-butadiene and several cyclic and acyclic dienes, polyenes, and aromatics (Scheme 1 and Supporting Information).
CANtalk
Well-Known Member
@OldNewbie, yup and thx. Just trying to get accurate info out there.
On an interesting related note, benzene is found in significant concentrations in ambient air quality, especially in urban areas. Most people are breathing in significant benzene concentrations just by living.
The actual concern in that study is something that has already been identified many times before - high temp dabbing. OTOH, there are vape options for dabbing that don't even reach the temps identified where benzene is generated. My desktop vape doesn't reach the temp of concern identified in that study (>520 C).
Then there is the actual risk which should be the major consideration. Have you looked at the concentrations and toxicology? Carcinogenicity is quite a bit more ubiquitous that most everyone realizes. Coffee is a carcinogen. Deep fried foods have carcinogens; potato chips are bad bad bad for acrolein. Cell phone use is a carcinogen. Then there's living. Just living is a cause of cancer, a very high cause of cancer too, estimated at one in three over one's lifetime.
Decisions on an acceptable level of risk are a personal choice and come from accurate and robust risk evaluation and information. There is no right or wrong decision. OTOH, having good, true and helpful information is very important to making that decision. So I'm here trying to help give such info so that people can make more-informed personal decisions and choices. Hope it helps.
Cheers
I'm not wrong. It isn't butane. You are drawing erroneous conclusions. Details matter. If you are talking about benzene then say it directly. Benzene is obviously not butane. Have you looked at that study methodology and the detailed results? Because the study you quote isn't finding benzene in their results from "commercial preparations".
On an interesting related note, benzene is found in significant concentrations in ambient air quality, especially in urban areas. Most people are breathing in significant benzene concentrations just by living.
The actual concern in that study is something that has already been identified many times before - high temp dabbing. OTOH, there are vape options for dabbing that don't even reach the temps identified where benzene is generated. My desktop vape doesn't reach the temp of concern identified in that study (>520 C).
Then there is the actual risk which should be the major consideration. Have you looked at the concentrations and toxicology? Carcinogenicity is quite a bit more ubiquitous that most everyone realizes. Coffee is a carcinogen. Deep fried foods have carcinogens; potato chips are bad bad bad for acrolein. Cell phone use is a carcinogen. Then there's living. Just living is a cause of cancer, a very high cause of cancer too, estimated at one in three over one's lifetime.
Decisions on an acceptable level of risk are a personal choice and come from accurate and robust risk evaluation and information. There is no right or wrong decision. OTOH, having good, true and helpful information is very important to making that decision. So I'm here trying to help give such info so that people can make more-informed personal decisions and choices. Hope it helps.
Cheers
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Cuthbert J Twillie
Senior High
My apologies CANtalk, I tried to recall the data from the top of my head. You are correct, benzene not butane is the problem in BHO. I hope that doesn't mean our on-line friendship is off to an inauspicious start.
""It's not a huge amount of benzene, but any benzene ingestion is concerning," he said." - Marijuana News -
Updated Oct 30, 2017; Posted Sep 25, 2017
I'm sorry i forgot the name of the specific chemical, but a rose by any other name . . .
My point is when new people are asking questions, I as a responsible adult will share information that has helped me form my opinion. If you like dabbing, rock on. It's no skin off my nose. I'll reiterate my original statement with the noted nomenclature adjusted.
If you use BHO you stand a great chance of inhaling a known carcinogen (benzene). If you choose to do this that's fine with me. We all have to live our own lives. Flowers suit me and that's after 49 years of experimentation.
Tranquility
Well-Known Member
The fact it is BHO is not relevant. It is the terpenes in the dab that, combined with heat, makes the benzene.
If you look at the charts on cannabis in general, benzene is a recognized issue. I suspect it is from the process I linked above, but some may just be a byproduct of the plant itself.
darbarikanada
Well-Known Member
do you happen to know off-hand at what temperature benzene is generated?
...and, like magic, a chart was posted while I wrote!
Tranquility
Well-Known Member
I put up the chart, but there are problems with it. Many would point out the boiling point listed is NOT for the item contained in plant material but for the chemical alone under standard pressure.
A better estimate of temps that cause the problem can be found in a previous link:
Given the wide diversity of the terpenes present in BHO, the relatively high abundance of myrcene and the similarity of the products from each of the terpenes studied (Table 1 and Scheme 1), we focused on myrcene as a model terpene in evaluating the effect of temperature on the yields of MC and benzene. Assuming 40 mg as an average size dab,Figure 1.
Because dabbing topography has not been previously investigated, we chose an inhalation volume of 338 mL and a 10 s duration to assure a more complete collection of vapor. The concentrations of MC in ppb per dab in this regime are 185 ± 11 ppb at Tm = 526 °C, 157 ± 2 ppb at Tm = 455 °C, 131 ± 9 ppb at Tm = 403 °C, and undetectable at Tm = 322 °C.
Benzene was not detected below the highest TR. Using the same rationale as above for MC emission, one dab of BHO delivers 17 ng of benzene. Represented as a concentration in the draw volume, this value is 15 ± 1.8 ppb.
So it seems 455°C might be a good harm reduction temp for benzene issues.Because dabbing topography has not been previously investigated, we chose an inhalation volume of 338 mL and a 10 s duration to assure a more complete collection of vapor. The concentrations of MC in ppb per dab in this regime are 185 ± 11 ppb at Tm = 526 °C, 157 ± 2 ppb at Tm = 455 °C, 131 ± 9 ppb at Tm = 403 °C, and undetectable at Tm = 322 °C.
Benzene was not detected below the highest TR. Using the same rationale as above for MC emission, one dab of BHO delivers 17 ng of benzene. Represented as a concentration in the draw volume, this value is 15 ± 1.8 ppb.
Benzene is one of those things us vaporizer advocates like to exaggerate. People have been inhaling benzene since humans started smoking cannabis... and it still hasn't killed anybody.
CANtalk
Well-Known Member
@Cuthbert J Twillie, no problem. I hope you don't take any offense to me contradicting you there either 
. Nice, but don't think that the benzene comes from the butane in the BHO dab or from a BHO dab only. As @OldNewbie points out a few times, the benzene measured is coming from high temperature chemistry reactions with cannabis plant material constituents. If it were natural cannabis and combusted, benzene would still be created and measurable at likely even more significant concentrations. This isn't about BHO per se, it's about high temp vaporization and the associated chemical reactions. And that won't be surprising to people who are familiar with the sources of benzene in the environment; combustion of organic compounds is a major source of benzene (such as fossil fuels).
So the benzene concentration measured in the air draw from the dab was 15 ppb. Now look at the average ambient outdoor air concentration of benzene in the US; it's around 1 μg/m3, which is 1 ppm or 1000 ppb! And indoor air quality is way worse! Most no one realizes how significant ambient indoor air quality exposures are. WHO reported...
That's the same as 2600 to 5800 ppb! So comparing 15 ppb benzene in the air draw from a dab in that scientific peer-reviewed study is not so potentially concerning compared to the average benzene exposure in everyday outdoor/indoor air which is typically ~ 1000 to 4000 times higher in concentration.
Unless something is wrong with those estimates I'd be much more worried about benzene exposure through indoor and outdoor living than doing a dab at this time. YMMV.
Cheers
. Nice, but don't think that the benzene comes from the butane in the BHO dab or from a BHO dab only. As @OldNewbie points out a few times, the benzene measured is coming from high temperature chemistry reactions with cannabis plant material constituents. If it were natural cannabis and combusted, benzene would still be created and measurable at likely even more significant concentrations. This isn't about BHO per se, it's about high temp vaporization and the associated chemical reactions. And that won't be surprising to people who are familiar with the sources of benzene in the environment; combustion of organic compounds is a major source of benzene (such as fossil fuels).This quote is misleading in my opinion and experience. Sure, benzene inhalation should be avoided ideally, but the previously mentioned study measured benzene exposure well below (less than half) 1 μg per draw. They literally measured in nanograms or the ppb range. Quoted from that study,
So the benzene concentration measured in the air draw from the dab was 15 ppb. Now look at the average ambient outdoor air concentration of benzene in the US; it's around 1 μg/m3, which is 1 ppm or 1000 ppb! And indoor air quality is way worse! Most no one realizes how significant ambient indoor air quality exposures are. WHO reported...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK138708/
That's the same as 2600 to 5800 ppb! So comparing 15 ppb benzene in the air draw from a dab in that scientific peer-reviewed study is not so potentially concerning compared to the average benzene exposure in everyday outdoor/indoor air which is typically ~ 1000 to 4000 times higher in concentration.
Unless something is wrong with those estimates I'd be much more worried about benzene exposure through indoor and outdoor living than doing a dab at this time. YMMV.
Cheers
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Chickenhawk
Well-Known Member
Bought my first rig yesterday. Got a quartz banger with it. So far I've just used shatter. To this point, when I've used concentrates I've just been making sandwiches in my desktop vape. It's like night and day.
When it comes to temps, I've been torching the banger for 30 seconds and then waiting 30-60 before hitting it. For a low temp dab should I be waiting longer?
When it comes to temps, I've been torching the banger for 30 seconds and then waiting 30-60 before hitting it. For a low temp dab should I be waiting longer?
Madri-Gal
Child Of The Revolution
I'm sorry I don't know, but I wanted to congratulate you 9n your rig and banger. I'm sure you'll have many happy hours.
Chickenhawk
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I'm looking forward to bonding with my new friend. Maybe I should give her a name.
I'm still getting used to it, obviously.