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[mcscruffy]

Wouldn't leaving your corporate job to start your own business and take control of your labor value inherently be a capitalist action rather than socialist?

I have no dog in this fight beyond reading but I thought that was objectively funny

 

[Bazinga]

Yes. You want business owners to get paid for "risk" instead of work. That's the risk. Boo hoo.



You've never heard, "meet the old boss, same as the old boss"? Every boss wants to pay their workers as little as they can get away with. That's why I posted Wolf's video. He's a teacher, who explains things simply. A valid job, btw. Even if he's a Marxist.

Also, in our shithole country, leaving a job means losing your healthcare. Because your employer controls your access to healthcare.



You're very wrong. I've been self employed for the past 8 years. Prior to that, I was a manager at a fortune 100 Company. Funny enough, learning about socialism is what convinced me to take control over my own labor value. I'm in a lucky position though, so I understand most people can't do this.

I work with mid-sized business owners and corporate executives every single day.



Well, at the very least enough to afford a one bedroom apartment near the job, transportation, and healthcare. If the business scumbag employing them doesn't pay them at least that, they aren't "job creators" they're leeches.

Bazinga. You are a fan of The Expanse. I don't remember if the show discusses this, but the crew of the Rocinante are socialists. They split every dime their ship makes equally among the crew. And they vote democratically on what contracts they take.



The vast majority of people don't have the collateral necessary to take out such a loan either. They won't have that collateral EVER. Are you sure I'm the one who doesn't live in the real world?

You are aware that generally speaking that the greater the risk the greater reward.

I haven't worked in the corporate arena for quite some time. Back then Obama made sure that health insurance was transferable (as long as he new company offered it) and as long as it is the same state. I really don't remember the exact details. Sorry about that. You still had to pay for it and maybe the new company was offering better and cheaper coverage.

Yeah, I got hooked on the Expanse. I could suggest that many shows favor capitalism as well.

I do agree with you on the collateral issue. I was just presenting a general scenario. Many times the factory building and contents (equipment and inventory are used for collateral) and the home remains outside of the equation. I will say some banks will lend you $250,000 if you already have $250,000 at your disposal. I think some banks require you put your kids up for collateral accompanied by your testicles.

And yes I live in the real world (sometimes I wish I didn't) and have negotiated multi million dollar loans. It was actually a little depressing. The company I retired from, over the course of many years, earned revenues of several billion dollars. I was responsible, among other things, for our 401k plan, I installed a partially self insured health plan and many many more corporate and employee related plans. I may be wrong about certain things (just ask my wife) but I am quite experienced and have done just about everything in the business world. Now I never did try to build a pencil factory. BTW- I don't know what I would pay a eraser installer. I would not share my hard earned profits with him/her. However, I would give every effort to pay an appropriate wage that is in fact commensurate with the task at hand. Come to think of it we never paid minimum wage. Remember the old adage - you get what you pay for.

Your original post was clear, I was just attempting to point out what I saw as hypocrisy in your messaging and discussion points.

It seems to me that you are quick to dismiss Wolff and his points because he is a socialist. If not dismissal, possibly a misrepresentation or misunderstanding because I saw the video as being more about how a business owner is stealing from their employees based on the value of their labour vs their remuneration not how much these employees should be paid per se. The argument could be extended to you and your bank loan as you were basically being forced to pay way more than you borrowed I would imagine and as you have highlighted, probably had to put up something of value you own to secure the loan, and for what? To ensure some of those at the bank can “earn” bonuses.

Anyway, if as seems to be case, you are less prepared to accept arguments from socialists, I would be interested to know who you would accept criticism of capitalism from?

Thanks for clearing that up. I dismiss Wolff because I don't subscribe to socialism. Just as many dismiss me because I believe in capitalism. It's okay because I've found there is generally some truth to either side of debate.

Clear this up for me. Are you suggesting that banks lend money sans interest. Oh I accept the criticism of of capitalism. Just look at the posts directed against me. I can accept the criticism but I don't have agree with it. Look, some of those posts have provided excellent compelling information. At the end of the day you won't change my mind and I won't change yours. We can exchange opposing thoughts and ideas without changing our minds on the core disagreement. I'm okay with this. How about you?

 

[sedentree]

Clear this up for me. Are you suggesting that banks lend money sans interest.

No, I am not suggesting that. What I was suggesting is that in your scenario, the bank is like the employer and the loanee is like the employee if we consider what Wolff says about the stealing of labour.

We can exchange opposing thoughts and ideas without changing our minds on the core disagreement. I'm okay with this. How about you?

Absolutely, I think opposing thoughts can be shared between participants in a debate/an argument. I think it can be hard to engage in the discussion when I also believe that many of your opposing points, purposefully or otherwise, are generally not a true response to whatever post you are replying to and that the ideas you postulate could be seen, as I have previously stated, as straw man arguments that do not meaningfully move the conversation along. But that is how I read things, and I should bear in mind that text based discussions are inherently difficult to ascertain tone and so forth.

 

[florduh]

Wouldn't leaving your corporate job to start your own business and take control of your labor value inherently be a capitalist action rather than socialist?

Oh I make that joke all the time! Just saw someone I hadn't run into in a decade. She asked, what's new. I said, well... I became a communist. And a small business owner

To answer your question... a socialist believes workers should receive as close to 100% of the value their labor creates as possible. I make my money from my labor, not by owning capital. The irony here isn't lost on me though!

 

[mcscruffy]

Oh I make that joke all the time! Just saw someone I hadn't run into in a decade. She asked, what's new. I said, well... I became a communist. And a small business owner

To answer your question... a socialist believes workers should receive as close to 100% of the value their labor creates as possible. I make my money from my labor, not by owning capital. The irony here isn't lost on me though!

That's a quite well-rounded reply!

I've enjoyed reading both your and @Bazinga's debate and exchanges. I can honestly say you both are teaching me some things and giving me other things to consider.

I truly appreciate the minimal toxicity!

 

[Bazinga]

Oh I make that joke all the time! Just saw someone I hadn't run into in a decade. She asked, what's new. I said, well... I became a communist. And a small business owner

To answer your question... a socialist believes workers should receive as close to 100% of the value their labor creates as possible. I make my money from my labor, not by owning capital. The irony here isn't lost on me though!

How would we determine value of labor?

 

[florduh]

How would we determine value of labor?

Richard Wolf goes through an example calculation in the video. That's why I posted it!

In short, under capitalism, every worker is paid less than the value they're adding. That's where profit comes from!

 

[vapviking]

This is exhausting.

 

[Bazinga]

This is exhausting.

Tell me about it. I`ve been recovering from 2 medical procedures and have been bored out of my mind. This is why I`ve posted so much lately. I'm amazed how many posters are confrontational because I have a different opinion. I've been accused of all sorts of stuff. Although some posts have been very informative and pleasent. I don't want socialism and have been condemned (fortunately not by everyone) for stating this. If everyone just chilled out we may arrive at a solution together that resolves the social issues that have been a concern for all of us. It amazes me that so many folks favor socialism over capitalism. It is their right to feel this way and I respect that. But geez give me a break. Just trying to start conversations and have people present their views. So, soon I will be be posting much less to the happiness of many here.

I do wish that people take a look at countries that have embraced full socialism. They would see the deleterious effects it has on their citizens. I do receive quite a few articles that support socialism. They are usually generated by a socialist. Not too surprising that they support that construct. I have already stated that some variations of socialism (healthcare for all, etc.) work suitably. On the other hand the theory of income equally leaves a lot to be examined. Utopia doesn't exist. Can someone please tell me where income equality exists and innovation has has not diminished. Don't suggest Cuba. If you think Cuba is the answer I encourage you to visit. Although they do have great old automobiles.

 

[florduh]

Ok, Britain you get one more chance. Don't fuck it up again! Do you want Nigel Farage as your PM and Charles as your king? Because you picked BoJo last time.

MP Zarah Sultana says she will ‘co-lead’ new party as she quits Labour for Corbyn group

Coventry South MP, who lost whip last year, surprises some in Corbyn’s Independent Alliance with news of formal plans

www.theguardian.com

I thought about Corbyn after Zohran won. They tried running a Corbyn-style antisemitism smear campaign on him too. It failed, in the most Jewish city on Earth. I don't think that shit works so good anymore

If you think Cuba is the answer I encourage you to visit.

It's illegal. Trump banned it and Brandon never fully overturned the ban. I'd love to though since they cured fucking cancer, lol!

Cuba has a lung cancer vaccine. Many U.S. patients can’t get it without breaking the law

President Trump’s tightened travel to Cuba makes it harder to go there. Some U.S. cancer patients say they have no other options.

www.usatoday.com

Vietnam, Cuba sign new biotech pacts aimed at cancer drug, vaccine development

Vietnam’s Green Economics Institute and Cuba’s Labiofam Group signed a framework agreement on Saturday to jointly research, develop, produce and commercialize biotech products in medical and agricultural fields, including cancer treatments.

news.tuoitre.vn

lol

China’s Sichuan University overtakes Stanford, MIT, Oxford in science research

Leading global educational institutes have been eclipsed by a university in southwest China, according to the latest Nature Index.

www.scmp.com

lmao

US cuts to science and technology could fast-track China’s tech dominance | The Strategist

Is the United States now trying to lose the technology race with China? It certainly seems to be. The race is tight, and now the Trump administration is slashing funding for the three national institutions ...

www.aspistrategist.org.au

 

[Rodney]

Guys PLEASE PLEASE jump to 6 minutes 20 seconds and listen to this.

This is worse than anything he has said before. His mind is going.

 

[florduh]

Happy Fourth of July! American soldiers are caught on camera cheering and celebrating as they gleefully gun down starving Palestinians in Gaza.

US contractors say their colleagues are firing live ammo as Palestinians seek food in Gaza

American contractors guarding aid distribution sites in Gaza are using live ammunition and stun grenades as hungry Palestinians scramble for food, according to accounts and videos obtained by The Associated Press.

apnews.com

Video of US contractors cheering after firing at Gaza civilians ignites fury online

Clip published in AP report saying American contractors guarding aid sites fired live ammunition at Palestinians seeking food

www.middleeasteye.net

 

[Bazinga]

Wouldn't leaving your corporate job to start your own business and take control of your labor value inherently be a capitalist action rather than socialist?

I have no dog in this fight beyond reading but I thought that was objectively funny

I think it's great that he/she took the leap. Having your own business is exciting and scary at the same time. Kudos for taking control of his life.

Absolutely, I think opposing thoughts can be shared between participants in a debate/an argument. I think it can be hard to engage in the discussion when I also believe that many of your opposing points, purposefully or otherwise, are generally not a true response to whatever post you are replying to and that the ideas you postulate could be seen, as I have previously stated, as straw man arguments that do not meaningfully move the conversation along. But that is how I read things, and I should bear in mind that text based discussions are inherently difficult to ascertain tone and so forth.

Please be assured that I have not purposely posted non-true. responses. If I did (please point it out) and I apologize for any confusion. Your straw man argument is unfounded. I have not personally attacked any poster on this forum. Well, that's not quite true as I referred to someone as foolish. This was a mistake and I again apologize. Although, I didn't think "foolish" was a horrible word but nonetheless it won't happen again.
My posts have always addresses comments and criticisms from other posters in a meaningful manner in order to educate and be for me to educated. I've read some great stuff here. In fact, my posts are meant to move the conversation along. And I believe it's succeeded. Just look at the multitude of responses. Sometimes tones are extremely easily to identify. Just see the posts that use profanity or, without any evidence, accuse people of being anti Islamic, anti Muslim, anti semitic, etc.

Thank you for for providing constructive criticism.

 

[sedentree]

Your straw man argument is unfounded. I have not personally attacked any poster on this forum.

This particular element of your post is to me yet another example of what I am referring to. I have stated that I read a lot of your comments as straw man positions. You refute this, and then immediately follow that up to highlight you have not attacked anyone (although you do go on to highlight this is not a fully true statement). To take a straw man position does not mean that you are attacking somebody. Instead of engaging with my point, your statement has created a distorted version of my point - this is what I think of when I think of straw man arguments. At no point have I indicated you attacked anybody.

Another example I would pick out is in your response to a video about how profit is theft, #5,857 . I believe that by dismissing the author's view based on their political views and then moving the conversation to try and seek an answer on what the value of somebody's labour is indicative of not engaging with the point of the video and is somewhat misleading and not advancing the conversation.

One final example, although there are others, is your response to a couple of articles I shared, #5,850 , where you admit not to having read the articles but are able to present "alternative" points and questions. Again, you may be doing this purposefully, you may not be. You may believe it moved the conversation along. I do not, as to me, it was an oversimplification and misrepresentation of the points raised in the article, which again, you happily state you did not engage with.

To conclude, the way that I see your arguments, as I read this thread, is that your points, questions and responses to others are not engaging the actual point and rather allow for a false version to be presented and argued with.

I have no doubt you will respond to this message, and I would imagine it will be in a similar fashion to all other interactions I have seen you partake in, and so please be aware, at this point, I am now beyond interested in engaging further. You may consider this a win, you may not, but this (i.e. my lack of further engagement) is the result of my reading of the things you post.

Thanks for your time.

 

[macbill]

‘You’re Not an American’: Bannon Rips Musk’s Third-Party Scheme

After Steve Bannon falsely claimed the world’s richest person isn’t American, Musk fired back by calling Bannon a “fat, drunken slob.”

www.thedailybeast.com

 

[Bazinga]

In short, under capitalism, every worker is paid less than the value they're adding. That's where profit comes from!

This is worse than anything he has said before. His mind is going.

This is worse than anything he has said before. His mind is going.

This particular element of your post is to me yet another example of what I am referring to. I have stated that I read a lot of your comments as straw man positions. You refute this, and then immediately follow that up to highlight you have not attacked anyone (although you do go on to highlight this is not a fully true statement). To take a straw man position does not mean that you are attacking somebody. Instead of engaging with my point, your statement has created a distorted version of my point - this is what I think of when I think of straw man arguments. At no point have I indicated you attacked anybody.

Another example I would pick out is in your response to a video about how profit is theft, #5,857 . I believe that by dismissing the author's view based on their political views and then moving the conversation to try and seek an answer on what the value of somebody's labour is indicative of not engaging with the point of the video and is somewhat misleading and not advancing the conversation.

One final example, although there are others, is your response to a couple of articles I shared, #5,850 , where you admit not to having read the articles but are able to present "alternative" points and questions. Again, you may be doing this purposefully, you may not be. You may believe it moved the conversation along. I do not, as to me, it was an oversimplification and misrepresentation of the points raised in the article, which again, you happily state you did not engage with.

To conclude, the way that I see your arguments, as I read this thread, is that your points, questions and responses to others are not engaging the actual point and rather allow for a false version to be presented and argued with.

I have no doubt you will respond to this message, and I would imagine it will be in a similar fashion to all other interactions I have seen you partake in, and so please be aware, at this point, I am now beyond interested in engaging further. You may consider this a win, you may not, but this (i.e. my lack of further engagement) is the result of my reading of the things you post.

Thanks for your time.

I looked up the definition of straw man on 3 different sites to be sure I had a complete understanding of what you alluding to. You are incorrect !! Although I can see how you could (however erroneously) derive at your conclusion. No hard feelings. The rules on this forum under General Forum Etiquette instructs us to "Stay on topic. Please avoid derailing or side -tracking discussions". I have received no warnings for this. In fact, so far, no other member has made any comments similar to yours. How's this - anyone on the forum who thinks I am strawman feel free to let me know. Your answer cannot be that you agree without providing facts to support your claim. If more folks agree with the strawman claim I promise to alter my writing style. What more can I do?

Yes I did admit I hadn't fully read the article. I did this for full disclosure. You criticized me as you stated: "I believe that by dismissing the author's view based on their political views and then moving the conversation to try and seek an answer on what the value of somebody's labour... " You are absolutely correct. I have in fact dismissed his view based on the fact that he is a socialist. He did not present a meaningful explanation of what labor is worth. I haven't seen a reasonable explanation yet. At least capitalism provides an explanation. Many won't agree but please provide a realistic empirical explanation of that value. Wolff indicated that the owner should share equally in what he calls profit. There is so much wrong with that theory and I'd be happy to explain if you ask. And I did watch the video. I suppose you have not read any book, publication, etc. by the simple minded folks who claim the earth is flat. I haven't read any either. And yet I can claim with certainly that the earth is not nor ever has been flat. Floraduh, I hope you are listening. Wolff is an intelligent and very educated man who attended top notch colleges (that would never let me in). I'm kind of amazed with his views as he has Masters Degree in Economics (I almost did my PhD in economics). His point of view on operating a business is abysmal at best. I couldn't find 1 piece of evidence that indicated that he ever held any kind of working man job or any job at all. Before you jump down my throat I am stating i was unable find such meaning and perhaps the evidence is there I just didn't see it. Folks like me who are also educated and also ran businesses, studied businesses, etc. are much more knowledgeable in this area. I would debate Wolff anytime on business operations. I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable debating him on socialism as that is his expertise not mine. Incidentally, Wolff's definition of profit is close but inaccurate. Moreover that hamburger store did not make a profit of $3,000. Not even close. Let's talk about costs. Rent (maybe mortgage instead), business licensing and permits, heat light and power, advertising, maintenance costs, FICA, federal and state unemployment taxes, workers compensation, business insurance, etc. If you haven't run a business I think you would amazed as to how costly it is. Who, the owner or the employee, may lie awake at night worrying about the business. Worried what the health, fire, insurance people are going to due after their visit. How much will it cost to remedy what they find. Yeah, bring Wolff on. How do I control costs, food quality, pricing, etc. The hamburger maker is not on the same plane. He should, however, be compensated fairly.

Now before I sign off. If you want to call me names, labels, whatever call we wordy and nerdy. It would be indefensible.

Also, Sedentry please lighten up and don't bail out. Your input is valuable and worthwhile. You never have to agree with me or anyone else.

Damn, I did another long post !!