Indica or Sativa for vaporizing ?

[lwien]

Sativas has a higher THC content than Indicas. which have a higher CBD content, and being that vaping primarily targets THC, does it make sense that Sativa's would be the better choice for vaporizing?

 

[Acolyte of Zinglon]

you cant really ask a question of whats "better" on a matter of personal preference such as this, tastes vary

 

[lwien]

you cant really ask a question of whats "better" on a matter of personal preference such as this, tastes vary

Hmmmmmm............and here I thought it was a pretty valid question, considering that vaporizing basically targets THC and leaves the CBD/CBN's alone, which is one of the main reasons why vapping gives you more of a clear head high than a couch-lock high, that the CBD's offer. My first thought was that being that the THC content is higher in Sativa's, that it would be a better choice for vaporizing..........regardless of my personal tastes. I could be wrong though, and would welcome further discussion.

If I wanted the "stoner" high that CBD's offer, I would be smoking, not vaporizing Indica's, no?

I may be answering my own question here, but I'd really like to know if my logic makes any sense.

 

[Ben]

hello lwien, bonjour tout le monde


I am not a professional of that thing (I've just started vapin' a few months ago) but here is what I found on a french forum dealing with this topic ; these are starting temperatures to initiate the vaporization of some of the various substances we're interested in .
THC: from 155-157 C
CBN: from 185 C
CBD: from 187-190
( sorry ... this is in celsius )

so, I would say that you can "select" which substance you want to vaporize if you choose the correct temperature (assuming there is still some substance in your test material).
Or should I say ... you can choose to vape CBN & CDN if you are likely to reach these temperatures with your device.



this was just my ; please anyone, feel free to complete or correct these comments if needed




au revoir

 

[lwien]

Hello Ben

My bad. What I failed to mention is that I was primarily referring to the use of the Purple Days which has a fixed heating temp but regardless, doesn't going into those higher temps with any vape start to get you into combustion?

It was always my understanding that the primary reason why vaping (regardless of the vape being used) gives you a different high than combustion was because in vaping, you are primarily targeting THC and it is the CBN/CBD's that gives you more of the body high, couch-lock feel that combustion offers. I know that there are many that say it is the toxins that give you that couch-lock high, but from my research, it has more to do with the CBN/CBD ratio to THC than the toxin issues.

 

[Ben]

Hello Ben

My bad. What I failed to mention is that I was primarily referring to the use of the Purple Days which has a fixed heating temp but regardless, doesn't going into those higher temps with any vape start to get you into combustion?

(...)

Significant amounts of benzene began to appear at temperatures of 200 C (392 F), while the combustion started at about 230 C (446 F) or beyond. Traces of THC were detected from 140 C (284 F).

(Source: California NORML, January 2001)

 

[lwien]

Thank you for the input, Ben. Much appreciated. Guess the assumptions that I put together from reading various research papers was wrong. Maybe I should have read them BEFORE I toked up, no?

 

[max]

My Most vapes cover the majority of cannabinoids as well as THC. You do have a few sedative and analgesic compounds that release above 400 F, so there is some merit to going higher temp for medical users. Here's the study that Ben noted:
http://www.canorml.org/healthfacts/vaporizerstudy1.html

And here are the the boiling points for the various compounds:

Phytocannabinoids, their boiling points, and properties


?-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC)
Boiling point: 157*C / 314.6 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Euphoriant, Analgesic, Antiinflammatory, Antioxidant, Antiemetic

cannabidiol (CBD)
Boiling point: 160-180*C / 320-356 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Anxiolytic, Analgesic, Antipsychotic, Antiinflammatory, Antioxidant, Antispasmodic

Cannabinol (CBN)
Boiling point: 185*C / 365 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Oxidation, breakdown, product, Sedative, Antibiotic

cannabichromene (CBC)
Boiling point: 220*C / 428 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Antiinflammatory, Antibiotic, Antifungal

cannabigerol (CBG)
Boiling point: MP52
Properties: Antiinflammatory, Antibiotic, Antifungal

?-8-tetrahydrocannabinol (?-8-THC)
Boiling point: 175-178*C / 347-352.4 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Resembles ?-9-THC, Less psychoactive, More stable Antiemetic

tetrahydrocannabivarin (THCV)
Boiling point: < 220*C / <428 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Analgesic, Euphoriant



Terpenoid essential oils, their boiling points, and properties


-myrcene
Boiling point: 166-168*C / 330.8-334.4 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Analgesic. Antiinflammatory, Antibiotic, Antimutagenic

-caryophyllene
Boiling point: 119*C / 246.2 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Antiinflammatory, Cytoprotective (gastric mucosa), Antimalarial

d-limonene
Boiling point: 177*C / 350.6 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Cannabinoid agonist?, Immune potentiator, Antidepressant, Antimutagenic

linalool
Boiling point: 198*C / 388.4 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Sedative, Antidepressant, Anxiolytic, Immune potentiator

pulegone
Boiling point: 224*C / 435.2 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Memory booster?, AChE inhibitor, Sedative, Antipyretic

1,8-cineole (eucalyptol)
Boiling point: 176*C / 348.8 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: AChE inhibitor, Increases cerebral, blood flow, Stimulant, Antibiotic, Antiviral, Antiinflammatory, Antinociceptive

a-pinene
Boiling point: 156*C / 312.8 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Antiinflammatory, Bronchodilator, Stimulant, Antibiotic, Antineoplastic, AChE inhibitor

a-terpineol
Boiling point: 217-218*C / 422.6-424.4 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Sedative, Antibiotic, AChE inhibitor, Antioxidant, Antimalarial

terpineol-4-ol
Boiling point: 209*C / 408.2 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: AChE inhibitor. Antibiotic

p-cymene
Boiling point: 177*C / 350.6 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Antibiotic, Anticandidal, AChE inhibitor



Flavonoid and phytosterol components, their boiling points, and properties


apigenin
Boiling point: 178*C / 352.4 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Anxiolytic, Antiinflammatory, Estrogenic

quercetin
Boiling point: 250*C / 482 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Antioxidant, Antimutagenic, Antiviral, Antineoplastic

cannflavin A
Boiling point: 182*C / 359.6 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: COX inhibitor, LO inhibitor

-sitosterol
Boiling point: 134*C / 273.2 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Antiinflammatory, 5-a-reductase, inhibitor

 

[bongoman]

It's an interesting issue. If you hang out on growing and medical forums, you'll see a lot of emphais being placed on the distinction between the cerebral sativas versus the heavy indicas, but in my vaporiser the distinction is largely lost.

I vape indica dominant strains largely just cause that's what I have on hand - I vape them during the day at times when I need to be functional and they go fine. If I smoked them I'd be wanting to go have a little lie down for a while I think.

Likewise if I smoked some tropical sativa, the distinction would be very clear. But in my vape, the distinction is largely lost - I get the typical vape high regardless of strain. That is, I get a very clear, very functional high with no anxiety, no paranoia, no sleepiness etc.

 

[bongoman]

Here's an example of the type of thread I meant above. I suspect that vaping the sort of strains spoken about in that thread wouldn't reveal the type of distinctions that the tokers there are talking about. We'd 'taste' the difference really well but the strain-dependent quality of the high/stone wouldn't be as apparent as if we'd smoked.

 

[SpiralArchitect]

Always been a fan of Sativas, even in my 'combustion days'.

 

[lwien]

It's an interesting issue. If you hang out on growing and medical forums, you'll see a lot of emphais being placed on the distinction between the cerebral sativas versus the heavy indicas, but in my vaporiser the distinction is largely lost.

I vape indica dominant strains largely just cause that's what I have on hand - I vape them during the day at times when I need to be functional and they go fine. If I smoked them I'd be wanting to go have a little lie down for a while I think.

Likewise if I smoked some tropical sativa, the distinction would be very clear. But in my vape, the distinction is largely lost - I get the typical vape high regardless of strain. That is, I get a very clear, very functional high with no anxiety, no paranoia, no sleepiness etc.

TOTALLY agree. Wonder why that is? Kinda touching on the same issue in that other thread I started today regarding the differences between smoking and vaping.

Being that we can't tell the difference in the strains while vaping, we are definitely missing some of the components here that we get when we smoke it, and that difference is more than just the additional toxins, no?

 

[4:20]

Wow, Max, what is your source? You have the boiling temperature of most of the interesting compounds ! I ve never seen such details before. Let us know the link/ source please, this info is GOLD.

My Most vapes cover the majority of cannabinoids as well as THC. You do have a few sedative and analgesic compounds that release above 400 F, so there is some merit to going higher temp for medical users. Here's the study that Ben noted:
http://www.canorml.org/healthfacts/vaporizerstudy1.html

And here are the the boiling points for the various compounds:

Phytocannabinoids, their boiling points, and properties


?-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC)
Boiling point: 157*C / 314.6 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Euphoriant, Analgesic, Antiinflammatory, Antioxidant, Antiemetic

cannabidiol (CBD)
Boiling point: 160-180*C / 320-356 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Anxiolytic, Analgesic, Antipsychotic, Antiinflammatory, Antioxidant, Antispasmodic

Cannabinol (CBN)
Boiling point: 185*C / 365 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Oxidation, breakdown, product, Sedative, Antibiotic

cannabichromene (CBC)
Boiling point: 220*C / 428 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Antiinflammatory, Antibiotic, Antifungal

cannabigerol (CBG)
Boiling point: MP52
Properties: Antiinflammatory, Antibiotic, Antifungal

?-8-tetrahydrocannabinol (?-8-THC)
Boiling point: 175-178*C / 347-352.4 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Resembles ?-9-THC, Less psychoactive, More stable Antiemetic

tetrahydrocannabivarin (THCV)
Boiling point: < 220*C / <428 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Analgesic, Euphoriant



Terpenoid essential oils, their boiling points, and properties


-myrcene
Boiling point: 166-168*C / 330.8-334.4 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Analgesic. Antiinflammatory, Antibiotic, Antimutagenic

-caryophyllene
Boiling point: 119*C / 246.2 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Antiinflammatory, Cytoprotective (gastric mucosa), Antimalarial

d-limonene
Boiling point: 177*C / 350.6 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Cannabinoid agonist?, Immune potentiator, Antidepressant, Antimutagenic

linalool
Boiling point: 198*C / 388.4 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Sedative, Antidepressant, Anxiolytic, Immune potentiator

pulegone
Boiling point: 224*C / 435.2 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Memory booster?, AChE inhibitor, Sedative, Antipyretic

1,8-cineole (eucalyptol)
Boiling point: 176*C / 348.8 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: AChE inhibitor, Increases cerebral, blood flow, Stimulant, Antibiotic, Antiviral, Antiinflammatory, Antinociceptive

a-pinene
Boiling point: 156*C / 312.8 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Antiinflammatory, Bronchodilator, Stimulant, Antibiotic, Antineoplastic, AChE inhibitor

a-terpineol
Boiling point: 217-218*C / 422.6-424.4 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Sedative, Antibiotic, AChE inhibitor, Antioxidant, Antimalarial

terpineol-4-ol
Boiling point: 209*C / 408.2 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: AChE inhibitor. Antibiotic

p-cymene
Boiling point: 177*C / 350.6 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Antibiotic, Anticandidal, AChE inhibitor



Flavonoid and phytosterol components, their boiling points, and properties


apigenin
Boiling point: 178*C / 352.4 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Anxiolytic, Antiinflammatory, Estrogenic

quercetin
Boiling point: 250*C / 482 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Antioxidant, Antimutagenic, Antiviral, Antineoplastic

cannflavin A
Boiling point: 182*C / 359.6 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: COX inhibitor, LO inhibitor

-sitosterol
Boiling point: 134*C / 273.2 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Antiinflammatory, 5-a-reductase, inhibitor

 

[Pitzpon]

nice list

 

[max]

Wow, Max, what is your source? You have the boiling temperature of most of the interesting compounds ! I ve never seen such details before. Let us know the link/ source please, this info is GOLD.

This info has been copied and pasted on various forums, but nobody seems to have the source anymore. If I ever saw a source quoted, I can't remember. Here's the info in chart form. Looks like it's close to the original document, but still no source. http://forum.grasscity.com/medical-marijuana/373071-properties-cannabinoids-pic.html

So I've seen 3 different, legit looking, temps (or temp range) for the release of THC- 157, 140-185, and 200. Confusing and frustrating. Is vaporization point different than boiling point for these chemicals? Water and other substances with liquid content release vapor long before they reach boiling point. From personal experience, I'm convinced that I'm getting THC from vapes like iolite and PD, where the temp is fixed below 200 C, so I'm inclined to go with the lower figures.

I think this lack of consensus for how much heat you need to get THC is a reflection of the almost underground status of cannabis research. We get twisted, even false results from pharma studies because the big drug companies are usually financing them, and there's big bucks involved. Not surprising that we can't get consensus on studies where there's no profit making involved and the interested parties are us 'illegal users'. :/

As for Sativa vs. Indica, I think the consensus is that S is more like vaporizing, and I more like smoking, but vaporizing (and the temp used) seems to be an equalizer to some degree. I'm kind of 'in the back woods' when it comes to knowing what strain/type I'm getting. It's getting better, but for most of my 'weed aquiring life' it's been more like just 'the good, the bad, and the ugly', with the occasional appearance of top quality.

 

[nicelytoasted]

The temperatures/vaporizing points/boiling points for the actives ingredients of our favourite herb can be confusing indeed.

I like to think of releasing the actives as a temperature range. For example, I believe that delta-9 THC begins to release at temperatures as low as 140C (285F) as it begins to vaporize, up to 157C (315C), where it is mostly boiled off. Think of heating water: you can see vapor coming off it below the boiling point until it all starts to boil off at 100C (212F).

The other temperatures that you have seen quoted Max, most likey refer to the other THCs (deltas-1,3,8) which are present in much smaller amounts (but not psychoactive), as well as the oxidation product cannibinol and its boiling point of 185C (365F).

And we haven't even included the terpenes and terpenoids which may play an intricate role in the overall high that we seek...

MJ is such a complicated substance chemically and we still have so much more to learn.

My

 

[luchiano]

Wow, Max, what is your source? You have the boiling temperature of most of the interesting compounds ! I ve never seen such details before. Let us know the link/ source please, this info is GOLD.

This info has been copied and pasted on various forums, but nobody seems to have the source anymore. If I ever saw a source quoted, I can't remember. Here's the info in chart form. Looks like it's close to the original document, but still no source. http://forum.grasscity.com/medical-marijuana/373071-properties-cannabinoids-pic.html

So I've seen 3 different, legit looking, temps (or temp range) for the release of THC- 157, 140-185, and 200. Confusing and frustrating. Is vaporization point different than boiling point for these chemicals? Water and other substances with liquid content release vapor long before they reach boiling point. From personal experience, I'm convinced that I'm getting THC from vapes like iolite and PD, where the temp is fixed below 200 C, so I'm inclined to go with the lower figures.

The reason why the PD and the iolite vaporize a good amount of thc is because the herb is sitting in the chamber retaining heat. Even though the air itself is 375f, the herb is holding heat and if air is not going through the chamber constantly to keep it at a constant temperature the herb will be a little hotter than the air which will help release some thc. Fibers tend to absorb heat very well which will help some of the melted resin vaporize.

Think of it like putting a frozen pizza in an oven at 375f. If left in too long the pizza would burn even though the temperature was low due to it drying out and all the moisture gone leaving behind nothing but the heavier chemicals. In our world this would be plant fibers that are dark brown to almost black.

Also, the lower temperature chemicals give "highs" themselves so that would play a part also.

This is good for something needed fast but for the best and safest using the method of gradually raising the temperatures until 392f-396f is best besides eating the herb with the right foods.

 

[luchiano]

Also, the study that showed thc being released at lower temperatures and benzene not being produced used a M1 Volatizer vaporizer which heats the air like an oven and you can see how it will dry the herbs out fast therefore drying it out and release thc at "lower temperatures" but the temperature might not really be 385f on the herb if you understand what I'm saying.

This is probably why they found carbon monoxide and tars in the vapor but they didn't measure how much was there.

This is probably why different people are getting different temperatures for thc. They trying to find the temperatures using different tools.

 

[4:20]

Hi Max,

It would be interesting to know if the boiling temerature that you have copy-pasted are the boiling temperatures under vacuum conditions or normal (Vacuum pressure).
It seems to me that the boiling temperature under normal atmospheric pressure is pretty much the perfect temperature for vaporizing. As when a liquid is boiling, it is also the moment it transforms itself into vapor.

Wow, Max, what is your source? You have the boiling temperature of most of the interesting compounds ! I ve never seen such details before. Let us know the link/ source please, this info is GOLD.

This info has been copied and pasted on various forums, but nobody seems to have the source anymore. If I ever saw a source quoted, I can't remember. Here's the info in chart form. Looks like it's close to the original document, but still no source. http://forum.grasscity.com/medical-marijuana/373071-properties-cannabinoids-pic.html

So I've seen 3 different, legit looking, temps (or temp range) for the release of THC- 157, 140-185, and 200. Confusing and frustrating. Is vaporization point different than boiling point for these chemicals? Water and other substances with liquid content release vapor long before they reach boiling point. From personal experience, I'm convinced that I'm getting THC from vapes like iolite and PD, where the temp is fixed below 200 C, so I'm inclined to go with the lower figures.

I think this lack of consensus for how much heat you need to get THC is a reflection of the almost underground status of cannabis research. We get twisted, even false results from pharma studies because the big drug companies are usually financing them, and there's big bucks involved. Not surprising that we can't get consensus on studies where there's no profit making involved and the interested parties are us 'illegal users'. :/

As for Sativa vs. Indica, I think the consensus is that S is more like vaporizing, and I more like smoking, but vaporizing (and the temp used) seems to be an equalizer to some degree. I'm kind of 'in the back woods' when it comes to knowing what strain/type I'm getting. It's getting better, but for most of my 'weed aquiring life' it's been more like just 'the good, the bad, and the ugly', with the occasional appearance of top quality.

 

[max]

I find it hard to accept a high temp release point for THC. Let's look at the Volcano. Been around for many years. A very high tech, high quality design. Many people have been happy with and recommend a temp range of 5.5-7, which is about 363 F to 396. With the 9 degree F variation in heater block temp on the Classic (with setting 6, which is 374, temp would range from 365-383), only a setting as high as 6.5 would sometimes release THC. This means that either Volcanos have been heating higher than designed for all these years, or many people have been happily vaping bags of vapor for years that contain no THC.

Aromed is another high tech, medical quality vape made in Germany. The purchase is even covered by some insurance companies over there. On this one, with its digital display, we'd also have to accept that it doesn't heat to the advertised temp or that medical patients have been happily vaping under 200 C and getting no THC.

Other high end digital whip units like S Vapezilla, Vaporfection, and Evolutions would be in the same situation. It's not very likely, IMO, that all these vapes heat considerably higher than advertised on the displays, or that all the users of these vapes, over many years, wouldn't have noticed the lack of THC effect when vaping below 392F/200C.

It would be interesting to know if the boiling temerature that you have copy-pasted are the boiling temperatures under vacuum conditions or normal (Vacuum pressure).

Since I have no source for the temp chart, I have no way of knowing.

 

[4:20]

Absolutely true,
Max, you could buy a thermometer type K and test the temperature in your vaporizers. In the Volcano, my favorite temp is 6.5 , I don t have my datas here, but from what i remember is that it is always under 195c (383 F). The thermostat in the volcano (classic) gives a temperature range of 15c. Between the time the thermostat start and shuts off, the difference of temp is max 15c, The digital one might be more precise, but so far (i use it since a few years) , No complains. Temperature above 200c (392F) don t seems to fit the purpose of vaporizing : releases of carbon monoxide and not sure we get more effect (except maybe the extra buzz given by the CO intoxication).
Anyone have tested temperature/effects? with a precise thermometer?

 

[max]

The thermostat in the volcano (classic) gives a temperature range of 15c.

The Classic temp variation is supposed to be plus/minus 5 degrees C (9 degrees F). The Digit's variation is advertised at 1.5 C, 2.7 F.

A type K thermometer sounds interesting. There's a wide price range. Any suggestions?


Man, we've gotten off-topic here, big time. :/

 

[luchiano]

I find it hard to accept a high temp release point for THC. Let's look at the Volcano. Been around for many years. A very high tech, high quality design. Many people have been happy with and recommend a temp range of 5.5-7, which is about 363 F to 396. With the 9 degree F variation in heater block temp on the Classic (with setting 6, which is 374, temp would range from 365-383), only a setting as high as 6.5 would sometimes release THC. This means that either Volcanos have been heating higher than designed for all these years, or many people have been happily vaping bags of vapor for years that contain no THC.

Aromed is another high tech, medical quality vape made in Germany. The purchase is even covered by some insurance companies over there. On this one, with its digital display, we'd also have to accept that it doesn't heat to the advertised temp or that medical patients have been happily vaping under 200 C and getting no THC.

Other high end digital whip units like S Vapezilla, Vaporfection, and Evolutions would be in the same situation. It's not very likely, IMO, that all these vapes heat considerably higher than advertised on the displays, or that all the users of these vapes, over many years, wouldn't have noticed the lack of THC effect when vaping below 392F/200C.

It would be interesting to know if the boiling temerature that you have copy-pasted are the boiling temperatures under vacuum conditions or normal (Vacuum pressure).

Since I have no source for the temp chart, I have no way of knowing.

I remember when vaporizers were starting to get popular back in 2003 on OG(overgrow) bubbleman said that the heating temperatures of the vapir and I think the volcano wern't precise because of the steel screens and some parts of the herb actually get's hotter because of it.

The only vaporizer that actually measure the temperature of the herb is the aromed. The other vaporizers measure just the temperature of the heating element.
As far as people getting high, like dr hornby has stated the essential oils are psychoactive and contribute to the high and this could be the euphoria that people experience.

You also have to look at how many bags are being consumed because the more bags the more chance some of the thc being vaporized if the temperature is around 385f with a steel screen.

 

[luchiano]

Absolutely true,
Max, you could buy a thermometer type K and test the temperature in your vaporizers. In the Volcano, my favorite temp is 6.5 , I don t have my datas here, but from what i remember is that it is always under 195c (383 F). The thermostat in the volcano (classic) gives a temperature range of 15c. Between the time the thermostat start and shuts off, the difference of temp is max 15c, The digital one might be more precise, but so far (i use it since a few years) , No complains. Temperature above 200c (392F) don t seems to fit the purpose of vaporizing : releases of carbon monoxide and not sure we get more effect (except maybe the extra buzz given by the CO intoxication).
Anyone have tested temperature/effects? with a precise thermometer?

The reason why carbon monoxide is released at the high temperature around 200c is because unless you gradually increase the temperature, you will burn some essential oils that vaporize at lower temperature if you vaporize everything at once and this is what creates the carbon monoxide and tars not just heating at these temperatures.

 

[luchiano]

Here is what aromed has stated about this:

http://www.aromed.com/en/aromed.html

"How exact is the temperature setting of the AroMed?

Vaporizing temperatures in the AroMed can be selected in 1C/2F steps from 60C/152F to 235C/455F. Inhalation of about any active agent, from essential oils to components boiling at high temperatures is possible.

Like in all other vaporizers, the hot air temperature is measured where originated, but only the AroMed has a built in processor, that calculates exact temperatures inside the herbal materials.

A comparison: Another vaporizer is temperature controlled by an electric iron thermostat with a measuring tolerance of +/- 15C/59F. Fluctuation ranges of 30C/86F are most likely. It has a knob to choose temperatures between 1 and 9."