ice extraction vs solvent extraction

[2clicker]

i have been considering trying to do an ice/bubble run to extract and then winterize that return in ethanol. doing so to eliminate having to use solvent for the main extraction. so some questions for the members who have experience with both...

will an ice/bubble extraction yield the same return as a solvent extraction?

why do most use butane instead of ice to extract? is it because its faster? or are there other reasons?

also can one do an ice/bubble run with quantities as small as a .5oz or .25oz? i saw that they offer one gallon size bags for small runs. how much is needed for a "small run"? will a .25oz work?

any help is appreciated!

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

I can give you much info on equipment.. But i love to make ETOH from hashes.. it gives much purer product IMO..
Solvent extraction are superior in efficiency compared to water extractions. Also water fucks up the taste a bit IMO.. Best tasting and highest purity stuff you will ever get is Winterized QWET from Dry Ice Hash.. .

 

[2clicker]

so you are saying it is a good idea?

you say water can fuck up the taste a bit, but then say that the best tasting is a winterized QWET from ice hash... so the water affecting the taste is negligible?

when you solvents are more efficient do you mean that they extract more goodies? can i get the same goodies out using ice if i keep running the herb?

i wanna switch but done want to sacrifice what i can get out of it.

 

[tuk]

Good thread I will be watching this one.

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

I meant Dry Ice(Frozen N) , not Ice (Frozen not H20) .. Well for sure ice extraction will not extract as much as solvent extraction.. I am not quite sure i am getting in the essence of your questions.. cause i am really oiled right now ...
If i make QWET from HASH.. it will be from hash that i have bought.. i wouldnt care to make hash and then QWET , excluding the case i am after higher quality product .. I would do straight cold QWET on the bud in any other case.
Dry Ice Hash has supperior taste compared to water extraction , also i thing does better extraction + has higher purity if done right. So that's why i said you will get higher purity and better tasting product.. cause of the higher quality of starter material..
What i do to maximize my extraction.. After i do qwet i dump the wet with ethanol herb into some olive oil or other suitable oils.. i heat it for 30 mins and then strain it.. serves nice in making edibles..
I have done edibles with the herb after water ice extraction with nice results.. also have blasted Butane trough the dried leftovers ... with unsatisfying results in quality department.. i bet etoh or iso wouldnt do much better.

 

[Puffers]

so you are saying it is a good idea?

you say water can fuck up the taste a bit, but then say that the best tasting is a winterized QWET from ice hash... so the water affecting the taste is negligible?

when you solvents are more efficient do you mean that they extract more goodies? can i get the same goodies out using ice if i keep running the herb?

i wanna switch but done want to sacrifice what i can get out of it.

Water extractions aren't as much my thing as other methods but dry ice doesn't really use moisture like a bubble bag or other cold water extraction methods. Dry ice is more like putting a quarter in a sift box to assist knocking heads off the trichomes, but with the benefit of making the trichomes brittle from the extreme cold to ease extraction. Although because your using a weight on a sifting screen you are pushing more plant matter through degrading your product more. All of that is irrelevant because you plan on winterizing though.

So in short I agree that the dry ice method may be best for your usage because you are going to maximize your yield with an aggressive sifting but you will be cleaning up the product with your winterization.

 

[2clicker]

Water extractions aren't as much my thing as other methods but dry ice doesn't really use moisture like a bubble bag or other cold water extraction methods. Dry ice is more like putting a quarter in a sift box to assist knocking heads off the trichomes, but with the benefit of making the trichomes brittle from the extreme cold to ease extraction. Although because your using a weight on a sifting screen you are pushing more plant matter through degrading your product more. All of that is irrelevant because you plan on winterizing though.

So in short I agree that the dry ice method may be best for your usage because you are going to maximize your yield with an aggressive sifting but you will be cleaning up the product with your winterization.

now we are getting somewhere. basically i am looking to eliminate using solvent as much as possible. i dont mind winterizing in it, but not a full wash.

so if doing a dry ice run limits what i can get out then ill stick to my ethanol washes. but if will still get as much out then i want to try the dry ice method.

so when using dry ice you dont use bubble bags? how is the dry ice method performed?

thanks everyone! im really hoping to switch to a non solvent extraction, but if it doesnt make sense then ill keep doing what im doing now.

 

[Puffers]

now we are getting somewhere. basically i am looking to eliminate using solvent as much as possible. i dont mind winterizing in it, but not a full wash.

so if doing a dry ice run limits what i can get out then ill stick to my ethanol washes. but if will still get as much out then i want to try the dry ice method.

so when using dry ice you dont use bubble bags? how is the dry ice method performed?

thanks everyone! im really hoping to switch to a non solvent extraction, but if it doesnt make sense then ill keep doing what im doing now.

Sometimes I generalize and I apologize to anyone I confuse when doing so . A bubble bag is a sifting screen it just has different size micron bags (sifting screens). To vary how restrictive the screen is your using to either filter out plant matter or capture different size trichome heads of varying purity or effects. Most people I have spoken too or seen using the dry ice process are using bubble bags.

I haven't seen any hard scientific testing but I have a hard time imagining that any sifting method would 100% match a properly done solvent extraction. Liquid solvents can reach many places that sifting would most likely fail and some say there are cannabinoids in the stalks that support the trichome growth. Now wether or not a slight efficiency lose (I would guess with an aggressive extraction like dry ice) is worth not using solvents would be a personal call Clicks.

Good discussion

 

[2clicker]

i was very close to buying a 1 gallon set of bubble bags, but it makes sense about the solvent removing more.

wish i had money to get bags and herb and do some side by side comparisons between the two extraction methods.

any ballers out there willing?

 

[smokum]

If your considering dry ice extraction, just get one or two bags (180 micron or 200 micron, or if two get 160 and 220 to give you two separate purities for the different trich sizes) in the one gallon size (for smaller amounts), then take your kief and do your ethanol soak, strain, winterize, strain, purge. I personally use a Kanga Can designed for small dry ice extraction for 1-2 ounce runs.

You can do shake, trim, bud, or combinations of it all that will give your an outstanding amount of kief (go watch youtube about dry ice extraction), and your final product with what you propose should knock your socks off. I dry ice extract often because I love kief (and the fact I can actually produce something from shake/trim I'd normally toss or spray with small results), however I've never gone as far as winterizing, yet love kief on its own or pressed, or iso or butane soaked and strained.

 

[2clicker]

If your considering dry ice extraction, just get one or two bags (180 micron or 200 micron, or if two get 160 and 220 to give you two separate purities for the different trich sizes) in the one gallon size (for smaller amounts), then take your kief and do your ethanol soak, strain, winterize, strain, purge. I personally use a Kanga Can designed for small dry ice extraction for 1-2 ounce runs.

You can do shake, trim, bud, or combinations of it all that will give your an outstanding amount of kief (go watch youtube about dry ice extraction), and your final product with what you propose should knock your socks off. I dry ice extract often because I love kief (and the fact I can actually produce something from shake/trim I'd normally toss or spray with small results), however I've never gone as far as winterizing, yet love kief on its own or pressed, or iso or butane soaked and strained.

what about doing small .25oz sized dry ice exractions? or is that just a waste of time?

after the extraction and winterization is all done id like to end up with my normal 15-20% return i usually get from using solvents.

 

[smokum]

Sorry 2clicker, I honestly couldn't answer and can only relate to (as I did above), the smallest qty's I have handled. I've never felt the need to consider return % because I'm blessed to usually have an abundance of material when I play, and by material I mean shake/trim/popcorns (more in the fall if you get my drift ).

My location requires me to buy dry ice from an oxygen/gas outlet by the $65 bag, so I've never really tried doing little runs, but from what I've heard in most (if not all) States is that it can be obtained there in small qty's for cheap at most grocery stores (lucky bastards ). But I'm not sure of your situation with 'the goodies' to play with, where in my situations it isn't beneficial to try that small, and possible in yours, not cost effective if using purchased bud. That is.... unless your wishing to possibly forgive some return for something you deem 'cleaner'.

 

[Dafni]

what about doing small .25oz sized dry ice exractions? or is that just a waste of time?

I don't see a problem there. Usually we do around 50g in a 1gallon bag at a time.

Best tasting and highest purity stuff you will ever get is Winterized QWET from Dry Ice Hash.. .

This! I found the same. It's easy and relatively quick too (compared to water)

I meant Dry Ice(Frozen N) , not Ice (Frozen not H20) .. .

Dry Ice is solid CO2, just FYI

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

Thx for correction me Dafni. Was too oiled. Dry ice is for sure CO2

 

[havealight101]

Nice thread click, I've been on a similar path as well. Been playing with 1 gallon Boldt bags the last month or so. Only a couple wacks at it so far, but when I have more time they will be getting plenty of use.
So far the return has not been good, but the quality has been amazing. I've been going the ice and water route because my favorite way to medicate is convection vaping with bubble. There are a lot of variables I am narrowing down with research and hands on experiments, seems like more of an "art" than traditional hash oils.
I have many experiments I want to do with the bubble, and an Etoh winterizing is on the list.

 

[Tweak]

Interesting thread, . Subscribed.

Edit: Sorry mods, read quote wrong.

 

[GR]

after the extraction and winterization is all done id like to end up with my normal 15-20% return i usually get from using solvents.

IMO you will not get the same returns, they will be lower. Look at lab tests of dry ice/ water/ sifted hash compared to solvent, there are many more impurities and when stripped away your return goes down even more. My favorite water ice method is done with pure distilled ice and water, frozen material and water already cold before adding ice, stir with wooden spoon for 10min and get some great bubble hash...returns are low but so are containments.

http://analytical360.com/m/expired/20261 scroll down and click on bubble, co2, and BHO for test links.

 

[2clicker]

IMO you will not get the same returns, they will be lower. Look at lab tests of dry ice/ water/ sifted hash compared to solvent, there are many more impurities and when stripped away your return goes down even more. My favorite water ice method is done with pure distilled ice and water, frozen material and water already cold before adding ice, stir with wooden spoon for 10min and get some great bubble hash...returns are low but so are containments.

http://analytical360.com/m/expired/20261 scroll down and click on bubble, co2, and BHO for test links.

thanks for the link!

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

For smaller amounts why not a kief box? Should fit dry ice and material and be easy to scrape.

 

[2clicker]

For smaller amounts why not a kief box? Should fit dry ice and material and be easy to scrape.

yeah ive considered that. i may make one myself. may be just the ticket for trying it with minimal start up costs.

i may attempt it this weekend. i will post my results.

 

[farscaper]

I will be getting some bubble bags soon to try at bubble form. I have used ice water to make a crude water extracted hash from trimmings via the gravity method, the results vape well. But I think I can do better with some bags. I'm not looking for a dabbable concentrate these days, I too would like to remove solvents from my extactions and I think that if you first seperate the extraction material from as much plant matter as possible you will limit the addition of excess contamination from chllorphyl and any unflushed nutients. Depending on your solvent choice diffrent polarities will extract anything in their relm of magnitism. Im not keen to what is attracted to what, but this seems of common sense. So the extra "weight" added from a strait plant solvent extraction might be more junk than if it had been first stripped of plant material...

Im mostly interested in just removing solvents and sticking to mechnical extraction... Which is what bubble is.

 

[Snake Plissken]

I had a full set of bubble bags for a while and made around 12+ runs. I was never happy w/ return, only achieved full melt a few times and the taste was never as good as solvent extractions. If you choose to go this way, the key imo is to use as little agitation as possible to achieve the cleanest end result. The 1st time I made it, I used a paddle on the end of a hammer drill and it was an impure mess. After that , I used as little agitation as possible and the end product was way blonder/cleaner. I never attempted a run w/ less than a qp of material as return was so small. Also, unless you are attempting to separate grades of end product (a,b,c quality) you really only need a work bag to strain materials and the finer bag for final strain. Don't just add your ice to h20 and go, give everything time to really get cold 1st - your water and material.

 

[2clicker]

my plan is to use dry ice and get as much out as i can. even if that means plant matter getting through. after that i will be dissolving in ethanol and then winterizinng. the 50 and 25 micron filters im using will def get the plant matter out.

 

[farscaper]

Freeze your keif and winterizing liquid before combining, that way the contaminates from the plant matter stay locked up and dont leach out.

my plan is to use dry ice and get as much out as i can. even if that means plant matter getting through. after that i will be dissolving in ethanol and then winterizinng. the 50 and 25 micron filters im using will def get the plant matter out.

 

[2clicker]

Freeze your keif and winterizing liquid before combining, that way the contaminates from the plant matter stay locked up and dont leach out.

yup all over it. thanks!