How smart are non-humans.........really.

[lwien]

Lets start out with crows with teeny tiny brains:

http://time.com/42068/crows-intelligence-animals/?hpt=hp_t3

Ya know, the bottom to all this is that we, as the human race, have been pretty fucking pompous in regards to our intelligence but I think that the more studies that go on, we'll find that various animal species not only have their own language, but that they are more intellectually and emotionally advanced than we ever thought possible.

 

[macbill]

And some are very tasty!

 

[Caligula]

And some are very tasty!

Agree. LMK when we lose our edge in the food chain. Then ill be impressed.

 

[treeman]

Crows are stupidly awesome, I wrote an article about them a couple of years ago. They have the same brain to body size ratio as chimps. Will bury food to hide it, and if enough time has passed that the food would have started to rot they don't return for it. They know how long it lasts.
If another crow sees them hide food they will return later and move it. They have all kinds of tricks and are able to show/teach one another.

This is a really interesting 10 minutes about a guy who noticed their capacity for learning and devised some sort experiment, its worth a view IMO.

The more we look at most higher animals the more obvious it becomes that they really are much more intelligent then we ever thought in the past.

 

[crawdad]

if you want to properly consider another species in terms of its intelligence or ability to experience emotions (have character, specific interests, mannerisms unique to individual, etc) you need to isolate them beyond the lazy terms of categorizing similarities to humans. i live with an animal lover and she collects almost everything from outdoors brings it inside, researches, cares for it, most of the time eventually releases it...even the smallest and easiest to discredit creatures in terms of being "intelligent" will usually surprise you after a few months of living with it.

at some point hopefully we will collectively see past our own differences and realize we are based quite the same and ultimately see that of all living things. although id admit its hard not to look down when your sitting at the top.

 

[djonkoman]

I have sometimes thought about this... what if a lot of animalspecies are actually what we would call 'enlightened'? we humans see ourselves as most intelligent, or only intelligent, species because we are destroying our own environment, we pride ourselves on a way of life that is not sustainable. I'm not saying we are destroying the world/nature, because we are not, but we are altering/influencing it. but every animal influences the environment in wich it lives, so that's not unique. but what is unique about us is that we alter it in a way wich is detrimental to our own surival, eventhough we pride ourselves in being aware of it.
we live like a pest-species, but our commentary on their lifecycle would be 'why are they destroying that wich supports their life?' we think we are aware, but still are onl;y aware of others, not ourselves.

so what if a lot of the animalspecies around us were once like us, but they reached the conclusion that to live on they must live together with trheir environment? what if the only reason animals aren't waging war against us is because of moral/ethical guidelines/reasons instead of their lack of awareness?

not that I believe this top be true, but I think it is a very interesting hypothetical to think about.

we are always thinking inside our own box, the traits/skills wich we deem superior are our own, so naturally we see ourselves as the most superior species. and most of all we look down on those lowly plants, they can't even walk! except they don't need to, because they adapted differently. I'm currently studying plant sciences, so naturally plants are in my focus. and the more you learn about plants, the more interesting they get. plants can communicate, not only with their own kind, but also with insects. they have elaborate immunesystems, wich partly rely on calling in outside help. they are the masters of symbiosis, they are the 'silent power', they can call on all of us animals as servants and make us think we arethe masters. don't we say WE grow weed? aren't we in fact just serving a plant wich has developed a very smart strategy to maintain it's species? plants can even learn from experience, despite not posessing brains or nerves( http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00442-013-2873-7 )
I think we shouldn't be as quick to think that what is vastly different from us must be inferior, how further an organism is evolutionaryu removed from us the lower we see it, despite the fact that that organism is still alive and so must be doing something right, it just has been on a different path very long.

 

[Havelock Vetenari]

Loved this on the beebs.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03thwhf/clips for more clips.

 

[lwien]

Wow...........!!

 

[tuk]

I agree with the all the ideas in your post except the bit in bold, to a large extent we have already destroyed much of the natural world ....borrowed time r us.

But, getting back to the thread topic, I think we need to define intelligence first, which is not as straightforward as we like to think ...the most objective & catch-all definition I can think of is how well an organism interacts with it's environment & by that simple criteria we are one of the stupidest animals on the planet, even a single cell amoeba will score more highly than humans in this respect.

I have sometimes thought about this... what if a lot of animalspecies are actually what we would call 'enlightened'? we humans see ourselves as most intelligent, or only intelligent, species because we are destroying our own environment, we pride ourselves on a way of life that is not sustainable. I'm not saying we are destroying the world/nature, because we are not, but we are altering/influencing it. but every animal influences the environment in wich it lives, so that's not unique. but what is unique about us is that we alter it in a way wich is detrimental to our own surival, eventhough we pride ourselves in being aware of it.
we live like a pest-species, but our commentary on their lifecycle would be 'why are they destroying that wich supports their life?' we think we are aware, but still are onl;y aware of others, not ourselves.

so what if a lot of the animalspecies around us were once like us, but they reached the conclusion that to live on they must live together with trheir environment? what if the only reason animals aren't waging war against us is because of moral/ethical guidelines/reasons instead of their lack of awareness?

not that I believe this top be true, but I think it is a very interesting hypothetical to think about.

we are always thinking inside our own box, the traits/skills wich we deem superior are our own, so naturally we see ourselves as the most superior species. and most of all we look down on those lowly plants, they can't even walk! except they don't need to, because they adapted differently. I'm currently studying plant sciences, so naturally plants are in my focus. and the more you learn about plants, the more interesting they get. plants can communicate, not only with their own kind, but also with insects. they have elaborate immunesystems, wich partly rely on calling in outside help. they are the masters of symbiosis, they are the 'silent power', they can call on all of us animals as servants and make us think we arethe masters. don't we say WE grow weed? aren't we in fact just serving a plant wich has developed a very smart strategy to maintain it's species? plants can even learn from experience, despite not posessing brains or nerves( http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00442-013-2873-7 )
I think we shouldn't be as quick to think that what is vastly different from us must be inferior, how further an organism is evolutionaryu removed from us the lower we see it, despite the fact that that organism is still alive and so must be doing something right, it just has been on a different path very long.

 

[syrupy]

I think it's impossible to judge the intelligence of another species. What do we even mean when we say 'intelligent'? Emotional intelligence? Ability to use the environment to survive? Love of technology? Ability to create social groups?

One thing that always stands out is how animals only need a year or two of learning before flying the coop and making it on their own. Humans however, need years and years of "education" (read: social conditioning) before they can function. Can you imagine if all human babies were cut loose at two years of age?

Intelligence it seems, comes at a high cost.

 

[Havelock Vetenari]

And that's a wild bird,mind you!
Loved the whole series,this episode isn't so much about intelligence as it is different senses,but just especially loved the bit in the wolfpark,start at 19.00 :

As someone who has a lot to do with dogs i gotta admire the better taste of these wolves to the average lab,beagle etc....,Chanel nr. 5 is so much better than 'eau de animal mort/poisson'.

 

[dstroyah]

Whats up guys? This is my first post but i've been browsing the forum for a while.
As above, so below.

 

[crawdad]

I have sometimes thought about this... what if a lot of animalspecies are actually what we would call 'enlightened'?

i think many animals can detect that we are enlightened and display this awareness by accepting our advances (food, training, adopting, etc) in an apparent non-hostile manner vs obeying out of fear, many animals appear to choose us...i think that's key.

we pride ourselves on a way of life that is not sustainable. I'm not saying we are destroying the world/nature, because we are not, but we are altering/influencing it.

somewhere along the way of us transitioning from survival to living (knowledge) we constructed ideas about what a life is to be about (enlightenment), we looked so far inward that our surroundings didn't matter and it shows. what is sometimes overlooked is that the changes we now live with do affect further change of its own, we are products of our environment...like the crow who flys higher than we do.

 

[lwien]

I sure like where this thread is going......good stuff.

 

[farscaper]

Philosophical point of view?...

Is it perhaps not what none human species are intelligent, but why do we assume they lack intelligence until proven otherwise?

How much of a human would be concidered wasted meat to a catapiller?

Just as we assume that dinosaurs such as Argentinasaurs with their massive girth are just stupid instinctual creatures.... we would fit in some ancient species brain cavities!

So why assume anything lacks intelligence...?