How do we know when all the THC is gone?

[LulzRoyce]

Hey guys, interesting question because there's some evidence being applied here.

Watch the following video at 2:40-2:50

The micro-shots he took show that after only 1 or 2 hits from a whip draw, the main white trichomes were basically completely gone, even though the plant matter itself appears to be still green. Does this mean that the THC gets extracted much faster than everything else? As in, after the first few draws, the vapor isn't as thc concentrated as we believe? And perhaps, vapor production alone isn't a clear signal that there's still THC in the vapor, since they begin to taste funky rather fast...

Ideas? How many whip hits do you think are really that THC concentrated? Because for me, I end up sucking down 20 hits from my DBV and it really dries out my lungs and I want to know if I'm wasting my time and can get the same effect off just 4-5 hits? Comments? Ideas? Theories? Thx!

 

[215z]

If you could be satisfied with the first 5 hits, why would you continue with the subsequent 15?

After two hits, the contents of the trichomes have evaporated. But did it all go into his lungs? It stands to reason that some of it is now trapped in the remaining plant matter.

My tea bags are stained with tannins after I'm done brewing tea.

 

[LulzRoyce]

If you could be satisfied with the first 5 hits, why would you continue with the subsequent 15?

After two hits, the contents of the trichomes have evaporated. But did it all go into his lungs? It stands to reason that some of it is now trapped in the remaining plant matter.

My tea bags are stained with tannins after I'm done brewing tea.

The question of whether it went into his lungs is one thing, my concern was, are subsequent hits still containing thc even though there's visible vapor? Because it seems that the actual trichomes are gone way before the bud "browns out" which most people use as a measuring point to when its done.

For me, due to my tolerance, I don't get those instant rushes. My onsets are very slow, so after 5 hits I don't really feel it quite yet, it takes about 10 minutes for it to fully set in. I don't want to waste my weed because after I'm done with it I'm done, I don't cook and I don't revape used weed - I like it fresh each time.

So my question was whether it's a waste of time to keep vaping it after 5 hits in terms of the vapor having thc or not. 5 hits for me isn't very sufficient I dont think (only on first vape of day), but I want to know if the subsequent 15 are doing anything or whether it's drying my throat out wastefully and it's time to load another bowl.

 

[Caligula]

Its not that hard to figure out. Take some hits then pass it to someone completely sober and see if they get high.

...Oh wait, Ive already done that. It works.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

well, perhaps the issue is for the non-sober user, who has had 5 nice hits, and the question is, is it worth the side effects of taking the next 15 hits (dry lung), if it really won't enhance the high. for me, yeah, i stop when the vapor thins out even though there is still vapor coming out of the vial. when the hit goes from sublime to just so-so.

 

[lwien]

Why don't you load up your vape, take your abv down to a medium dark brown and then save that for the next day. Take that medium-dark brown bud and load it up and hit it until its a uniform very dark brown...........wait 10 to 15 minutes and take note on how you feel. THEN, you will know what is best for YOU.

All of us are a bit different, not only in our tolerances but also how we react to cannabis. What may be true for one person may very well not be true for another.

 

[Mr. Gweilo 420]

I totally agree with Iwien. I hate wasting anything, particularly cannabis. Through trial and error I have come up with the best solution for me. I vape my bud until I am only getting whispy hits and I simply dump that load into my ABV jar. Once I have 1/2 oz. of abv or more I will do a QWISO run and whatever is left in the plant material will be utilized that way. Nothing is wasted and I don't need to worry at all

 

[DogBoy]

...great minds think alike... (grin)

...seriously....I was just wondering if that would be worth doing with the brown stuff I get out of a Pax...

 

[cat420]

Mix 2 teas spoons of ABV with some butter and milk warm it in a microwave mid temp. Drink it..and you ll see if the THC goes after a couple of draw ! I v done that and I was high for almost 12 hours !!

 

[OF]

The micro-shots he took show that after only 1 or 2 hits from a whip draw, the main white trichomes were basically completely gone, even though the plant matter itself appears to be still green. Does this mean that the THC gets extracted much faster than everything else? As in, after the first few draws, the vapor isn't as thc concentrated as we believe?

No, I think it just means the trichomes melted and most of the good stuff got absorbed by the bulk......to evaporate from there on schedule.

There are some interesting tests being discussed on the MFLB thread right now that showed a very uniform .3 mg of THC delivered per hit over a span of at least 30 hits. I think physics (how much heat, basically) controls the rate. Like a pan of boiling water, it doesn't matter how deep the water is, it boils off at the same inches per hour until you alter the fire part or it runs dry. We're close to that model I think.

Edit: Here's the link to that experiment.
http://mcrlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/White-Paper-Vape-Ex.pdf

OF

 

[pakalolo]

No, I think it just means the trichomes melted and most of the good stuff got absorbed by the bulk......to evaporate from there on schedule.

There are some interesting tests being discussed on the MFLB thread right now that showed a very uniform .3 mg of THC delivered per hit over a span of at least 30 hits. I think physics (how much heat, basically) controls the rate. Like a pan of boiling water, it doesn't matter how deep the water is, it boils off at the same inches per hour until you alter the fire part or it runs dry. We're close to that model I think.

Edit: Here's the link to that experiment.
http://mcrlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/White-Paper-Vape-Ex.pdf

OF

The main discussion of that paper is now in the thread Vaporization temperature dependent selection of effects. One of the things that experiment shows is that vapourizing doesn't remove all of the THC. There isn't much out there on this, but when I do find a reference to the percentage of THC remaining it seems that there's as much as 50% left when you hit the popcorn barrier.

Boiling water is my favourite analogy for explaining how vapour is formed and I think you're applying it correctly here. The actual process is pretty complicated. The compounds change with heat. They don't exist in isolation, they're in a matrix that has a different boiling point than any of the components. I have never found any data showing the rate of release of any particular compound at a specific temperature, but everyone knows that water steams long before it boils. Terpenoids and cannabinoids are no different, but their boiling points and the boiling point of the matrix are all close enough that at vaping temperatures, you are getting a mix of all of them. Like boiling water, exceeding the boiling point doesn't immediately release all of the component. You still have to apply heat for a while to get all the THC, and it seems clear that the taste degrades beyond most people's tolerance long before that happens.

Edit: I've just discovered that I've misunderstood the point I crossed out above. The matrix itself doesn't have its own boiling point. Science is hard!

 

[OF]

One of the things that experiment shows is that vapourizing doesn't remove all of the THC. There isn't much out there on this, but when I do find a reference to the percentage of THC remaining it seems that there's as much as 50% left when you hit the popcorn barrier.

Actually, if you read their White Paper, you'll see they report just the opposite:
"MCR Labs found that the active cannabinoids were
consumed after 40 draws, at a rate of 0.3 mg of
THC per draw."

http://mcrlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/White-Paper-Vape-Ex.pdf

The graph shows linear extraction of 3/4 the total in 30 hits, but the test didn't end there. The text reports the remaining 1/4 was removed in the last 10 hits. This tends to square with most folks experience I think, 'if you completely vape your load, the AVB has nothing to offer'. If you intend to recover from the ABV you need to leave something to recover.

The spread of factions can, I think, be understood when you consider other distillations. For instance, in making Whiskey you distill 'brewer's beer' at about 12 to 15% to perhaps 30% or so in one pass in a pot still. That is while most of the Ethanol (at about 190F IIRC) 'boils across' so does lots of the water (at 212F) since there's really a distribution of energies at the molecular level. It will take at least a second, and probably third pass to get the 'proof' up high enough (and the tastes from the fermentation removed), so called 'triple rectified'.

If, OTOH, you want Vodka or gasoline (not from the same source of course) you typically use another technique. Next time you drive by a refinery (common around here) look at the fractional distillation columns they use. Tall cylinders, filled with horizontal plates of holes and baffles. Vapor come up from the heater in the bottom. As it cools plate by plate, the vapors condense out (heavy stuff lower down where it's hotter) where it drips down again. Over and over and over. By the time the Octane we want (for instance) is extracted it's been evaporated and condensed dozens and dozens of times. Each time getting slightly purer as the lighter stuff escapes up the column and the heavier drips down further. Likewise, by the time the Vodka reaches the top it's been evaporated and condensed many times to improve the separation (leaving the water and tastes behind).

We only get one (or at most a few) such phase changes to separate stuff out.

BTW, one fun part of all this is sometimes a mixture of such stuff will have a boiling point lower than any of it's components. Soft solders depend on this, as do 'vapor degreasers' in some cases.

OF

 

[pakalolo]

Actually, if you read their White Paper, you'll see they report just the opposite:
"MCR Labs found that the active cannabinoids were
consumed after 40 draws, at a rate of 0.3 mg of
THC per draw."

http://mcrlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/White-Paper-Vape-Ex.pdf

The graph shows linear extraction of 3/4 the total in 30 hits, but the test didn't end there. The text reports the remaining 1/4 was removed in the last 10 hits. This tends to square with most folks experience I think, 'if you completely vape your load, the AVB has nothing to offer'. If you intend to recover from the ABV you need to leave something to recover.

The spread of factions can, I think, be understood when you consider other distillations. For instance, in making Whiskey you distill 'brewer's beer' at about 12 to 15% to perhaps 30% or so in one pass in a pot still. That is while most of the Ethanol (at about 190F IIRC) 'boils across' so does lots of the water (at 212F) since there's really a distribution of energies at the molecular level. It will take at least a second, and probably third pass to get the 'proof' up high enough (and the tastes from the fermentation removed), so called 'triple rectified'.

If, OTOH, you want Vodka or gasoline (not from the same source of course) you typically use another technique. Next time you drive by a refinery (common around here) look at the fractional distillation columns they use. Tall cylinders, filled with horizontal plates of holes and baffles. Vapor come up from the heater in the bottom. As it cools plate by plate, the vapors condense out (heavy stuff lower down where it's hotter) where it drips down again. Over and over and over. By the time the Octane we want (for instance) is extracted it's been evaporated and condensed dozens and dozens of times. Each time getting slightly purer as the lighter stuff escapes up the column and the heavier drips down further. Likewise, by the time the Vodka reaches the top it's been evaporated and condensed many times to improve the separation (leaving the water and tastes behind).

We only get one (or at most a few) such phase changes to separate stuff out.

BTW, one fun part of all this is sometimes a mixture of such stuff will have a boiling point lower than any of it's components. Soft solders depend on this, as do 'vapor degreasers' in some cases.

OF

Well, you got me. I plead guilty to being sloppy about what "vapourizing doesn't remove all of the THC" means. To clarify, I intended "vapourizing" to mean what we humans do, not what an apparatus in a lab does to deliberately extract all the THC. The point is that nobody takes it to that level.

 

[OF]

Well, you got me. I plead guilty to being sloppy about what "vapourizing doesn't remove all of the THC" means. To clarify, I intended "vapourizing" to mean what we humans do, not what an apparatus in a lab does to deliberately extract all the THC. The point is that nobody takes it to that level.

These were human beings, four of them in fact, not some lab gear, doing the extractions. Stock MFLBs. The only thing that was seen by 'laboratory gear' was the ABV, for all we know the actual vaping took place elsewhere.

In this case the real humans stripped all the THC, or so they claim? Users may not always do this (or even often) but in this test they seem to have done so. I suggest many who 'vape it dark' do as well.

I think this series of tests confirms several useful things for us. First off, such vaping (where the energy available is controlling the action) is linear. You can get half the dose if you take half the hits. Or 1/4 for ten in their tests (where 40 hits is all there is). Secondly, it confirms the nature of the vapor (mix of components) changes as the load ages. We tend to look at this as 'couch lock' from the higher (end of load) material, but there's the confirmation of why. Lastly, I think it shows that given the right conditions essentially all the good stuff can be stripped. Many folks here have commented like 'I vape it until nothing is left', and 'I like eatables, so I leave some THC behind'. The proof being solvent extractions (like ISO or Butane) can't strip any THC out of fully vaped ABV, there just is none left? HPLC is, of course, an analysis of such a solvent extraction, done with Methanol I believe? At each step it strips all the THC remaining in the sample, finally getting to zero left after forty 'standard hits'.

OF

 

[Caligula]

That dialogue made my day.

 

[OF]

That dialogue made my day.

Mine too. Good to exchange ideas, can keep a guy grounded.

OF

 

[mcrlabs]

These were human beings, four of them in fact, not some lab gear, doing the extractions. Stock MFLBs. The only thing that was seen by 'laboratory gear' was the ABV, for all we know the actual vaping took place elsewhere.

In this case the real humans stripped all the THC, or so they claim? Users may not always do this (or even often) but in this test they seem to have done so. I suggest many who 'vape it dark' do as well.

I think this series of tests confirms several useful things for us. First off, such vaping (where the energy available is controlling the action) is linear. You can get half the dose if you take half the hits. Or 1/4 for ten in their tests (where 40 hits is all there is). Secondly, it confirms the nature of the vapor (mix of components) changes as the load ages. We tend to look at this as 'couch lock' from the higher (end of load) material, but there's the confirmation of why. Lastly, I think it shows that given the right conditions essentially all the good stuff can be stripped. Many folks here have commented like 'I vape it until nothing is left', and 'I like eatables, so I leave some THC behind'. The proof being solvent extractions (like ISO or Butane) can't strip any THC out of fully vaped ABV, there just is none left? HPLC is, of course, an analysis of such a solvent extraction, done with Methanol I believe? At each step it strips all the THC remaining in the sample, finally getting to zero left after forty 'standard hits'.

OF

In case you're interested, we did use methanol to extract. We have a validated extraction method (the exact extraction details are proprietary, sorry) as well as a validated analytical method. This means that we proved, much earlier than this study, that using our process we can extract all the remaining cannabinoids.

 

[VapingDitto]

Not sure if this is relevant, but I just want to put my thought out there...
If I can recall correctly, most of the thc in cannabis is thc-a, and this chemical turns into thc after exposure to heat and or time. When the cannabis is expose to a heating element at 385 F (for example), isn't it true that the heating element must raise the entire temperature of the cannabis plant to the desire temp before we begin converting and boiling off thc? So isn't there a point when you aren't extracting much thc, like the beginning couple of hits.

 

[OF]

When the cannabis is expose to a heating element at 385 F (for example), isn't it true that the heating element must raise the entire temperature of the cannabis plant to the desire temp before we begin converting and boiling off thc? So isn't there a point when you aren't extracting much thc, like the beginning couple of hits.

Good thoughts. However, IIRC the conversion happens much lower in temperature. Brownies baked at 225F feature the conversion. There's also some actual THC (not needing conversion) around. And some water that will need to evaporate first.

However, I don't think it's necessary to raise the entire load to the magic temperature. It's common to find darker herb in one part of the load than another.

Food for thought.

Thanks.

OF

 

[215z]

So I have a question. I used to use flowers, and have a healthy collection of ABV stashed away, about 4oz. What IS left in it? If I water cure, extract, then winterize; what will I have left? Trace THC?

 

[215z]

I guess there is one way to find out....

 

[samantabha]

Fascinating and very helpful in-depth discussion here! But could this all be a moot point when mj is legal everywhere and easily obtainable? I recall a Rasta friend in central Jamaica sporting 5 blounts in his mouth and smiling.....he didn't seem to care to conserve any THC.

 

[215z]

Yes @samantabha discussions of ABV and reclaim are only relevant when supply is limited. Even when cannabis is legal everywhere there will be rare incidents of supply shortages. Some people will run out, some people won't be able to afford it at the moment, some people won't harvest enough to carry them through to the next growing season, etc.

Today, spinach is cheap and tobacco is legal (but heavily taxed), I still see indigent folk eating out of trash cans and picking up cigarette butts.

And there will be some small set of people (not me) for whom ABV/reclaim has significant therapeutic benefits.

 

[samantabha]

I thought about that on the way home today. Would there still be benefit in reclaiming even if there weren't a supply problem? What would some of the health benefits be?

 

[215z]

I suppose the only health benefit would involve a patient getting relief (with AVB/reclaim) rather than not getting any relief at all. Supply problem is relative, too. I can buy organic ounces all day (well 10am-8pm really) for $235, but I still reclaim. If it was $5/oz at 7-Elevens and gas stations throughout the country, I probably would not.