Holding in hits, and long convection hits.

[PeteyS]

Hi all, I would like to get the general consensus of the community on who thinks holding in vapour hits and taking long convection style hits could really be messing up our lungs.
Me, being a weed "smoker" for the first ten years, I was always used to taking a small 2 second pull on my joints, or possibly a 5 second pull off a bong.
For the past 3 years I have solely "vaped" my dry flower, and really thought it was odd taking a 20 second hit off my arriver v tower, or e nano log vape. It felt as if maybe this wasn't all that safe for the longevity of my lungs.
Does anyone else feel this way, it seems as if every health organization also does not agree with taking long pulls. Even S&B state somewhere in their manual that the pulls should be like 5 seconds or so max.

 

[Shit Snacks]

I'm sure there are already threads about this, but what I've heard is actually not just taking a big hit and holding it in, it's more so about taking in your hit, and then inhaling fresh air, to further force the vapor in to absorb, not simply holding your vapor in until you choke lol it should be a smooth experience ideally so it helps having more lung power

 

[Comfortably Numb]

Great topic that has been on my mind recently....I am sure there are threads about everything if you searched for them. Think I will observe this one for a bit before sticking my neck out there...lol

 

[TigoleBitties]

I remember reading back in my high school biology days that the transfer of chemicals and absorption into the bloodstream at the blood-gas barrier in our lungs takes place very quickly, on the order of 1-2 secs. This leads me to believe that there's little value in holding your breath for as long as you can to "maximize" the THC entering your bloodstream. I've stopped doing this a while back and noticed no difference in how high I get.

I don't think there's anything wrong with long, deep breaths. Such deep breathing in theory at least should help air permeate deeply into lung tissue. If you vape properly and avoid combustion, I think avoiding all the pyrolytic compounds in smoke far outweighs any other foreign particles that might be introduced via vaping. Any unwanted particles may indeed travel more deeply into our lungs based on deep inhales but I suspect the concentration of unwanted particles is so small compared to smoking, and clean enough compared to ambient air pollution around us so as to mitigate this effect.

 

[Shit Snacks]

Great topic that has been on my mind recently....I am sure there are threads about everything if you searched for them.

Yeah, to be clear, that was my point, if you are interested in the subject there is a lot of information about it already shared, for more comprehensive research, and building convo

 

[invertedisdead]

It’s not about holding in vapor, it’s about “recycling” it.

Think of your lungs like a balloon - absorption is only going to occur at the “walls” of the balloon (your hypothetical lungs)

The majority of that vapor is in the middle, not making contact with anything besides more gaseous components, not getting absorbed.

You want to do a partial exhale then inhale back in to “rearrange” the aerosol and expose more of it to the alveoli for absorption.

Realistically flower vaping in general is going to be harsher on the pulmonary system than vaporizing concentrates due to the difference in energy inputs required to perform vaporization.

 

[Radwin Bodnic]

Think of your lungs like a balloon - absorption is only going to occur at the “walls” of the balloon (your hypothetical lungs)

The majority of that vapor is in the middle, not making contact with anything besides more gaseous components, not getting absorbed.

I have to disagree with you on this point.

Lungs does look much more like a sponge than a balloon.
The diaphragm compress the sponge when you exhale and dilates it when you inhale.

Ample diaphragm movement allows for greater absorption of what you put inside the lungs.

But where I agree with you is that lung volume is not a very important factor in itself. The respiratory rate is.

E.g. aerobic exercice elevate your respiratory rate more than it widen your diaphragm movements. And this is to absorb more oxygen and release more carbon dioxide.

Now consider the Wim Hof technique : it combines exceptionally large diaphragm movement and a high respiratory rate. The huge amount of oxygen absorbed thanks to its technique maintain a high cellular respiratory activity in all the body and this creates... heat ! (The man baths for hours in sub 0°C water without loosing a finger in the process.)

An efficient way of vaping would be to use a high volume third lung or gravity bong or balloon inside of which you extract all your dose and then empty it using the Wim Hof technique. This will get the highest amount of cannabinoids in your bloodstream and send you to the moon for a longer period of time. (Not even mentioning the meditative state brought by focusing on your breath and on its steadiness).

Edit to focus on the topic :
You can fill completely your lungs with 5s pulls if the aerosol is already available. If you have to create the aerosol with your draw at the same time than you're filling your lung then it is going to be a lot longer. Aerosol temperature, restriction of the vaporizer and/or flow rate needed to get a proper extraction don't allow to fill your lung that fast.

 

[Nina]

@PeteyS thank you for this fascinating thread

 

[Jill NYC]

For the past 3 years I have solely "vaped" my dry flower, and really thought it was odd taking a 20 second hit off my arriver v tower, or e nano log vape. It felt as if maybe this wasn't all that safe for the longevity of my lungs.
Does anyone else feel this way, it seems as if every health organization also does not agree with taking long pulls. Even S&B state somewhere in their manual that the pulls should be like 5 seconds or so max.

But I think the point of the OP is about how long you should breath in the HEAT before it starts to be unsafe, not about absorption.

I have wondered the same, as time goes on my throat is getting more sensitive (glass/water/mtl hits, etc helps)
Plus I recently read about a study on esophagus cancer and a link with people who drank scorching hot tea regularly. It got me thinking if vaping the heat has any long term effects.

 

[GetLeft]

FC is an encyclopedia on steroids for sure but also a great place to ask questions anew.
Anecdotally, I can say that vaping is not the best thing for my lungs. Hot and dry are not conditions that my lungs thrive in. Preferable to introducing carcinogens into my body? I've thought so since finding this forum. Good for our lungs? Nah. Diffusing vapor and moistening it via water tools allow me to continue vaping but I need to listen to my lungs for sure.

 

[maremaresing]

-If hot wet moist vapor is this dangerous it spells a short life for those of us who love long scalding hot showers.
-If hot dry air is dangerous it spells a short life for those who live in arid climates

It's fun to have these discussions and hyper focus on components we can control with regards to harm reduction. Let's not ignore the forest for the trees, though.

A lot of convection devices need a long inhale to build up the vapor. MTL with conduction devices is preferable if you really really care about that sort of thing. Or just cool your vapor, since it doesn't take much to bring hot vapor down to room temperature.

I don't think you get any benefit out of holding the vapor more than a second or so, because our lungs are so good at pulling chemicals out of the air. After all, we don't have to hold our breath every time we take in oxygen all day.

 

[RustyOldNail]

A lot of convection devices need a long inhale to build up the vapor. MTL with conduction devices is preferable if you really really care about that sort of thing.

That’s what I’ve experienced as I get older. These days I’m using my Venty now, more then my TM2.

 

[staircase slight of hand]

it seems as if every health organization also does not agree with taking long pulls.

Could you clarify what you’re referring to? I’m not aware of anything I’d describe as a “health organization” having weighed in on this topic.

 

[Nina]

I don't think you get any benefit out of holding the vapor more than a second or so, because our lungs are so good at pulling chemicals out of the air. After all, we don't have to hold our breath every time we take in oxygen all day.

I agree with you!
I still feel compelled to hold it in for a few seconds though, it's an impulse driven by not wanting to waste any of the medicine.
I'm not so worried about wasting the air

 

[Durbandream]

With my TM2 I make sure to tamp the herb down so the airflow is a little firm but not restricted, that way even if I pull fairly hard by the time the hot air actually vaporizes the material and carries it through it's been cooled a lot. I also push the CU down all the way (I still prefer the stock stem) so I can finish a session in two or three quick hits and generally limit the temp to 6.

The Arizer Air Max is really great if you're worried about this, though. I can turn the temp up to 380 and still get cool hits with the short stem. The trick is to use rimless domed stainless steel screens, this greatly increases the extraction speed and efficiency of that device to give you much faster sessions, more vapor and less inhaling hot air over a long period.

 

[PeteyS]

My issue with long pulls is that your taking the vapour deep into your lungs, where im assuming your lungs are more vulnerable. I think every health article I ve read recommends against long pulls. One of the main articles is the Storz&Bickle user manual for the Crafty/Mighty products.
Im not worried so much about the heat , or the thc intake, but more so how vunuarable our lungs may be in the wide open position.
In some ways I think a conduction style vape, might be a better solution for health reasons. Something that needs to be studied upon in the future .
Even with smoking, or cigarettes, you are still just taking a short 1-2 second puff, which im sure affects the lungs differently then a convection hit.

But this is just bro science talk here and I really don't want to give up my convection style hits.
Peace.

 

[Grass Yes]

I think every health article I ve read recommends against long pulls. One of the main articles is the Storz&Bickle user manual for the Crafty/Mighty products.

Can you link to one of these? I don't doubt you, I just want the chance to read it.

To me I would not think there is any difference in the lungs for a deep vs shallow breath when vaping. Other than maybe you would get fewer cannabinoids absorbed by your lungs?

 

[Jill NYC]

Can you link to one of these? I don't doubt you, I just want the chance to read it.

To me I would not think there is any difference in the lungs for a deep vs shallow breath when vaping. Other than maybe you would get fewer cannabinoids absorbed by your lungs?

I decided to go down rabbit hole and try to find it… here is the manual
The most I could find was (in English) on page 45 it discusses how to inhale/exhale:

It mentions to just inhale a few seconds, but nothing more specific than that. The Pax has similar wording - and both really need a longer hit to get full vapor IME
@PeteyS - is this what you were looking at or something else?

I really wish there were studies out there somewhere... I wish I knew of a research team that was looking into long tern effects of dry herb vaping - I would immediately donate to their cause! (And volunteer myself as a test subject )

 

[Shit Snacks]

Yeah taking tiny hits like that with those vapes sounds like a great way for newbies to be disappointed with the effects of vaping entirely and go back to smoking

 

[maremaresing]

Based on this thread's very valid premise and well documented sources, I'll now be only taking shallow breaths. Will be sad to be unable to hold my breath when swimming, or take deep lungfuls on mountain peaks, but better safe than sorry.

 

[PeteyS]

Hi, Jill NYC. Yes that is the S&B statement that I was referring too.
Im not saying that they are telling us that long hits are bad, but I think they are being very conservative in how they instruct us to use their vapes until more is known, and I think that's the safest approach.
They mention to take a short pull not longer then a few seconds, and only to inhale up to 50% lung capacity. S&B being the only medical certified vape on the market, they do have some weight behind their statements.

 

[Grass Yes]

S&B being the only medical certified vape on the market, they do have some weight behind their statements.

You do know that the medical certification has nothing to do with the vapor in any way right? It's just about battery safety and electrical interference. Which is great but has nothing to say that the vapor is "safer".

 

[Shit Snacks]

I think they are being very conservative in how they instruct us to use their vapes until more is known, and I think that's the safest approach

It is safest for them because they are trying to cover their own asses? They've also limited their max temp setting, among other things, as mentioned above the medical certification is pretty meaningless and I would take everything they say with a massive grain of salt personally

 

[maremaresing]

S&B being the only medical certified vape on the market, they do have some weight behind their statements.

S&B directly mislead their customers and the public on their safety in order to drive sales. People like you believe them, and stray away from safer vapes because of it. Medical has nothing to do with the use, safety of vapor, airpath, anything.

In fact, I rate their vapes on my personal "Dangerous to long term health" list for these reasons:
-Copious use of unanodized aluminum not only in the air and vapor path, but the oven itself.
-Continuous complaints over the years of deteriorating airpaths allowing particulates to enter the lungs
-Uncleanable airpaths. A medical user that must be careful of inhaling dirt, grime, dust, debris, cat hair? Well you can't clean the airpath of this.
-Plastic? Very good plastic, but plastic in contact with super heated air. In fact, it's the plastic that cools the air! Probably fine, and certainly not the only vape to use this, but not excusable if you scam the public that you are "medically safe"

Them saying to take short breaths, even in their posted material, has nothing to do with safety. In any other conduction hybrid, I'd say "oh yes because that's how conduction vaporizers work!"

Which makes perfect sense, given that those are operating instructions for the device. They aren't telling you you can't do these things in your normal life, they are saying with their specific device this is how you get best results.

Just want to be clear, it is still within your lung's capacity to:
-Live in humid climates
-Live in arid climates
-Take a long hot shower after spending hours inhaling plant dust after mowing the lawn
-hold your breath when shotgunning a pint of ale in a long hot shower after spending hours inhaling plant dust after mowing the lawn in humid climates
-hold your breath when shotgunning a pint of ale in a long hot shower after spending hours inhaling plant dust after mowing the lawn in arid climates
-hold your breath when shotgunning a pint of ale after taking a large vapor rip in a long hot shower after spending hours inhaling plant dust after mowing the lawn in humid climates...

You get what I mean. It's important to think of these things before shouting "Fire" in the movie theater, because end readers will misunderstand the details and run with "It's unsafe to use most vapes but okay to use S&B because they are medically safe to use and this proves why".

Personally, I still can't bring myself to own a ball vape because of early reports of glass/mineral dust, and I can't feel comfortable using an anodized base on a VG or any other device because I worry about alzheimer's. It takes a lot of research to unlearn or disprove scaremongering because we naturally want to preserve our bodies.

 

[HighTime]

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