holding hits in.... DIY experiment

DevoTheStrange

Ia! Ia! Vapor Fthagn!
Ok I propose an experiment concerning holding in hits.
I've heard people push both ideas of holding it in, and holding it in is futile.
best way to find something out is through experience.
For this, I recommend using a bag style vaporizer over a whip or direct draw. Reason for this is that it is much easier to replicate hit size with a bag than it is with a whip or direct draw.
with both whip and direct draw it is extremely difficult to take consistent sized hits.
This will require you to mess around with the bag a bit though.
You are going to have to adjust the bag so that it will only hold enough vapor for one hit. So a smaller bag. Don't make it to big for one hit, don't want to make yourself so high you cant tell how heavily the hit is affecting you.
The Extreme would be perfect for this, use the elbow pack method on the small balloon.
Hopefully you will be able to produce bags that are consistent enough to do experiment.
Now the experiment is a two stage deal.
You are going to do two bags to tests the effects of holding in your vapor hit.
Now idealy you would want to be sober before each bag.
So i suggest Testing one bag, wait 6-24 hours before testing the second bag (try to be as sober as possible for each test)

First bag tested - Not holding in hit. Inhale the full contents of the bag, and do not hold it in, breath it out as soon as you are finished with the bag. Wait and document how it hits you physically.

Second bag - Holding hit, Inhale all the contents of the bag, hold in lungs for 5-15 seconds, whatever you are comfortable with, exhale, Document results.

See which one works better. The studies on vapor and how it works are few and far between when compared to studies on smoking. Smoking studies say that holding smoke in your lungs does not increase the amount of THC absorbed. So holding it in only increases your risk of resin and tar build up in your lungs. However, anecdotal evidence suggests holding your hits in with vapor is not detrimental to the experience, but could potentially increase the amount of THC absorbed.

I will attempt to do this experiment myself. But I also urge other bag vape owners to attempt as well. See what the consensus is.
 
DevoTheStrange,

the electrician

Well-Known Member
while it would be nice to think this would solve the dispute, the results themselves are going to be the ruin of it. they too will be just as subjective as the views youre trying to put to rest, i fear that whats to come is a mixture of "it did nothing" and "im well stoned now"

that said im gonna give it a go in second because i love getting stoned
 
the electrician,

DevoTheStrange

Ia! Ia! Vapor Fthagn!
yeah there will be some dispute.
but there are some out there who might have the right tolerance to actually differentiate between the two hits.
I know I can feel the difference between taking extremely large hits and a bunch of tiny ones. Big ones hit you fast and heavy, bunch of tiny ones take a while to hit, but high last longer.
So if I can tell the difference between those two. I am hoping I can with what I described above as well.

and if enough people chime in we can come to an agreed upon conclusion.
 
DevoTheStrange,

FEAR420

Well-Known Member
AFIAK the THC is absorbed into your body in 3-7 seconds...after that,youre just holding your breath. :2c:

Hopefully this "experiment" will help to disprove or prove something here.
 
FEAR420,

DevoTheStrange

Ia! Ia! Vapor Fthagn!
I've heard some people say 3-7 seconds is too long. and I have heard some say it is just right. I want to know if there is indeed a difference.

3-7 seconds is actually a long time if you have your lungs full.
 
DevoTheStrange,

lepstadder

Well-Known Member
from what i recall in one of the medical studies with the volcano they found that 8 seconds is how long you should hold it in
 
lepstadder,

Konrad_Zuse

New Member
DevoTheStrange said:
Ok I propose an experiment concerning holding in hits.
I've heard people push both ideas of holding it in, and holding it in is futile.
best way to find something out is through experience.
For this, I recommend using a bag style vaporizer over a whip or direct draw. Reason for this is that it is much easier to replicate hit size with a bag than it is with a whip or direct draw.
with both whip and direct draw it is extremely difficult to take consistent sized hits.
This will require you to mess around with the bag a bit though.
You are going to have to adjust the bag so that it will only hold enough vapor for one hit. So a smaller bag. Don't make it to big for one hit, don't want to make yourself so high you cant tell how heavily the hit is affecting you.
The Extreme would be perfect for this, use the elbow pack method on the small balloon.
Hopefully you will be able to produce bags that are consistent enough to do experiment.
Now the experiment is a two stage deal.
You are going to do two bags to tests the effects of holding in your vapor hit.
Now idealy you would want to be sober before each bag.
So i suggest Testing one bag, wait 6-24 hours before testing the second bag (try to be as sober as possible for each test)

First bag tested - Not holding in hit. Inhale the full contents of the bag, and do not hold it in, breath it out as soon as you are finished with the bag. Wait and document how it hits you physically.

Second bag - Holding hit, Inhale all the contents of the bag, hold in lungs for 5-15 seconds, whatever you are comfortable with, exhale, Document results.

See which one works better. The studies on vapor and how it works are few and far between when compared to studies on smoking. Smoking studies say that holding smoke in your lungs does not increase the amount of THC absorbed. So holding it in only increases your risk of resin and tar build up in your lungs. However, anecdotal evidence suggests holding your hits in with vapor is not detrimental to the experience, but could potentially increase the amount of THC absorbed.

I will attempt to do this experiment myself. But I also urge other bag vape owners to attempt as well. See what the consensus is.
What studies show this? Whenever I smoked I held it in and it got me high, while as if I exhaled right away wasn't as high, same stuff though. I mean it could be per person, but I know HOW I WORK, and that's all I need to know lol.

To me why were things like gas masks, the games like chicago and stuff created? Just to be false advertising?

I usually hold it in for 8 seconds, and then exhale, for both smoking and vaping.

Another thing is when smoking and holding it in you are causing yourself oxygen deprivation, so that is why you become light headed and feel tingly and cold sometimes, because you body thinks it's dying so it's trying to save the main organs. With a vape it's just the fact you're making yourself light headed because you are holding the air in for a long time, at least ofr me when I take like 40 seconds to 60 seconds of inhalation, and then keep it in for 8 seconds, year I'm going to be light headed.
 
Konrad_Zuse,

DevoTheStrange

Ia! Ia! Vapor Fthagn!
the study I am referring to is about THC absorption while smoking, I will have to track it down, it has been sited and linked several times here on FC.
and as far as I know, not many studies on vapor, not that I can find at least. And I stated that.

Lightheaded and Tingly? I don't know about you but I rarely get that, even with huge rips. The only time I ever really experienced that is with smoking hash. If i do encounter it with vaping it is not from holding it in. Those ones usually are very large hits that spend the least amount of time in my lungs.

The experiment I propose has nothing to do with feeling light headed or tingly. I am wondering if there is a difference in how long Vapor is held in the lungs.
and the reason I wonder is there have been comments here on FC promoting both ideas of holding it in (5-10 seconds) and not holding it in at all (a second or less).
 
DevoTheStrange,

Happycamper

Sweet Dreams Babycakes
DevoTheStrange said:
the study I am referring to is about THC absorption while smoking, I will have to track it down, it has been sited and linked several times here on FC.
and as far as I know, not many studies on vapor, not that I can find at least. And I stated that.

Lightheaded and Tingly? I don't know about you but I rarely get that, even with huge rips. The only time I ever really experienced that is with smoking hash. If i do encounter it with vaping it is not from holding it in. Those ones usually are very large hits that spend the least amount of time in my lungs.

The experiment I propose has nothing to do with feeling light headed or tingly. I am wondering if there is a difference in how long Vapor is held in the lungs.
and the reason I wonder is there have been comments here on FC promoting both ideas of holding it in (5-10 seconds) and not holding it in at all (a second or less).
I find it a question definitely worth exploring.
 
Happycamper,

MoeOnTheMoon

Medical Marijuana Activist
Company Rep
Problem for me is, after I get high on the first hit, it's hard to tell if the 2nd hit is making me higher because I held my breath in longer or if I'm just higher because I vaped a second hit! ;)
 
MoeOnTheMoon,

lwien

Well-Known Member
FEAR420 said:
AFIAK the THC is absorbed into your body in 3-7 seconds...after that,youre just holding your breath. :2c:
If that's the case, then what are you exhaling in those vapor clouds after 3 to 7 seconds?

With smoke, it's all that tar and combusted plant material. But that's not true with vapor.
 
lwien,

DevoTheStrange

Ia! Ia! Vapor Fthagn!
Ok... first part of experiment done about 4 hours ago... will do second part in a few hours. While I wait for the second half, must say... Damn it is hard restricting yourself to one hit when your used to many hits.

alright... Today's half of experiment is done.

Used Extreme vape. Rigged bag to be smaller. Used elbow pack with same strain. Ran both at same temp. So hopefully each bag was similar in size and thickness.
Each bag was done 6 hours apart. Nothing else was taken over the course of the day except for these two bags. Which is way less than I am used to, to be honest.

First bag - Hit not held. I inhaled the bag as quickly as possible. Only held it long enough to be sure I had inhaled the entire hit. Exhaled immediately. Results: High was very mellow, not strong. Took maybe ten minutes for it to fully hit me. I could feel the high gradually building. Very mild high, went away 30 or so minutes later.

Second bag - Held in hit. This time instead of immediately exhaling I held it in for 10 seconds (Timed it). 10 seconds is a lot longer than I had initially thought. Mentally I was at ten before the timer even hit 4 seconds. Results: Could feel slight effect. At the 2 minute mark I was feeling as high as I at the 10 minute mark with the previous balloon. So the high hit me noticeably quicker. Now onto the high. I would consider it still pretty weak, but I think that is due to the size of the hit. However, it did feel stronger than the first bag, especially at the 10 minute mark


Now I am going to do the same thing tomorrow but reverse the order of the two bags.
it is interesting, todays results are very similar to me messing around with the size of hits I take off my PD.
 
DevoTheStrange,

DevoTheStrange

Ia! Ia! Vapor Fthagn!
Looking back on yesterday I would say that the differences between the two high were noticeable but not enough for me to say I would prefer to one over the other.
The only major difference was the onset of high. The held in longer hit had a quicker effect on my body. Now I must not discount the fact that I thought that maybe the second bag i felt higher because it hit me quicker. This could be a possibility. Another could be waiting 6 hours was not long enough wait time between bags, i still might have felt a bit of that first bag, although it was a tiny hit.
I think to counter this I must use a larger hit.
So today. I reverse order of bags.
and readjust the bag to a slightly larger bag.

First bag - Held in hit. Once again timed to ten seconds. This time more difficult to hold in because slightly larger hit. Nice strong high, just under what one PD stem will do to me. Same results as yesterday for how long it took to feel the effects. Almost a miniscule feeling afterward (which could be due to O2 deprivation, but no tinglies or lightheadedness.) then after two minutes or so, there's the high.
the high only went up for a few minutes more before leveling off, well before the 10 minute mark.

will do the not held in bag in 8 hours.

I will also note the duration of each high. Still pretty high right now.


yesterdays results made me ponder; What if no matter the size of the hit you will only absorb so much THC regardless? What if holding the hit in only affects the duration in which the High hits you?


EDIT: did second bag, not held in. Mirrored previous days results. And like the first bag, due to size, the high was stronger than it was the day before. I would say it felt like it was close to the high from the first bag, just not quite as strong. It did take a while longer for the effects of the bag to creep up on me. The only difference between this bag and the bag done previously is the high lasted longer. Even longer the held in bag.

when comparing the two highs the held in bag is more intense high of shorter duration. Immediately exhaled high is almost just as strong but has a more mellow quality to it. It also seems like the high takes its time tapering off compared to the held in hit.
The major difference between the two that I experienced was the onset of the high. Hits that were held in seemed to Peak much sooner than those not held in.
 
DevoTheStrange,

DevoTheStrange

Ia! Ia! Vapor Fthagn!
So after doing it for two days. My conclusions of Holding in a Hit vs not holding it in.
For me at least, I have found that there is a difference between the two highs. But it is a tiny difference. If you have a low tolerance you might not tell the difference between the two while you are experiencing them.
The held in hit high is slightly stronger than the one not held in.
I would say the major difference between the two hits lay in both the length of the high and the duration of the Onset of high.
The high from holding it in can be felt a tiny bit after exhale and only takes a minute or two peaking before the high plateaus off. When not held in you don't feel it upon exhale and it takes up to ten minutes for the high to finish peaking and level off.
The not held in hit seems to last a bit longer, but in a more mellow way. The held in hit high does not seem to last as long. And the held in hit's high seems to go away sooner and more abruptly. It does not taper off like the not held in it.

So as before. I wonder if holding the hit in only creates a slightly stronger high. I am beginning to think how you inhale the high strongly affects how that high will hit you.
So for me, holding hits has more influence over the length of the peak and the length of the high than it does with the strength of the high.
 
DevoTheStrange,

stickstones

Vapor concierge
I want to quote some earlier magicflight posts that address this subject. Those Blissville guys tend to take a very scientific and measured approach to vaporizing and their reports on topics, so I think his comments are very valuable:

"If you can see the vapor on exhale, it is either wasted vapor or smoke -- both conditions to be avoided. Really, the best test of the Box is how how it delivers the medical qualities of the herb -- what the user feels like 3 minutes after taking a few hits, rather than on what can be seen when exhaling or what is felt in the first 30 seconds or so."

And finally, one of my favorite posts ever:

"To add some more to what Max and Reece, etc, have said, I agree that it depends as much on how deeply you inhale as it does on how long you hold it in. Filling ones lungs fully, drawing deeply all of the way in so as to get the vapor all of the way into the lower lungs is far more practical than holding a smaller volume of vapor only in the upper lungs and throat for any amount of time. The throat and the larger upper channels of the lungs are very poor absorbers -- the real work is done in the deeper passages of the lungs. To truly take a hit, you must fully receive it into yourself.

With our breath there are three factors we can control: 1) how fast, 2) how deep, and 3) how long. For example, to get more oxygen, the body has a natural response -- the yawn -- which specifically is a deeper breath, not a faster one or one 'held in' longer. To adsorb even more oxygen (hyperventilate), the key is to breath both more quickly and more deeply, with the deep depth being the more important factor (note: you can breathe fast and shallow without any effect). The factors that increase the ability of the lungs to adsorb THC are exactly the same as those needed to improve oxygen adsorption. Molecule size, kind, mass, etc, makes absolutely no difference to this proportionality.

There are certain psycho-physiological effects also. With a bong, the wide shape of the mouthpiece naturally encourages the user to take deeper hits farther into the lungs (the mouth is open in the same manner as with a yawn). Drawing on a narrow tube, the user has to specifically and mentally overcome the bodies natural tendency to take only a short breath (as in 'sipping') -- one that fills only the throat, and hence will be very poorly adsorbed. To get the same effect out of the Box as with a bong, we instruct users to take long slow deeply drawn hits. The slowness is for the Box heating characteristics -- the longness is so that the user takes a deep hit, fully into the deep passages of the lungs, so as to get full value for their effort.

We recommend that Box users first learn how to control the temp in the Box by controlling their draw rate, and then work to take fewer, much longer and deeper draws. With practice, you will find that filling the lungs thoroughly and completely in one hit is far more powerful and effective than taking the same exact volume of vapor in multiple smaller hits. Depending on your lung capacity, with most Boxes a good draw will last 15 to 25 seconds. However, be sure to have completely mastered temp control before attempting to increase your draw time -- otherwise you will find yourself coughing.

Also, since we are on the subject, the reports that I have seen indicate that 95% of whatever is going to be adsorbed will have done so within the first 2 seconds of actual vapor contact with the bronchial passages. This means that the clock starts only at the moment one has completely filled their lungs, and not before. It is also important to recognize that this does not mean that everything that is in a single breath is going to be adsorbed, no matter how long you hold it -- it only states that most of whatever is going to happen will do so in the first 2 seconds. Vapor that is held in the throat and in the larger lung passages will not really be adsorbed into the body no matter how long you wait (wrong kind of tissue) -- and exhaling these into a bag for someone else to use will allow them to get some also.

As such, really sophisticated hitting technique (optimal adsorption efficiency) with the Box involves several stages:

- 1; You take a few full extra deep breaths at a normal rate to pre-charge your body with
extra oxygen and to get a good sense of your available lung capacity.


- 2; The battery is put fully in and heating starts. The temperature begins climbing quickly in the Box.
You watch for vapor by looking strait down the Box vapor channel (down the draw hole -- NOTE: Be
sure to hold the Box horizontally throughout this process so that the material in the tray does not
all fall down to one end of the screen -- this leads to uneven heating and poor taste).


- 3; Two or three seconds later, the temp in the Box is about right and the you begin drawing
at first slowly, and then only a little faster, adjusting your draw rate depending on the sensed
temp and taste. For maximum sensitivity, using the Box in its Native configuration is ideal.


- 4; The long slow draw continues until you begin to sense that you have reached about 80% or so
of your lung capacity (perhaps 15 seconds later), at which point you pull the battery back slightly
to stop the heating. You continue your draw at a somewhat faster rate so as to capture all of
the remaining vapor still being formed in the Box and to assist it in cooling off.


- 5; Four or five seconds later, the Box is cool and no longer producing vapor. At this point you
continue to breath the rest of the way in, filling your lungs completely and ensuring that all of the
remaining vapor (the 'vapor tail') is moved from your throat into your deep lungs were it will do
some good.


- 6; You hold your breath, lungs completely full, for about two seconds and then you breath
out naturally through your nose. This allows you to savor any remaining flavor and to
know exactly how much of a hit you have just taken. You can breathe normally again.


- 7; You shake the Box, noticing and ensuring an even mixing. Turning the Box upside down,
tapping sharply, and shaking side to side (with the Box still upside down) is usually sufficient
to ensure that all material is released from the screen and that larger chunks are broken up.
Righting the Box again, you shake side to side again to settle the material in the tray.


- 8; Take note of the color of the material in the Box. If it is green, go back to step 1 and take
a few more deep breaths.


On this forum, there has been a lot of attention paid to the inherent efficiency of the vaporizers used. For optimal results, equal attention needs to be paid to the inherent efficiency of the user technique. Good user technique can sometimes make even a poorly designed vaporizer work well, and with a moderately good vaporizer, can really make it zing!

The technique outlined above specifically for the Box has a number of advantages. For one thing, because no vapor is ever emitted directly from the Box to the air, the level of smell associated with the device remains at a true minimum. Also, because nearly all of the vapor is deeply adsorbed into the body, the user does not emit much smell either. Because the battery is only being used whole producing vapor, the effective usefulness of a battery charge is significantly extended also (energy efficiency). Also, the deep breath in the beginning (step 1) ensures that you have enough oxygen in your body so that the whole process feels more natural.

Finally, in regards to visibility, if you see anything on the exhale associated with step 6 above, it is very likely that you are running the Box too hot and that you need to drawing slightly faster during steps 3 and 4. Whatever you see is going to be either 1) condensing vapor (very light and milky) which is now no longer accessible (wasted THC) or 2) particulate matter (smoke) which is unnecessary and bad for your health. If it is only vapor that you see on exhale, you need to judge your lung capacity lower in step 4 and ensure that you leave enough time for the Box to cool and enough remaining breath for you to fully capture the vapor tail in your deep lungs. If it is smoke that you see, you need to be drawing faster or sooner -- don't wait as long to start drawing in step 3 and practice your breath and rate control until you can ensure that you can maintain an even taste.

Also, under no circumstances should the battery ever be in the Box when no one is drawing on it for more than about 3 seconds -- something to be aware of if you are ever in a group and passing the Box. A lot of people pass a Box when it is 'on' to a new user and then explain how to use it -- all the while the Box is overheating the herb and when the new user does finally take a taste, it is way too hot and harsh. A much better approach is to show how to put the battery in, hand the Box over without the battery completely in and explain that a long slow draw is required. Let the new user push the battery in and take their hit -- as soon as its done, take the Box back from them and withdraw the battery, showing them that it is necessary to do so. Ensure that each person in a group applies and withdraws the battery individually BEFORE letting them pass the Box around hot.

As always, questions on any of this are welcome.

-- Magic-flight"
 
stickstones,

DevoTheStrange

Ia! Ia! Vapor Fthagn!
we should make a Science of Vaporizing thread. One that collects all tips and tricks that apply to all vaporizer models, along with the reasoning behind that particular tip or trick.
 
DevoTheStrange,

stonemonkey55

Chief Vapor Officer
Manufacturer
maybe someone can clarify for me because I am having a hard time understanding...

So you absorb as much as you can absorb in 2 seconds right? But the two seconds begin when you reach about 80% of your capacity?

And if you exhale anything visible it is either condensed vapor or smoke?

Is MF implying that you should take smaller, but deeper hits? Where the lungs more readily absorb the active ingredient?

I find this subject fascinating as I've always wondered what's the most efficient way to vaporize and what is the healthiest way to vaporize.

I'd hate to think that I'm wasting a bunch of good stuff in my videos but then again, sometimes it's just fun vaping however your lungs want to vape.

If anyone can shed some clarity of MF's post and whether I am interpreting things correctly, I'd greatly appreciate it.
 
stonemonkey55,

DevoTheStrange

Ia! Ia! Vapor Fthagn!
I think when you take those massive huge milked hits it has its own effect.
In my mind I think the body freaks out by having so much vapor in the lungs vs smoke. I think the body reacts by trying to absorb any 02 in those big hits and absorbs at a faster rate.
Also I believe with the huge ass hits there is more of a chance in coating your lungs in THC condensate. Oils that your body will continue to absorb long after the vaping session is done.


I am slowly beginning to believe that our bodies will only absorb so much vapor regardless of the hit size. However larger hits leave behind condensate which is further absorbed. Making you feel higher than you would on the hit alone.
 
DevoTheStrange,

DevoTheStrange

Ia! Ia! Vapor Fthagn!
And another thing regarding hits. We are breathing in vapor right. Ever take in a huge hit and feel like you just ran a marathon. Vapor should act pretty much like steam right?

So watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uy-SN5j1ogk
This is what happens when you take steam and introduce it to a cold environment. It condenses causing a vacuum making the can implode.

Is the same thing going on in our lungs with the THC vapor? is it condensing slightly pulling in on our lungs?
Yes our lungs are open, but when we hold them in we close them off, sealing them up.

I know sometimes I take a huge hit it hurts my chest and I have to immediately exhale to gain relief.
 
DevoTheStrange,

Lo

Combustion free since '09
I find this topic fascinating! It's been too long since I was out of school!!

So, I always imagined that the THC, etc. was transported the same way oxygen is introduced into the bloodstream. I'm wondering now if that maybe isn't the case. Are the actives being absorbed by the lung tissue itself or the alveoli that carry the oxygen?? Maybe they don't touch the actives. Where's our resident medical professionals?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulmonary_alveolus
http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec04/ch038/ch038d.html


I thought I remembered the oxygen transport process was on-going like a loading/unloading dock with cells constantly showing up to dump their Co2 load and pick up oxygen. If that was the case and the actives were transported the same way it would mean that new cells would show up and grab some 'stuff' even after the '2 seconds'.

I'm confused... I'd love to understand the process, I like to learn!
 
Lo,
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