High Times article on a study of vape temperatures

[stressed]

it's an article done by the university of leiden and high times picked it up. it was pretty interesting and i was wondering what you guys thought of these higher temps they mention.

they used a volcano as a means of testing the temps that different cannabinoids vaporize in a volcano, but i'm assuming these temps would transfer to other units like my extreme Q.

most of what i've read refers to using lower temps. now i'm curious.



http://hightimes.com/read/studying-vaporizer-insight-proper-vape-use


"...
the third part of a three-part study concerning cannabis consumption done by the University of Leiden had some interesting insights about the most effective way to use a Volcano.

They placed dried cannabis flowers in the chamber and vaporized at 170 °C (338 °F), 185 °C (365 °F), 200 °C (392 °F), 215 °C (419 °F) and 230 °C (446 °F). They passed the vapor through solvents to dissolve it and analyzed its composition using high-performance liquid chromatography. The scientists also did the same for the smoke coming off a joint for comparison.

They found higher temperatures more efficiently forced cannabinoids into the vapor form. Since they knew exactly how much THC their Bedrocan variety of flower had (16.9 % total), they calculated theyield of cannabinoids at each temperature. At 170 °C, the Volcano only yielded 24%; at 200 °C it yielded 60%; and at 230 °C the Volcano managed to put 77% of the cannabinoids from the original flower into vapor. Smoking cannabis in a joint only yielded 43% of the cannabinoids."



i've only gone above 392 F - for a couple bags full. i usually stay between 375 F and 385 F.


i'm going to have to try 446 degrees F. for a few days and see what's what. but right now i need a nap from my wake and vape.

 

[HD Springer]

If this is true, how does a joint loose so much thc.This is real eye opener

 

[Chill Dude]

If this is true, how does a joint loose so much thc.This is real eye opener

As the article states.. A joint looses a lot of THC due to the cherry and ash.

I'm a big proponent of higher temperature vaping. I generally stay between 400F and 440F. At the higher temperatures I find the effects stronger with a body high similar to smoking. That said, I totally disagree with the last paragraph of the High Times article basically stating that all vaporizors will not combust based on the fact that true combustion doesn't occur until around 554F (290C). I don't know where they get that information. That makes no sense to me..

 

[jojo monkey]

"they only analyzed THC, THCA, CBG and CBN"

Well they missed all the good stuff, you know, the chemicals that shape the high.

I vape around .1 grams at a lower temp to get a flavor hit and then go up 40 degrees for the mostly flavorless "clouds". I can't find tongue coating flavor at the high temps.

 

[Chill Dude]

"they only analyzed THC, THCA, CBG and CBN"

Well they missed all the good stuff, you know, the chemicals that shape the high.

I vape around .1 grams at a lower temp to get a flavor hit and then go up 40 degrees for the mostly flavorless "clouds". I can't find tongue coating flavor at the high temps.

What is the good stuff and what chemicals are you referring to?

 

[jojo monkey]

Chill Dude Terpenes

 

[Chill Dude]

Chill Dude Terpenes

I always thought Terpenes were more associated with smell and taste. However, after digging deeper it appears that terpenes have a synergistic relationship with cannabinoids in the overall effect of the cannabis high. Thanks for pointing that out!

 

[stressed]

i tried a few bags last night at 446 F. about 1/10th gram per bagfull. the first bag was harshish but the 2nd was not bad. i didn't even notice it on the 3rd. like drinking booze. after the first one, it's all good.


i've been toking the same 3 genetics for 2 years now, so i'm very familiar with the highs.

one bag got me very high just now (7 hours later than i usually wake and bake) but i'm going to have to do this experiment for a week or so to see if i notice any difference in high at all.

i can handle a harsher taste. all i care about is the high.

the experiment has taken a bad turn.

yesterday, i started coughing a bit. what is called a productive cough (kind of flemy).

that's not normal. this morning i just did my first bag o the day. i coughed from the first hit until a few minutes after the last. i rarely cough when i take hits off the bag.

i'm not sick (i don't think), so the harshness on my lungs of vaping at that high a temp is not worth any extra high i might get. i'm going to go back to 375 to 385 F and when my lungs are back to normal, i'll bump it up a bit more for one final test.


i was thinking that maybe i could get down to vaping just .5 of a gram a day but .75 of a gram keeps me where i want to be all day long and i'm good with that.

my lungs are 60 so your mileage may vary.



P.S. - one bag usually gets me nicely high for 2 hours. after one bag at the higher temp, i am very high right now. verging on being stoned. i wish i could continue the experiment at the higher temp. i will try again at 200 C.

 

[weedemon]

I was just talking to my buddy about this last night. I made the numbers up (and told him i was doing so) but it's nice to see what I was saying confirmed

 

[hoptimum]

If this is true, how does a joint loose so much thc.This is real eye opener

Pyrolysis

 

[Pain]

If your going to do high temp vaping then use a water bubbler to avoid coughing.

 

[Solomon]

Okay, so this study is a bit confusing, and contrary to other studies, such as this one:

This study filled bags as well, but used a Gas Chromatograph and Mass Spectrometer (as opposed to measuring dissolved gases via a Liquid Chromatograph). The Vapir Rise is also a forced air convection vape like the Volcano, so unless they are measuring the temperatures differently, the results should be similar.

I'd guess that there's something "off" about "how" and "what" they measured. As someone else said, measuring a convection vape in the first minute is nothing like measuring it at 5 minutes. The machine says 400F, but what is the temp of the actual herb? How long was the vaping process itself?

I'm positive that if you set your vape to 420F you will get a LOT more vapor in 30 seconds than if it's set to 360F, but that's simply because you're literally creating more vapor in a shorter period of time at a higher temp, and if you looked at the ABV, it would probably look pretty cooked. But who vapes like that? The same herb in 10 mins at 380 will look just as cooked, but provide a much more pleasant experience - less harshness, better taste, and more absorption time.

I think the real question is - are most of the cannabinoids vaporized by the time you are done vaping. If I can get the same percentage of active vape in 10 mins at a lower temp than 1 min at a higher temp, then both are equally effective (and one is a LOT more enjoyable)

The actual vid is here:

 

[hoptimum]

Has anyone found the source study from the University of Leiden referenced in this story?

 

[Tweak]

First study they mention is the one we've already seen.

The one the article is based on is behind a paywall, ugh.

 

[hoptimum]

The High Times article has a date of March 2015, but the report they cite is from 2009

 

[Tweak]

Well they cite that study but:

"HIGH TIMES did its own study using an Herbalizer, a similar system that fills up balloons and lets you adjust the temperature. Weighing the sample of herb before and after vaporization, we were able to run our own simpler experiment."

 

[hoptimum]

true enough. the original experiment used liquid chromatography to measure the THC after vaporization at different temps and the HT experiment measured the mass of the herb before and after vaporization. HT is apparently extrapolating vaporization extraction efficiency based on how much ABV remains following vaporization at different temperatures. I don't think their technique can tell you much about the percentage of THC that was extracted, though, as the University of Leiden study does. But I could be wrong

 

[BuzzDanklin]

So what I am taking from both of these studies, is to run my first few bags at 380f and then finish off at 446f to hit both levels of efficiency?

I get the highest thc per bag with the 380f bags, and then going up to the 446f bags uses the highest amount per bowl.

Does this sound right?, or have I been hitting the vape a bit too much today

 

[jojo monkey]

THC is one of 483 chemicals. Don't forget:

Caryophylene - 119C - 246.2F
Pinene - 156C - 312.8F
Myrcene - 168C - 334.4F
Carene - 168C - 334.4F
Cineole - 176C - 348.8F
Limonene - 177C - 350.6F
Cymene - 177C - 350.6F
Linalool - 198C - 388.4F
Terpineol - 209C - 408F
Borneol - 210C - 410F
alpha Terpineol - 218C - 424.4F
Pulegone - 224C - 435.2F


Taken from:
http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/vaporization-temperature-dependent-selection-of-effects.1637/

 

[macbill]

I prefer at least a two-pass of different temps per bowl of "any-unit"/"any vaporizer". I'm a lung-wuss, so a high-temp-fresh-bowl vaporizes too much of the canabinoids and the I-don't-know-whatalls at say, 425 F, into the vapor and I cough as if I had inhaled glass dust.

I like to first vape at 330-360F for that bunch of goodies. Then I'll go 400 or so for 2nd pass. If I go a 3rd pass, it seems pretty well spent.

 

[stressed]

well, i've come to a conclusion.

the conclusion is that i don't know what i've concluded. i have settled on 410 degrees for the time being. i like the high at this temp and it doesn't bother my ancient lungs too much.

just like always, if i want a lighter high (less body) i turn it down to 380 or so.

as always, it just comes down to what you're looking for at that particular time.

 

[macbill]

There is no right or wrong way. There is just your way, after trying various techniques and careful study: whatever seems right for you.

 

[olivianewtonjohn]

Ill start by saying I didnt read the study so I could be wrong here but:

I dont understand the point of these studies. So I get less cannabinoids at low temp, so what? Isnt that kind of obvious? So lets say I fill a volcano bag at low temp getting 20% cannabinoids (thin cloud), I then fill another at high temp at get say 30% cannabinoids; how is this so different than starting at a higher temp to begin with and only using 1 bag? Plus we are measuring cannbinoids in a bag, what good does that do to me? It still needs to get into my blood stream and bind to my receptors, we need information on how much gets absorbed. I am assuming at a lower temp you get lower cannabinoids because the bag is made up of more oxygen.

So basically common sense?

 

[shredder]

I've been using a volcano for 6 years and I know the type of herb, the density, moisture level, and turpenes are all variables that need to be taken into consideration. From the same plant a fresh bud full of turpenes and an old dry bud are worlds apart in taste, and while closer in effect, but still there are some differences.

For my own use, I don't like harsh hot vapors. So I quit early and save the abv for extracting oils. I dont think I'm wasting too much.

 

[NinjaMindTriks]

Depending on the herb. I start the bowl at lower temps and then raise the temp for extra bags off the same bowl until I finish it maxed out. It saves my throat and I can get everything out of my herb.