High temp vs low temp. Health concerns over the long term.

[GoldenBud]

I'm willing to bet that exposure to hot air from a stem convection vape is more damaging than the oxidation and compounds present in conduction vapor.

I'm in the same opinion as you have, but, I dunno if it's because the materials (ss/ti/copper/nickel) release some kind of 'vapor pressure' even in the minimal dosage, OR because the herb inside the chamber is getting a bit oxidized while the temp of the chamber/bowl is being raised up. really dunno, and would like to know....and I hope I'll find the answer....

PS
I had a mucus because of all the vapor, reclaim etc'.... I vape for years, and took Acetylcysteine (tablets which are water-soluble) for 10 days, 3 times a day, no more mucus, so good. I recommend it if you have mucus after years of vaping...it can be annoying AF..... (I vape at very high temps lately..and bubble hash didn't help to the situation I assume..)

 

[Farid]

I was just thinking of the hot air, not even taking the materials into account, but that's another good point. The heating element of a convection vape will be much hotter and thus more likely to offgas.

I just remember the studies they did saying drinking very hot beverages increases throat cancer risks. Add the dryness of vapor and I'd think it wouldn't be great.

 

[GoldenBud]

I just remember the studies they did saying drinking very hot beverages increases throat cancer risks. Add the dryness of vapor and I'd think it wouldn't be great.

great point too bro... you made me realize and imagine the water molecule vs the oily molecules of the weed... that's a hell of an interesting topic... because basically water molecules are so tiny, and the thc is so big, and i think the thc because of its STICKNESS of the thc/terpz, it will stick the cancer you know? it reduce the motivation of the cancer to reproduce! something tells me none of us will get cancer, but we need to wait another 10-30 years for our study to complete!!!
we have like people who vape for 10-20 years, but not many of them I GUESS....

 

[florduh]

We don't have long term studies on vaporists. But don't we have some long term data on joint smokers? A joint sort of functions like a convection vape. The cherry is the heating element. As you draw air through the joint, hot air vaporizes the unburnt weed. And the "heating element" in this situation is over 1,000F.

 

[Siebter]

I just remember the studies they did saying drinking very hot beverages increases throat cancer risks. Add the dryness of vapor and I'd think it wouldn't be great.

I remember that study too, but it's a good example how one study in reality says nothing, but rather should invite the rest of the science community to make even deeper investigations. The original study had many weak points and since then no link between hot beverages and (esophageal) cancer has been found.

Esophageal Cancer Risk: The Truth About Hot Drinks Like Coffee and Tea

There is very little evidence that drinking hot beverages increases esophageal cancer risk.

www.mskcc.org

I also don't see a link between drinking very hot beverages (that lead to actual burning tissue) and vaping. I have been riding the dragon a few times when vaping, but never have I experienced vapor being so hot that it burned my throat or even felt like that. That doesn't even happen when we smoke.

 

[ChefFrançais]

Yeah, I see benzene in those charts at the higher temps all the time, but what I don't understand: the boiling point of benzene is at 80°C / 176°F, but those charts put it in the range of 200°C / 400°F. How does that translate to each other?

I've tried, since two years, to bring knowledge here.. to be spit up by the potheads..

The "Maillard" !

Or its extrapolation.
Already well studied for food industry.
Benzen are by-product of "Maillard" reaction happening above 200C.
They are not "in", in solid/liquid form before, and so can't boil at low temp.
They are "created" afterward.

[Identification of alkylbenzenes being formed in the model reaction of ribose with lysine] - PubMed

The identification of the compounds being formed during broiling of meat is very important, because of the fact that many of arising substances are considered to be unhealthy and undesirable food contaminants. Thus these compounds should be routinely investigated in food products.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Thermal break bring those C6H6, THC is just C21.H30.O2...

 

[Siebter]

@ChefFrançais – Okay, good point, thanks for clarification, I absolutely appreciate it.

The next question is: what amounts are created when vaping cannabis at higher temps and what kind of risks can we expect from these amounts? I'm pretty sure the numbers we gain from meat cooking experiments are not transferable to cannabis vaping, are they?

 

[ChefFrançais]

@ChefFrançais – Okay, good point, thanks for clarification, I absolutely appreciate it.

The next question is: what amounts are created when vaping cannabis at higher temps and what kind of risks can we expect from these amounts? I'm pretty sure the numbers we gain from meat cooking experiments are not transferable to cannabis vaping, are they?

Even with food, it's still quite unkwown.
It's a next physics nobel prize u asking me to answer to, here...

For now, Maillard have been only theorize with food, but thermal activity on carbon structure is a whole science branche, as fluid mecanics can be.

Cook on a pan (conduction), isn't an oven. And "blasted convection" are not oven too..

U will have to map the matrix appliance of thermal activity, over different coumpound (cannabis have a lot of, leaves are not kief), Different aerodynamics, different grind (coarse/fine)..

Human modelisation already hardly do aerodynamics.. if i add thermal aplliance and its effect...

But i don't want a Nobel prize, and i could..

so i will just give u one of the first risk. For meat, they size the risk with carcinogen amount present on it, not from the fume of the cooking. (Black/dark ABV)

One of the direct risk, for cannabis inhalation, is the anaesthetics property of those coumpound. which make smokers cough the next morning, of bad wet(?) Cough, phlegm, until it becomes blood..

With vaporizer, u may cough right away, no anaesthetics. Which let trigger your self-recovery. Thing smoke block, putting its latent pain/death...

 

[23jim]

I imagine benzene production vaping at say 400 F is a tiny fraction compared to combustion plus all the other nasty stuff you get from combustion. But I don't want any so I stay under 392 F all the time. It's the reason I tossed by dynavap as I combusted way to frequently.

 

[ChefFrançais]

But I don't want any so I stay under 392 F all the time.

No vaporizer is perfectly accurate, some playing with high delta, blast effect..

Most of them are randomly calibrate, the reason basic knob between 1-10 compete in accuracy.

It's all about the roast.
Someone mention the terps

Methacrolein (MC) and Benzene Levels Produced per mg Terpene Starting Material When Vaporized at the Highest Temperature Range Investigated, ca. 550 °C (Ti) −500 °C (Tf) Using Single Replicate

But terps are well protect when in plant fiber, as being resilient to breaking. the most by-product comes from those fibers, just keep an healthy roast.

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

@ChefFrançais To my knowledge terps are in the trichomes which are on the surface,not in the fiber,maybe they soak in it after the initial hit.
The study is about high temp dabbing on ti surface,as many dabbers use to do in the past,heating nails red hot,bleh.. Anyway it can be avoided if you stay under a certain temp,discussed above . Also i keep repeating this,but you can get big clouds below 200C you just need a powerful vaporizer. Temperature level and amount (calories/watts) are two different things.,
Food gets cooked faster in 3000w oven at 200 C then in 1000w.

 

[ChefFrançais]

@ChefFrançais To my knowledge terps are in the trichomes which are on the surface,not in the fiber,maybe they soak in it after the initial hit.
The study is about high temp dabbing on ti surface,as many dabbers use to do in the past,heating nails red hot,bleh.. Anyway it can be avoided if you stay under a certain temp,discussed above .

So u got wrong knowledge, everything have terps, any part of any plant, leaves, branches, even roots ( sesquiterpenoid ). In lot of plants not having "Trichoma"..

I vape leaves which have comolete different terps profil, but are roasting fast due to the low resin. It's that oily aspect, viscosity, which give terps their relative resilience to thermal break.

Temperature level and amount (calories/watts) are two different things.,
Food gets cooked faster in 3000w oven at 200 C then in 1000w.

You're wrong too. And it's the "Delta" part of what i said.
200C is 200C, the only difference between 1000W and 3000W would be the heat up, and how it stabilizes after. If u open the oven, the 3000w will have easier recovery. But if the 1000W cook slower, (without opening), it means it just can't handle the 200C.
Which is, True though, that vaporizer can't handle the thermal appliance all the same way. Blast of low Mass ones...
Low temp "Big Cloud" need higher ammount of herb, and stabilize temp (no drop, or scorching..).

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

@ChefFrançais
""Low temp "Big Cloud" need higher ammount of herb, and stabilize temp (no drop, or scorching..).""
Not to my experience ,i have zero problems getting big clouds off 0.05-0.1 . It is one hit extraction and temp is below 200 C. Maybe you need to explore various tools . What vapes do you own in your arsenal ?
I have my own concept which the heater is 20 times the mass of the bowl,roast is very light brown ,although it is fully extracted.

 

[Farid]

Working in a construction environment has made me care much less about things like vaping temp's health risks.

It's a good subject to research, it just will have no impact on my personal choices.

 

[Siebter]

Already well studied for food industry.

Even with food, it's still quite unkwown.
It's a next physics nobel prize u asking me to answer to, here...

That's a bit confusing.

 

[PeteyS]

Yeah, ive noticed that when going through more stressful events, cannabis can really play off of this stress, and result in paranoia, and anxiety.
For example, I remember getting a "return to work" call after 3 months off(parental leave for first born). After this phone call, i had the worst high, paranoia, stress, and everything. Almost like a bad trip on psychedelics.

However, when everything is fine and dandy in life, cannabis seems to be a great tool for relaxation.
My point is, cannabis should nt be relied on every day, unless prescribed my a doctor. and instead, be used as a tool or "enhancer" for when you already feel good.

I do believe cannabis can help in other ways, but for now, im just referring to cannabis usage for stress, and depression.

 

[GoldenBud]

Yeah, ive noticed that when going through more stressful events, cannabis can really play off of this stress, and result in paranoia, and anxiety.

also depends on the strain/pheno , some buds can always give good effects, but these sativas are becoming so rare in our world
some strains can leave you paranoid but eating good meal + drinking a lot of water will take it off pretty much immediately..if you still vape inside your own limits... (like, if i'm used to 0.1gr per session, per 1hour, i won't go 0.3gr in one shot..)

 

[Farid]

I find that regardless of the strain, high THC content will cause paranoia in me if my tolerance is low.

My point is, cannabis should nt be relied on every day, unless prescribed my a doctor. and instead, be used as a tool or "enhancer" for when you already feel good.

My experience has been the opposite. If I don't use every day, my tolerance is too low, and I get anxious every time I use cannabis. The only way to avoid this is to use small amounts every day, and slowly increase your dose to slowly build up a tolerance.

 

[florduh]

I may be in the minority here, but here's how I view cannabis with depression, stress, and paranoia.

If I'm feeling particularly stressed and depressed, yes. Cannabis can make those feelings seem worse. I don't find this to be a bad thing though, personally. How I handle it is, I grab the raciest "sativa" I have in my stash. Vape to the point of those feelings seeming worse. Then, I sit with those feelings for a few beats. Then I make a strong decision to let that whole story in my head go, at least just for a moment. I can always go back to feeling like shit in a moment, but just for a few seconds...I decide to stop torturing myself with my mind.

Every single time I sort of burst through that film of mental bullshit, and come out the other side feeling significantly better. Now, I don't have any diagnosed mental health issues. So this isn't medical advice. It's just what I find helpful. I believe cannabis is medicine, both for body and mind.

 

[Son Dog]

I may be in the minority here, but here's how I view cannabis with depression, stress, and paranoia.

If I'm feeling particularly stressed and depressed, yes. Cannabis can make those feelings seem worse. I don't find this to be a bad thing though, personally. How I handle it is, I grab the raciest "sativa" I have in my stash. Vape to the point of those feelings seeming worse. Then, I sit with those feelings for a few beats. Then I make a strong decision to let that whole story in my head go, at least just for a moment. I can always go back to feeling like shit in a moment, but just for a few seconds...I decide to stop torturing myself with my mind.

Every single time I sort of burst through that film of mental bullshit, and come out the other side feeling significantly better. Now, I don't have any diagnosed mental health issues. So this isn't medical advice. It's just what I find helpful. I believe cannabis is medicine, both for body and mind.

Dude, you just described my process as well! Beautiful shit.

 

[hausland]

Vape to the point of those feelings seeming worse. Then, I sit with those feelings for a few beats. Then I make a strong decision to let that whole story in my head go, at least just for a moment.

Yeah, my experience with cannabis as well as with other psychedelics (note: cannabis is clearly also a psychedelic ) is that there are different degrees of “difficult” …lighter occurrences of anxiety/etc can sometimes be “willed away” by refocussing one’s attention or just deciding to not engage…as it gets more intense though, focussing on the breath and really trying to be present with the breath on each inhalation/exhalation becomes my go to…as intensity increases, I’ve come to the conclusion that the only way out is through basically…trust, presence, surrender, patience, presence…I try to enjoy the hard moments as well…as I once discovered with mushrooms, it’s not a “bad trip” by default, just difficult..it turns “bad” when I resist the experience too vehemently. So giving in with trust is key.

On topic: I find the discussion here very interesting. My layman experience with it is that lower temp vaping (between 165-185C) usually I don’t feel the days after…if I go above 200C, it’s possible that I will feel more affected in the days after…so there’s at least a subjective difference to me for sure, but it’s not consistent…I imagine quality & type of product make a difference as well.

Similar as @Farid though, I don’t worry too much about this, I live in a big city so air quality is not great anyway and I do smoke tobacco occasionally, so vaping is the least of my worries

 

[Marlox]

A conduction vape is not healthier than a convenction vape at all...
To reach the same core-temp in the bowl, the conduction-vape has to be hotter on the bowls surfaces, thus it could be burning the material at higher temps that directly touches the surfaces.
With convection, you can exactly adjust the temp that will go through all of the material in the bowl, no hot spots at the walls.
For sure it also depends on the heater. If your heater is stainless, there are no evaporations at usual temps. If you use an old heatgun with cheap chinese heating-wires, there could be oxidized flakings getting inhaled. Water-filter could prevent most of that. Titanoxide for example is a very bad thing to inhale...

If you can feel hot air going down your lungs, your temp is way too high^^

Temp should be set on the lowest end that reaches the desired temp, not at the highest. Like most of the people do not do it... If you can't get your bowl roasted, even when hitting it for a minute or two, but still get the herbs extracted after some seconds, then you have the right temp-setting. But this means a few seconds of "heating" without big clouds.
Most people have their temps adjusted to a level that produces thick clouds fast, but burning the material when hitting it longer than a few seconds.



Your bronchia are very sensible sensors for unhealthy aspirations. If they make you cough, you are probably in an unhealthy temp-range.
I am a medical user in germany, vaping every day, always around 180°C/356°F, and there is only one strain that can make me cough at that temps (very high terpene-level). Besides that one strain, it doesn't even scratch in my throat. If i raise temp, it begins to tickle in my throat, leading to coughing very soon, this is when my bronchia are telling me to stop that.

Same for your nose and tounge, btw. They can identify so many possibly dangerous things, just by smelling or tasting them. e.g. burned potatoes, bitter vegetables, bad softeners in cheap plastics and so on.
They can't identify everything dangerous, but are an easy guideline to follow if you are not sure

 

[GoldenBud]

Your bronchia are very sensible sensors for unhealthy aspirations. If they make you cough, you are probably in an unhealthy temp-range.
I am a medical user in germany, vaping every day, always around 180°C/356°F, and there is only one strain that can make me cough at that temps (very high terpene-level). Besides that one strain, it doesn't even scratch in my throat. If i raise temp, it begins to tickle in my throat, leading to coughing very soon, this is when my bronchia are telling me to stop that.

yea, and mucus sux because of high temps. i try to vape less than i think i need.

 

[maremaresing]

@Marlox your post seems to conflate vapor temps with vaping temps, which is device dependent and weakens your argument. I'm curious what you typically vape with?

Agreed that super hot temp gases probably aren't the best to inhale. How people smoke from bowls is beyond me. Vapor is nice that even at high temp vaping, the vapor doesn't take much to cool.

 

[Siebter]

Your bronchia are very sensible sensors for unhealthy aspirations. If they make you cough, you are probably in an unhealthy temp-range.

I very much disagree here. Coughing is a very normal regulation procedure of our respiratory system and happens all the time, it's definitely on the lower end of irritations we can experience and actually a sign that the whole system is working fine. Coughing fits, especially when they become painful, are a very different story of course, but your average cough is certainly not a warning sign per se. Some strains heavily tickle my throat even at lower temps – I consider such sensations being an indicator to adapt my inhaling and temp stepping techniques in order not to overload my lungs, but not as a sign for being in unhealthy temp ranges.

If you can feel hot air going down your lungs, your temp is way too high^^

Very true, but honestly: I never ever had that sensation, it's always the actual content of the vapor making me cough, not the temp. I can have a couple of coughs at lower temps and later in a session, when the terps have worn off, easily inhale at higher temps (below combustion of course) to finally kill a load.