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Happycamper

Sweet Dreams Babycakes
Various people have not bothered to respond before, I'm not the first.

Another British scientist - Chris Folland of the Met Offices Hadley Centre - wrote the same day that using Briffas data might be awkward, because it suggested the past was too warm. This, he lamented, dilutes the message rather significantly.
Over the next few days, Briffa, Jones, Folland and Mann emailed each other furiously. Mann was fearful that if Briffas trees made the IPCC diagram, the sceptics [would] have a field day casting doubt on our ability to understand the factors that influence these estimates and, thus, can undermine faith [in them] - I dont think that doubt is scientifically justified, and Id hate to be the one to have to give it fodder!
Finally, Briffa changed the way he computed his data and submitted a revised version. This brought his work into line for earlier centuries, and cooled them significantly. But alas, it created another, potentially even more serious, problem.
According to his tree rings, the period since 1960 had not seen a steep rise in temperature, as actual temperature readings showed - but a large and steady decline, so calling into question the accuracy of the earlier data derived from tree rings.
This is the context in which, seven
weeks later, Jones presented his trick - as simple as it was deceptive.
All he had to do was cut off Briffas inconvenient data at the point where the decline started, in 1961, and replace it with actual temperature readings, which showed an increase.
On the hockey stick graph, his line is abruptly terminated - but the end of the line is obscured by the other lines.

@ Reece regarding 'trick'

Not so innocent when you realise that a trick can also mean selectively leaving out data (and hiding it) when it doesnt support the theory you are trying to prove, but including it again when it does.
However if you are willing to watch the Director of the International Artic Research Centre (Until 2007) say in a video clip that there is nothing unusual at the artic I can get you that clip, will take a moment to find.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm9K0HAvbqo
4:38 in this video
 
Happycamper,

Happycamper

Sweet Dreams Babycakes
This is so typical on this thread. I provide a link with no other than the head of the main research centre in the Artic saying there is nothing unusual as per two requests and then silence.

Things only get commented on if people can see a way to pull something i said apart.

It's very selective on what you guys respond to, so I don't expect the link with the head of the main research centre in the Artic saying there is nothing unusual to get discussed.
 
Happycamper,

Happycamper

Sweet Dreams Babycakes
Also Swifthack should really be removed from the title.

It seems it was actually a whistle blower.
 
Happycamper,

reece

Well-Known Member
Happycamper said:
This is so typical on this thread. I provide a link with no other than the head of the main research centre in the Artic saying there is nothing unusual as per two requests and then silence.

Things only get commented on if people can see a way to pull something i said apart.

It's very selective on what you guys respond to, so I don't expect the link with the head of the main research centre in the Artic saying there is nothing unusual to get discussed.
You do realize people have lives, right? Do you really think everyone is waiting for your posts? Sometimes I don't check this thread for days. And I don't always have time to look at the videos. I can only ignore the kids so much ;). But I will get to it eventually. Sorry, but I can't do things according to your time table. Your post was at 4:11 am my time. Your next post is about two hours later.

And it's not about playing gotcha. You made a claim and when asked for corroboration you post a film from the Climate Conference thereby changing the topic. How is asking you to stay on topic, "pulling what you said apart?"

So, I watched the relevant portion of the video. It is as you say. What does the current director believe regarding climate change? I'm sorry but once again I have to defer to the majority of scientists on this. Could they be mistaken? Of course. Could they all be in on some conspiracy? Not probable.

And I know what trick means. I'm the one who let you guys know there is more than one meaning. Taking it out of context you can make it mean whatever you want.
 
reece,

Rick

Zapman
We have a local weather guy who always must let us know that there is no global warming and that man has little or no effect on the earths climate. When we follow a bit further, he always will quote a bible verse about how god does it all and man is supposed to be dominant and finally control the planet in "the right way".

I think much of the disagreement is fueled by politics and religion. If "one side" comes up with a theory and a plan, that just CANNOT be right, period, because the "other side" is ALWAYS wrong. No exceptions. It would be nice if we could go back 30 or 40 years when people with different perspectives on life could respect each other and come to a common solution to common problems. Cannot do that anymore it seems. Too much like socialism I guess.

I for one cannot believe that we have no effect on climate when we consider all the factories, airplanes and cars that are spewing crap in the air all around this planet. Why are the wineries looking for new ground further north? Getting a bit too warm in their old grape stomping ground. Too much sugar in dem grapes. I digress but I really think a large portion of us are blinded by the light. That would be the light disguised as THE religion. Part of that blinding light is also "no new taxes". I once heard a very smart man say that when a society figures out how they can cut taxes(government revenue) by voting, they are doomed. Seems like we are almost there already. Kind of neat being able to have wars to stimulate the economy, all on borrowed money. Then a few years later we deny health care for all because we will not borrow any more money.
And surely wars do not affect the environment in any way, do they?
 
Rick,

Happycamper

Sweet Dreams Babycakes
reece said:
So, I watched the relevant portion of the video. It is as you say. What does the current director believe regarding climate change? I'm sorry but once again I have to defer to the majority of scientists on this. Could they be mistaken? Of course. Could they all be in on some conspiracy? Not probable.
You really have to look at 'alll these scientists', and then you start realising it's not 'all these scientists'. And I'm not trying to be clever when I say that.

Another example of how the IPCC works:

They state with only a tiny rise in temperature Malaria is extremely likely to move northwards.
When actually Mosquitos thrive in very cold temperatures. They are extremely abundant in the Artic. Russia had the biggest outbreak, 600,000 deaths.

They invent the idea Maleria will move Northwards. The IPCC states 'Mosquito species that transmit malaria do not usually survive where the mean winter temperature drops below 16-18 degrees c'.

Look it up, Mosquito's love the cold. It's a lie, and they have knowingly ignored their own scientists regarding this.

And I know what trick means. I'm the one who let you guys know there is more than one meaning. Taking it out of context you can make it mean whatever you want
I was actually refering to the actual email, because it has been confirmed what context trick was used. It was to selectively hide (and manipulate in the first place) data when it didn't support what they were trying to prove.
 
Happycamper,

Happycamper

Sweet Dreams Babycakes
Rick said:
I for one cannot believe that we have no effect on climate when we consider all the factories, airplanes and cars that are spewing crap in the air all around this planet. Why are the wineries looking for new ground further north? Getting a bit too warm in their old grape stomping ground. Too much sugar in dem grapes.
Do you realise co2 is only 0.054something percent of the atmsophere?

Even their own scientists can't explain how it could have such a big effect as it's a trace gas. But they are not bothered because, 'it just does, the debate is over''.

So what is causing the warming then? It really is not co2, and there is so much evidence. Even the ice core samples show how temperature drives the co2 levels with a lag of a few hundred years.


I can't grow grapes here like we could in the well documented Medievil period. London has many, many streets with some interesting names that come from this period. It did happen.
 
Happycamper,

reece

Well-Known Member
Happycamper said:
I was actually refering to the actual email, because it has been confirmed what context trick was used. It was to selectively hide (and manipulate in the first place) data when it didn't support what they were trying to prove.
Is this the "hide the decline" stuff? If so can you show me where it has been confirmed to mean something other than this?

Claims that the e-mails are evidence of fraud or deceit, however, misrepresent what they actually say. A prime example is a 1999 e-mail from Jones, who wrote: "Ive just completed Mikes Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (i.e., from 1981 onwards) and from 1961 for Keiths to hide the decline." Skeptics claim the words "trick" and "decline" show Jones is using sneaky manipulations to mask a decline in global temperatures. But thats not the case. Actual temperatures, as measured by scientific instruments such as thermometers, were rising at the time of the writing of this decade-old e-mail, and (as weve noted) have continued to rise since then. Jones was referring to the decline in temperatures implied by measurements of the width and density of tree rings. In recent decades, these measures indicate a dip, while more accurate instrument-measured temperatures continue to rise.

Scientists at CRU use tree-ring data and other "proxy" measurements to estimate temperatures from times before instrumental temperature data began to be collected. However, since about 1960, tree-ring data have diverged from actual measured temperatures. Far from covering it up, CRU scientists and others have published reports of this divergence many times. The "trick" that Jones was writing about in his 1999 e-mail was simply adding the actual, measured instrumental data into a graph of historic temperatures. Jones says its a trick in the colloquial sense of an adroit feat "a clever thing to do," as he put it not a deception. Whats hidden is the fact that tree-ring data in recent decades doesnt track with thermometer measurements. East Anglia Research Professor Andrew Watson explained in an article in The Times of London:

Watson: Jones is talking about a line on a graph for the cover of a World Meteorological Organisation report, published in 2000, which shows the results of different attempts to reconstruct temperature over the past 1,000 years. The line represents one particular attempt, using tree-ring data for temperature. The method agrees with actual measurements before about 1960, but diverges from them after that for reasons only partly understood, discussed in the literature.
1999 email http://www.eastangliaemails.com/emails.php?eid=154&filename=942777075.txt

Published reports on tree ring divergence:

1998 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1692171/pdf/43XA8LK6PCMVMH9H_353_65.pdf

2007 http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/~liepert/pdf/DArrigo_etal.pdf


So, of a number of indicators the tree ring data (since 1960) does not jibe with the rest. This is the data being hidden, but it isn't a secret. If it means what you say it does, then these perpetrators of this vast conspiracy are also stupid because they have already published papers about "the decline."

The claim is that Jones is hiding the data which indicates a dip in temperatures. Yet, Jones is one of the authors of the 1998 report about the dip, or "decline," that I linked to. So he hid the data a year after telling everyone about it?
 
reece,

Happycamper

Sweet Dreams Babycakes
Reece, did you read this article from before?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...em.html?ITO=1708&referrer=yahoo#ixzz0ZYr4kPIj


They also hid the tree ring data line in the world famous IPCC 'hockey stick' diagram at the point where it diverges from the temp 1961 onwards. The main reason it does this is because they messed about with earlier settings to flattern out the medievil warm period. That is the reason it diverges like that in the first place. (''Finally, Briffa changed the way he computed his data and submitted a revised version. This brought his work into line for earlier centuries, and cooled them significantly. But alas, it created another, potentially even more serious, problem''....the huge divergence from 1961 onwards)


Lets remeber, this is not just any old diagram we are talking about.....

It was the chart displayed on the first page of the Summary for Policymakers of the 2001 IPCC report - the famous hockey stick graph that has been endlessly reproduced in everything from newspapers to primary-school textbooks ever since, showing centuries of level or declining temperatures until a dizzying, almost vertical rise in the late 20th Century.



These pictures show how they did it:





Do you think the diagram came with a note that said 'by the way, regarding tree ring data: we have flatterned out the earlier warming and then decided to cut out the line altogether from 1961 onwards as it no longer follows the other temps?' Most people who saw that diagram would not have realised.
 
Happycamper,

reece

Well-Known Member
Happycamper said:
Did you read the article? The Russians admit no such thing.

The article also backs up the assertion that trick, or "adjustment," is not a secret. It states that many scientists do this. It is accepted practice.

From your link:

The problem is that, just like tree rings or ice cores, readings from thermometers or electronic thermistors are open to interpretation.

The sites of weather stations that were once open countryside become built up areas, so trapping heat, and the type of equipment used changes over time.

The result is what climate scientists call inhomogeneities - anomalies between readings that need to be adjusted.
This is more proof that the "trick" to "adjust" temperatures is no secret.

But the sentence that followed what I quoted above is also key to this discusssion.

But can we trust the way such adjustments are made?
This is a good question. Mistakes can be made. Adjusting one period may indeed cause problems with another period thereby necessitating another adjustment. It doesn't mean mistakes were made but it is certainly possible.

But the article you provided does not prove deceptive tactics. It does not prove "trick" means what you say. It actually proves the opposite. It clearly states that there are known anomalies, which scientists have named, that need to be adjusted. No proof of deception. No proof that "hiding the decline" is anything other than what the scientists say it is.

The tree ring data since 1960 was an anomaly that had to be adjusted. Other instruments' readings were consistent. It's like looking at five timepieces, all but one has the same time. It is possible the four are wrong but unlikely.
 
reece,

reece

Well-Known Member
It is also unlikely the four timepieces are conspiring to give the world the wrong time. (sorry for the double post. I received an error message when trying to edit.)
 
reece,

Happycamper

Sweet Dreams Babycakes
I think we will have to agree to disagree on that one Reece.

Looking to April next year anyway when the full report will be done, we will see then I guess.
 
Happycamper,

stickstones

Vapor concierge
One can liken the climate change science to that of astrophysics. The earth's atmosphere is so complicated that we may never fully figure it out, like space.

I recently read that Einstein's theory of relativity included what I will call a 'fudge factor' to account for what we didn't understand at the time. We have since discovered some of the fudge and adjusted the theory. I think the climate science is a lot like that.

The main difference is that no one is trying to create more government or ram through legislation based on the theory of relativity. Yet we want to do all this stuff with relation to climate change while we still have fudge factors to figure out.
 
stickstones,

reece

Well-Known Member
With the newly discovered fudge and subsequent adjustment, how far off was Einstein?

Isn't it apples and oranges? Why is it that no one is changing public policy based on the Theory of Relativity? It seems you are saying it is because there are still "fudge factors to figure out."

Bad analogy.

It's like parking your car under a tree limb that is partially broken. It's gonna fall. But when? Could be years. Could be while you're in your friend's house getting high. Or maybe it won't fall in your lifetime. There are some factors to consider but all you don't know them all. And, until you know all of the factors it makes no sense to change your behavior regarding parking under the tree. Right?
 
reece,

Happycamper

Sweet Dreams Babycakes
The world getting a tiny bit warmer is not a bad thing, hardly a tree limb about to fall on something.
 
Happycamper,

Happycamper

Sweet Dreams Babycakes
The spread of Maleria is nothing to do with temperature changes or global warming i'm afraid.

It was an idea invented by the IPCC. Many scientific papers said this would not be the case. The IPCC can't even get their facts right regarding the temperatures mosquitos can survive at.

Rayski, you never bothered repsonding to the link I provided where the Head of the Main Artic Research Centre said there was nothing unusual happening there.

Then you respond to the Maleria thing, dragging up some news article, that does not actually prove that an outbreak of maleria is due to warmer climates. It is all based on here say.

Sometimes these things just happen and you must get out of the habbit of blaming every little last thing on global warming.

EDIT: I know there are a lot of posts following by me, and i think all are relevant. However, if only one post gets read, please read #323.
 
Happycamper,

Happycamper

Sweet Dreams Babycakes
This is from the article''The average temperature in the Central Highlands was 17C in 1989, with malaria completely absent from the region as the parasite which causes it can only mature above 18C

If that is true why did Archangel and Russia in the Artic circle have the biggest ever maleria outbreak?

The northwest Russian seaport of Archangel averages 1C

I don't trust that news article. (And I note the same article has done it's rounds already in the 'world media').

The actual truth is that Mosquito's thirve in very cold areas and have caused record outbreaks in such areas. I'm sorry, but i can't change that fact.
 
Happycamper,

Happycamper

Sweet Dreams Babycakes
The anopheles mosquito, which carries the malaria parasite, likes warm and wet climate but can stand a wide range of temperatures. Oliver Cromwell died from malaria in a chilly September in the marshlands of East Anglia, England, and less than 80 years ago there was a massive malaria epidemic in Archangel, located within the Russian Arctic Circle. Other malaria epidemics occurred in Alaska and Wisconsin hardly tropical regions.

A key condition for a malaria outbreak is a sufficient pool of parasite-infected humans and animals that allows the malaria parasite to perpetuate its lifecycle. Taking steps to break the lifecycle and treat infections has succeeded in eradicated malaria from the industrialized world; the mosquitoes are still around, but any outbreak can be swiftly controlled with modern sprays and drugs.

Insecticides (mostly the now-reviled DDT) and land drainage were the main tools used in a massive post-World War II campaign that drove malaria from Europe and the southern United States. Malaria persists in the tropics due to poverty, not climate. Sadly, many countries of sub-Saharan Africa are too poor to afford any health budget. What they do have which may be as little as a dollar a person a day comes almost entirely from overseas aid. Despite its proven effectiveness, DDT has been banned in the west on environmental grounds, and all insecticides are frowned upon because of unwarranted concerns that pesticides harm human health, and limited real worries about their impacts on the environment. As such, its difficult to use them in tropical regions.

Therefore, the main thrust of the WHOs Roll Back Malaria campaign is the use of bed nets, which have a far lower success rate than DDT usage. Only countries rich enough to support their own insecticidal spraying such as India, South Africa, Ecuador and parts of Zambia are managing to control malaria and other mosquito-borne diseases. They stand in stark contrast with those countries that are limited to using bed nets.

And its not just the poor that are affected by the reemergence of mosquito-borne diseases. The incidence of malaria among US Marines recently returning from Liberia, despite their being protected by prophylactic drugs (which can only be tolerated for limited periods), and being provided with bed nets, was over 25 per cent an appallingly high rate of attrition for an elite force.
 
Happycamper,

Happycamper

Sweet Dreams Babycakes
Blaming global climate change for health problems, particularly in the developing world, is a convenient smokescreen for the miserable results of the WHO strategy. Ever since Mexico reduced its use of insecticides at the WHOs behest cases of ages-old endemic mosquito-borne diseases have been reappearing in the United States. A recent study by the Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta found a pocket of endemic malaria in Palm Beach, Florida. Palm Beach hasnt suddenly become the Brazilian jungle; the malaria danger is not a question of climate, but of green anti-insecticide policies.

How many Americans have to die of West Nile Fever and other mosquito-borne diseases before pressure is applied to US agencies and the WHO to change its policies? Climate change may yet prove a danger but policies prompted by green zealots are already deadly.
 
Happycamper,

Happycamper

Sweet Dreams Babycakes
Where DDT is used, malaria deaths plummet. Where it is not used, they skyrocket. For example,
in South Africa, the most developed nation on the continent, the incidence of malaria had been
kept very low (below 10,000 cases annually) by the careful use of DDT. But in 1996
environmentalist pressure convinced program directors to cease using DDT. One of the worst
epidemics in the countrys history ensued, with almost 62,000 cases in 2000.
Shortly after this peak, South Africa reintroduced DDT. In one year, malaria cases
plummeted by 80 percent; in two years they were almost back to the 10,000 cases per annum
level. Next door, in Mozambique, which doesnt use DDT, malaria rates remain stratospheric. Similar experiences have been recorded in Zambia, other African countries, Sri Lanka,
Bangladesh and elsewhere

The carnage caused by the environmentalists anti-DDT policies is not a matter of conjecture. The consequences of DDT useand non-useare well documented.

There seems to be a saying which is gathering momentum:

Green Power = Black Death.


South Africa slashed its malaria rates by 80 percent in just 18 months by spraying the walls and eaves of traditional mud and thatch huts twice a year with small amounts of DDT. Ecuador cut its malaria incidence by 60 percent by using DDT; Madagascar by 90 percent after just two spraying cycles with DDT.



In stark contrast, Bolivias infection rate increased 80 percent since 1993, when it bowed to international pressure and banned the pesticides use in favor of bed nets and other alternatives, notes Dr. Silvia Pasquier of Bolivias St. Thomas Aquinas College. Zanzibar, Sri Lanka and other countries have had similar experiences.



The resurgence of malaria should come as no surprise.

Don't pee on my leg and try to tell me it's raining.
 
Happycamper,

Happycamper

Sweet Dreams Babycakes
Sorry for long cut and post, but 'this type' of story is not new either. They are ignoring their own scientific papers...and knowingly are putting out incorrect information to the general public.

They have created this idea that Malaria is going to spread (it is true by the way that they are ignoring what is in their own scientific reports) and use it as leverage for the cause. Because they want to be able to turn around and say global warming is causing human suffering already.

They have had Malaria outbreaks in the same high areas they are now reporting many times before. This time however they have no DDT. They thoughtfully leave that bit out dont they...... :disgust:


Poor little Kenya. Thats the message the media have been sending as the United Nations and European nations hold out this African country as the poster child of Americas environmental sins. In the weeks leading up todays presentation of oral arguments in Massachusetts v. EPA the Supreme Court case in which northeastern states are suing the Bush administration to regulate carbon dioxide as a pollutant under the Clean Air Act global-warming alarmists and the media have been pointing to malaria epidemics in the cooler regions of Kenya as proof of the harmful effects of human-induced climate change.




At the United Nations global-warming summit earlier this month in Kenyas capital city of Nairobi, the Associated Press breathlessly filed a dispatch citing Kenya as the prime example of how a warmer world already seems to be producing a sicker world. The article proclaimed that because global warming was disrupting normal climate zones in Kenya, malaria epidemics have occurred in highland areas where cooler weather historically has kept down populations of the disease-bearing mosquitoes.

The AP article followed the predictable pattern of blaming America for not ratifying the Kyoto Protocol, describing how the mostly Europeans signatories were discussing how to draw the United States into a plan for mandatory emission caps.

Many friend-of-the-court briefs point to recent cases of malaria appearing in the worlds cooler regions to try to persuade the Supreme Court that carbon dioxide is already affecting public health and thus should be regulated. With examples such as Kenya, they are likely trying to persuade swing justices, such as Anthony Kennedy, who increasingly weigh international considerations in their judgments about laws.

Al Gores book and DVD, An Inconvenient Truth, also showcases Kenya. Recent malaria outbreaks in the city of Nairobi, Gore proclaims, show that now, with global warming, the mosquitoes are climbing to higher altitudes. At the Nairobi summit, U.N. head Kofi Annan also turned up the heat by proclaiming that climate change is a threat to health, since a warmer world is one in which infectious diseases such as malaria will spread further and faster. Annan then pointed his finger at what he called the few diehard skeptics that try to sow doubt, concluding that they should be seen for what they are: out of step, out of arguments, and out of time.

But when it comes to global warming and malaria, many of the diehard skeptics who are out of step with Annan and the media are prominent scientists who have produced studies published by the U.N.s own World Health Organization. Research papers from the World Health Organization and the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention show not only that global warming is not to blame for malaria in Nairobi and the highlands, but that flawed environmental policies are the real culprit. We indeed should cry for Kenya, but our tears need to be directed at the right target. In Kenya and elsewhere, it is modern environmentalism that is producing a sicker world. And it is now primarily the U.N. and Europe that are blocking Kenya from using the best tool to fight her malarial epidemics. That tool is the environmentally incorrect insecticide DDT.

If the AP and other news services had bothered to talk to critics of global-warming alarmism or had even done a simple Google search with words such as Kenya, malaria, and history, they would have discovered a remarkable fact: Epidemics of malaria in Nairobi and in the highlands are nothing new under Kenyas sun. They have occurred many times before in this century. In those regions of Kenya, as elsewhere, malaria was greatly reduced by the use of DDT to combat the mosquitoes spreading the disease. And there as elsewhere, malaria came back with a vengeance after DDT use was halted due in large part to the scare-mongering of Rachel Carson and other enviros.

If Annan, Gore or the AP had bothered to look at a comprehensive 1999 WHO report published in conjunction with the U.N. and World Banks Roll Back Malaria partnership, they would have come across this startling conclusion about malaria in the Kenyan highlands: malaria among highland populations is better described as a re-emerging [underlining in original] problem rather than a new, unprecedented phenomena. This paper, written by scientists at the Kenya Medical Research Institute, documents that malaria [e]pidemics in highland Kenya, varying in magnitude, location, and effect, were to recur throughout the 1940s. As for Nairobi, that city experienced malaria outbreaks in the 1920s, 30s, and 40s, according to the WHO report, which is entitled The epidemiology, politics, and control of malaria epidemics in Kenya: 1900-1998.

What brought an end to malaria in these regions for decades until it recently resurfaced? In substantial part, the spraying of DDT. Following concerted attempts to interrupt transmission during the 1950s and 1960, malaria risks declined significantly, says the WHO study. And DDT was a large component of these concerted attempts.

According to the WHO paper, authorities in Kenya began spraying DDT in the 1940s, with an immediate 98 percent reduction in some regions. The report credited this spraying in substantial part for malaria not reoccurring in Nairobi after a flood in 1961.

The WHO report also casts a skeptical eye on climate playing any significant role in Kenya malaria resurgence. Measuring temperature and rainfall in Kenyas Kericho district in the highlands, the study states that there is no obvious effect of warming in this area since 1967. The U.S. CDC reported similar findings in 2005. The CDC study concluded: Doubts exist as to the plausibility of climate change as proximate cause of epidemic malaria because global warming cannot explain the World War II epidemics. Dramatic increases in malaria in the 1990s are not mirrored by prospectively collected climate data. And malaria researchers have also noted that the disease was endemic in many of other regions of the world, including the American South, until DDT eradicated malaria in those places after World War II.

But the malaria increases do seem to be mirrored in the reduction of DDT use. After the unfounded hysterics of Silent Spring author Rachel Carson and other eco-activists, DDT began to be used in Kenya less and less. Supply was restricted by U.S. and other nations bans, and in 1990 Kenya itself outlawed the insecticides use. Now there is extensive debate in Kenya, as elsewhere, about bringing back DDT. Two of the things that may be holding Kenya back from doing this, according to the online magazine Science in Africa, are the United Nations and the European Union. Although the WHO has commendably now called for DDTs use in anti-malaria efforts, the U.N. Treaty on Persistent Organic Pollutants phases out DDT. It does have an exception for health reasons, but imposes expensive paperwork requirements on countries that use the substance. The European Union is also shedding crocodile tears for Kenya. Europe is tightening its restrictions on insecticide residues on East African products, according to the magazine, and this is discouraging DDTs use, even though it would not be used in agriculture.

Imposing strict Kyoto-like reductions on carbon dioxide may worsen Kenyas public-health systems, as well as those of other countries including our own, by making electricity use more expensive in setting such as hospitals. My colleague Marlo Lewis delves into more of these details in his report, A Skeptics Guide to An Incovenient Truth.

Critics of global-warming alarmism are often slammed as deniers. But to save Kenya and other poor nations from the ravages of malaria, we need to stand up to the activists and bureaucracies who should be called the DDT deniers.
 
Happycamper,

stickstones

Vapor concierge
reece said:
With the newly discovered fudge and subsequent adjustment, how far off was Einstein?

Isn't it apples and oranges? Why is it that no one is changing public policy based on the Theory of Relativity? It seems you are saying it is because there are still "fudge factors to figure out."

Bad analogy.

It's like parking your car under a tree limb that is partially broken. It's gonna fall. But when? Could be years. Could be while you're in your friend's house getting high. Or maybe it won't fall in your lifetime. There are some factors to consider but all you don't know them all. And, until you know all of the factors it makes no sense to change your behavior regarding parking under the tree. Right?
My point is that we still don't know what the fuck we are talking about when it comes to global warming and its causes. Therefore, we shouldn't panic to change policies without thinking them all the way through. When global warming proponents can sit down and calmly and rationally talk through what the problem is, what has caused it and what we should do about it, then they will be worth listening to. At this point in that cycle, they seem to be skipping the thinking things through part and wanting to rush into change. In this political climate, any time any politician sends up an alarm with a solution that involves limiting resources to its people, taxing its people to pay for it, etc...tread cautiously.

And speaking of bad analagies, all analgies are bad when either taken out of context or when the main point of the speaker is not understood, as appears to be the case with your understanding of my relativity analogy. Let me modify your broken limb analogy to appropriately represent what I was saying, even though it still has flaws.

What I say warming alarmists are doing is taking note of the broken limb and blaming its existence on man's warming of the environment. (Mosquito situation is a perfect example of this.) Then they go and try to pass legislation to keep us from ever breaking limbs off trees again due to warming. Warming proponents will dance around singing the praises of the legislation that will now save so many limbs from breaking without ever seeing the wealth that is transferred from the subjects to the lawmakers with the same policy. But guess what? Some tree limbs are still going to break because it has nothing to do with warming. Politicians do not care about the environment or you. They don't care if the science that backs their claims has some flaws in it. They only care if it will forward their agenda (read $$$) and be used to get something done fast.
 
stickstones,

Happycamper

Sweet Dreams Babycakes
I hear you Stickstones.

I find it unbearable how this situation has been politically hijacked.

They make it so difficult to see what is real and what isn't.
 
Happycamper,
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