HA doesn't get hot enough? I need an alternative.

[inspiron]

Hi guys,
This is my first post

I'm a medical Marijuana user and I've recently bought the herbalaire. I bought it after reading lots of positive reviews and because it's supposed to be one of the more efficient vaporizers out there.
Well I've been using it for a few days and although it gives me a good feeling I feel that it gives me less pain relief than I'm used to with smoking joints.
I vaporize at the max temp of 200C and also tried using a lower temp of 175C for the first bag and 200C for the 2ND. I've collected some of the used buds (they are darkish brown in color) and made a joint mixed with some tobacco and I've definitely gotten a pain relief effect (though it tasted really bad). I had to smoke a larger amount than I usually have to (I'd say about 3-4 times more) but there are definitely some active ingredients left in the bud after vaporizing.
I've also took 2 fairly equal pieces, put one in the HA and inhaled all of it and still wasn't pain relieved so I took a few puffs from a joint and I was relieved. After a couple of hours I took the 2ND equal bud and rolled it in a joint and I only had to smoke half of it in order to be relieved.
So does the herbalaire doesn't get hot enough in order to vaporize all of the active ingredients or should I expect the same results with all vaporizers?
Are there active ingredients that will only be released in combustion?
I usually role 3 joints out of a mixture of 1 cigarette and about the same amount of weed (a 50-50 combination) I'm not sure how much the weed weighs, maybe 1g?! Each dose I need is about one third of a joint and I smoke about 3-4 joints a day with usually about 1-2 hours between them. Is there a vap out there that will deliver the same amount of active ingredients? Will I be able to take small hits like with smoking a joint or is it big hits only? Will the SSV be suitable or is it big hits only?
Also I rather not use a bag vap, tried it with the HA and it's too much hassle.

I had a chat with a nice fellow in the chat room and he suggested using a vap like the PD/MZ and adding a coozy in order to up the temps. Is it a good choice and will the temps get high enough?

Thanks for your help!

Edit: first post and I've posted on the wrong forum, sorry and thanks for moving it.

 

[Lo]

I'm sorry to hear your having trouble and I don't have an HA so I can't help you there. I do have to say I don't think the PD/MZ styles (and do I love them) would be suitable for you either. There are actives that are released at higher temperatures many of which are needed by medicinal users. I think you do need a variable temp vape.

Beezleb is a resident expert as he helps medical patients get the vape/relief they need. I am sure he would have some good advice for you. If you see his posts he also has links to videos about vaporizers.

Don't give up just yet as I'm sure some folks will be along soon with more info. I hope you'll find what you need! Oh and welcome to FC

 

[inspiron]

Thanks for the warm welcome and your input. I'm not giving up, I do want to buy another vaporizer only this time I've got to do it right.

 

[Frickr]

i think its hard for heavy smokers to switch to vapor. i found that there is a certain period that it takes to get "use" to the vapors. vapor is also slower acting then smoking. just stick to vaping for 2 weeks strictly, and then form a conclusion if this is right for you or not. the ha should be a good unit, i havent heard a negitive thing about it. i say 2 weeks of strictly vaping to get the technique down just right, as it does take a little bit to get the most out of your vapors.

for me, it took me a little bit to start enjoying the effects of vaping. yes it got me stoned but it wasnt the same stone. after a while of vaping, i find that i get the same high either way. just smoking tastes nastier now. i think it comes down to the sensitivity of the receptors in your brain. being as theres less cbn and cbd in vapor (which are the 2 major pain relieving cannabinoils) then smoking, there is a certain time it takes to adjust.

yes there will still be some stuff left over after you get done vaping. save your abv and once you get a bunch of it, cook something with it, or make some qwiso hash - my favorite - and enjoy that treat. you can recycle so much when vaping. pretty much get high off the same weed 3 times, got your initial one, save it for a bit later at a higher temp, then once you have enough extract it or cook with it, and you will be able to get high off the weed one more time!

 

[inspiron]

Well I'm not a heavy smoker, I've only started smoking with MJ and I've been doing it for a few months. I don't like smoking BUT if it's the best way to relieve my pain then I'll stick to it.
I don't know about taking the time to get used to vaping with the HA, I did feel the different high and it was nice but what interests me more is pain relief. When I first smoked MJ it immediately relieved my pain so I don't see why over time with vaping it'll start to do it also.
Plus I've read on this form that there are quite a few cannabinoids that release at higher temps then the HA's max 200C.

 

[Howie Feltersnatch]

Hi Inspiron,

May I ask what the nature of your pain is?
Sometimes a multi-point attack is best with topical and systemic angles to deal with different aspects of the pain.

I suffer from extreme joint pain (mostly hands/fingers) from Rheumatoid Arthritis and find I get a number of bennies from MJ. However, I also take ibuprofen like M&Ms and use topical ointments and heat/cold and it makes it all somewhat bearable.

 

[inspiron]

Hi Howie,
It's Neuropathic pain. I've tried a lot of different pain killers before MJ but nothing else worked. I don't need to find new combinations, I've found what works for me and that's smoking MJ. I'm just trying to find a better way to consume it as I don't like the taste and smell (I don't have a physical problem smoking it).

 

[Pseudonymous]

If you don't like bags, the HerbalAire is pretty near useless. It has an awful direct draw. However, you could always go to a pet store and get a new pump. If you don't have to wait, you'd probably like it more.

I like my SSV. I can get hits as big as those from bongs or I could just not inhale for as long as get lesser hits. There is never a limit on how little you can take, only the maximum limits you.

 

[inspiron]

If I would have gotten all I need from the MJ while using the bags on the HA then I would have probably stick to it but as I'm probably looking into a new vaporizer, after using the bags, I prefer not to.
It's not a speed thing just a personal preference I guess.

Is there a problem loading the SSV with small amounts or can I load it with a relatively big amount and vape every couple of hours when I need to? Won't it waste the weed?

 

[Howie Feltersnatch]

Neuro?
Bummer, got some of that myself.

Maybe you should look at the MyrtleZap or Purple Days.

I have been a combuster for almost 40 years and have a lot of hopes pinned to the MZ getting me out of that habit. I read a lot of opinions and info here about a lot of vapes and decided it had the most bang for the buck and performance characteristics I am looking for . Plus it is also an aroma diffuser and can stay on 24X7 with some essential oils for fragrance.

I am currently using e-cigs (KR808) to ditch the tobacco and am anxiously waiting for my MZ (shipped yesterday!) to allow me to get all the burning out of my house.

Except maybe the occasional dinner of course .

 

[Samsquanch]

I have to say , to get what you want off of vapor , your going to have to go to a unit with variable temp control and start vaping between 220 and 230 . I use a whip based unit , with a mini whip , and use very small portions . The only problem with these temps is you have to pay close attention not to flash (ignite) your mj , but , as a sufferer of chronic back pain this seen to be the ticket . Honestly a variable temp is the way to go , Every strain seems to have its own preferential temp for optimum results when in the normal vaping range , so there is no one perfect temp , but to release what your looking for you need to jack the temp

 

[chucku]

Also consider the Vapor Genie. It requires a butane lighter and with a little practice you can fully extract your meds (heat everything as high as needed) right now anywhere you desire.

 

[inspiron]

Thanks for the replies

Samsquanch,
Which Vap do you have?

chuku,
I did a search and found that the Vapor Genie has a temp range of 107-190 C (225-375 F) which is less than my HA.

 

[Beezleb]

Hello Inspiron,

I am sorry that the HA is not helping you. Generally the HA is viewed as a good vaporizer that does typically meet the needs of medical patients so before I write this one off I would like to ask a few questions to make sure we are offering optimum advice.

While it is likely you would respond to higher temps I believe the HA does hit those temps. My concern about just saying, "hey go get another vaporizer" is that I am not sure another vaporizer will get you the effect you desire without first learning a bit more. While some other vaporizer go higher in temperature I believe the HA can hit all areas from light vapor to higher temp vapors. The point I am getting as if you are not finding vapor effective for you, and if you are doing it correctly. Then I am on the side of thinking then perhaps vaping is not for your condition. This is not unseen or unheard of but vaping does not affect us all the same. If you was saying, it helps at such and such temperature range but its not satisfying then we could assist better but as I understand it, vapor is not helping you and if this is correct and your already using the higher temps than changing the vaporizer should not make a difference in that respect. Some questions first though.

Are you using the same herb that you smoked and found relief from? My only concern is that possibly you are using a different type of herb that is of different strength and/or ran into a herb that simply does not vape well.

Do you exhale visible vapor clouds? What is the color of the ABV?

Question: Do you use the same amount of herb as smoking, more or less. My only concern here would be if you simply were not loading enough to begin with the belief a little bit will be effective.

Question: Do you use the whip or bag function? I believe I read that you dislike the bags. This is the only part where the HA shines. In whip mode it is reported to be pretty weak compared to dedicated whip vaporizers. Though it should be just as effective but just not as thick vapor clouds as one may prefer.

If you are getting good effects but its just not your thing with the bags than we can better assist as already stated, look into the direct draw whip vaporizers: SSV, DBV, Vapor Bros, Vapor Warez are all good options. I own a DBV, use herb for pain and I want for no other but you would find people who say the same for all the vapes listed.

If you currently have a glass bong or the like, look into the wand vapes like the Vrip and Herborizer.

I believe someone already stated this, but I would not recommend single temperature vapes such as the Myrtlezap, Purple Days, and/or the Woody as they are unlikely to hit the temp range you are looking for.

Hope that helps. Lots of good info already posted in thread so im largely a cheer leader for the good advice already given. Welcome to FC.com.

 

[inspiron]

Hi Beezleb,
My answers are in your quote in bold.

Are you using the same herb that you smoked and found relief from? My only concern is that possibly you are using a different type of herb that is of different strength and/or ran into a herb that simply does not vape well.

I'm using the same herb and as I've said I took 2 equal amounts, put one in the HA and the other I rolled into a joint. I vaped until there was nothing left and although I was very high (a lot more than I am while smoking the usual third of a joint) I wasn't pain relieved. After a couple of hours I smoked the joint and only needed half of it in order to relieve the pain. I wasn't as high but I was relieved.

Do you exhale visible vapor clouds? What is the color of the ABV?

I exhale visible vapor. It's not clouds as you see in some videos but from what I've read to get those clouds you need to use more herb in the HA than I am using (and it's already a lot more than I smoke). Some people grind the herb although HA recommends on using small pea sized pieces. I also added a 2ND screen and tried it with little pieces but it didn't change anything (and I got some pieces in the bag).

The ABV is darkish brown. It looks and smells well cocked. I've tried smoking it and I got pain relieved but it tasted horrible (and anyway if I'm smoking I might as well smoke the herb).

Question: Do you use the same amount of herb as smoking, more or less. My only concern here would be if you simply were not loading enough to begin with the belief a little bit will be effective.

As I said, I've used twice the amount I need while smoking and didn't get pain relieved.

Question: Do you use the whip or bag function? I believe I read that you dislike the bags. This is the only part where the HA shines. In whip mode it is reported to be pretty weak compared to dedicated whip vaporizers. Though it should be just as effective but just not as thick vapor clouds as one may prefer.

I've used both the bag and whip and got the same results. I dislike the bags just because it wasn't so convenient for me.

If you are getting good effects but its just not your thing with the bags than we can better assist as already stated, look into the direct draw whip vaporizers: SSV, DBV, Vapor Bros, Vapor Warez are all good options. I own a DBV, use herb for pain and I want for no other but you would find people who say the same for all the vapes listed.

As stated I'm not getting a good effect. I'll try a direct whip vaporizer tomorrow when I go to the place I get my weed from. They have a box vaporizer tough I'm not sure if it gets hot enough.

If you currently have a glass bong or the like, look into the wand vapes like the Vrip and Herborizer.

I don't own a bong and never tried it. I really rather inhale small doses like I do while smoking a joint. Controlling the dosage is very important to me as I don't like getting baked and too much can make me very weak.

I believe someone already stated this, but I would not recommend single temperature vapes such as the Myrtlezap, Purple Days, and/or the Woody as they are unlikely to hit the temp range you are looking for.

Hope that helps. Lots of good info already posted in thread so im largely a cheer leader for the good advice already given. Welcome to FC.com.

I really appreciate your help. Thanks!

 

[Beezleb]

Thats great you can check out a direct draw vape where you get your meds. Hopefully at a higher temperature you will get what your looking for.

Its possible that when smoked the joint that it was able to work off the THC already in your system and it acted like a bump so to speak. With this is in mind, I would caution on being confident the joint was truly more effective for you just gave that appearance. Hard to tell.

Everything else seems good that you are doing. Let us know how the other vape works for you when you try it out.

 

[luchiano]

inspiron, what you should do is eat your herb to get the pain relieving affect and doing it this way it will last longer than vaping/smoking. You can vaporize the rest to get the high you want. In fact doing both will enhance each other.

What you want to do is eat your herb with some nuts,seeds, or avocado because these things contain fats and other nutrients that enhance the herbs efficiency in the body. You don't have to cook the herbs just make a paste from the nuts, seeds, avocado and mix the herb or just eat it how you want and swallow the herb. Your stomach will mix the food with the herb anyway. Make sure the herb is ground as fine as possible for the best effects.

The reason why eating will relieve the pain more effectively is because your immune system is involved with pain a lot of the times and when you eat herb with the foods I mentioned, it goes to your lymphatic system which is the main part of your immune system and helps calm down the inflammation that is involved with pain.

You don't need a lot to feel the effect but I don't know what works for you. Just start with .25 grams and work you way up to whatever you like.

Hope you this helps you.

 

[inspiron]

Beezleb,
In my first post I've also mentioned that after the vaping didn't work, I took a few puffs from a different joint I had and it relived the pain. While smoking I can feel the effect of each puff.
Also the fact that when I smoked the ABV it gave me pain relief indicates that there are pain relieving ingredients that weren't vaporized.
I read that there are some that have a boiling point of up to 230C so I don't see how I can get those with the HA.

luchiano,
Thanks for the advice. I'll try to ask the people at the clinic about eating it.

 

[Beezleb]

I dont really care to have a back and forth, I was just giving a point of view. I could offer that pain relieving aspects you feeling could be an aspect from your body reacting to the smoke and it go probably go on to eternity.

At the end of the day, I was trying to assist you but you seem to know it all already so good luck with you and I sincerely hope you find relief.

 

[luchiano]

I dont really care to have a back and forth, I was just giving a point of view. I could offer that pain relieving aspects you feeling could be an aspect from your body reacting to the smoke and it go probably go on to eternity.

At the end of the day, I was trying to assist you but you seem to know it all already so good luck with you and I sincerely hope you find relief.

Yeah I think smoking gives some pain relief because the immune system is trying to get rid of the toxins and when you smoke some of the cannabinoids help with keeping some of the cytokines that produce pain low while the immune system is doing it's thing and this is what helps relieve pain but it isn't long lasting as eating plus overtime it may cause other problems from the smoke.

I may be wrong though but you can't go wrong with eating and vaping together for health reasons and feeling the best effects.

 

[Samsquanch]

I run one of these things

http://www.top-vapor.com/p12.asp

I got away from the hands free whip and went to a mini whip for--- better hit/taste , smaller portion/more efficient vape . there is something to smaller portions if your doing it right. But what got me to buy this china crap knock off was the dual temp display because I knew I wanted to play with temps and I want more control than setting a knob to a so called temp that who know if it is accurate.

I was also gonna say if your looking for pain relief , stay away from sativa's and go with indics's

 

[luchiano]

Beezleb,
In my first post I've also mentioned that after the vaping didn't work, I took a few puffs from a different joint I had and it relived the pain. While smoking I can feel the effect of each puff.
Also the fact that when I smoked the ABV it gave me pain relief indicates that there are pain relieving ingredients that weren't vaporized.
I read that there are some that have a boiling point of up to 230C so I don't see how I can get those with the HA.

luchiano,
Thanks for the advice. I'll try to ask the people at the clinic about eating it.

No problem, but make sure you eat the herb with your own whole foods because most of the time when herb is sold as edibles it's in the form of brownies, drinks, or cookies and these things are good for temporary relief but you want to try to heal your problem also, not just have pain relief and eating whole foods will help your body heal overtime. I can't say that for the other edibles because they lack so many nutrients needed for healing as well as aiding the brain in getting high continuously and overtime you will need to ingest more for the same affect..

 

[itriplots]

hey inspiron, dont give up on your herbalaire yet, I use mine for pain relief and it works great. Ive found that I cant just go for the higher temp stuff, that it actually works much better to start lower and work your way up in small increments. Some how it either vapes the higher temps better this way or the combined effects work better for me.

So here is my advice on how to get the absolute most out of the herbalaire. First, you should switch to direct draw mode and skip the bags. Then load your desired amount in the crucible (try about half full), unground, and pack it in as far as it will reasonably go. Next you should start with the dial on about 150, maybe a little bit hotter (like 160). Then you should hit it and hold it in for about a minute, it also seems to help to inhale in little burts while your holding in the hit to keep some fresh air in your lungs. Hit it a few times (5 or 6 for half the crucible full) and then turn up the temp about 10 degrees then take a few more hits. Keep doing this until you reach the max temp. A little warning though, it will start to taste bad towards the end of the range but its still vapor, and just from my personal experience it seems to make a difference.

Also, you should be able to get a couple bags out of a small amount in the bowl if you really want to use the bag system. Even if you think its done it will vape for a bit longer.

 

[inspiron]

Beezleb,
I seem to have offended you in some way and I apologize for that, it wasn't my intention. I've read my post a few times but didn't understand why. I also don't know what gave you the impression I think I know it all (I actually know very little on this subject). All I know is what I feel and that's most of the things I wrote along with a few other things I've read on this forum.
Anyway as I said before I really appreciate your help and value your input.

luchiano,
I can only get the herb in it's natural form. They don't make anything else. Thanks for the info about eating it, I'll ask them about it and begin to read about it
As for choosing indica or sativa, unfortunately I don't have the option. In my country the whole medical MJ thing isn't fully organized and still considered an experimental treatment. In the "clinic" they told me that in the near future I'll start getting different herbs in order to see what works best but at the moment I don't have a choice.

Samsquanch,
That vaporizer actually looks great, the only thing worries me is that you said it's a "china crap knock off"

I'll try the direct whip vaporizer today and see how it effects me.

Hey itriplots.
I've tried starting at a lower temp and increasing it with the direct draw and all sorts of breathing techniques but it didn't help much. I'll try it again according to your instructions, maybe I'm missing something.

Thanks guys!

EDIT: I wan't clear that with the HA I did get some pain relief but not the full pain relief I get while smoking, which is really what I need.

 

[max]

So does the herbalaire doesn't get hot enough in order to vaporize all of the active ingredients or should I expect the same results with all vaporizers?

I haven't read all the posts here yet, so forgive me if I'm repeating something someone has already said. The herbalAire gets plenty hot. I've used it for years. You're experiencing the difference between vapor and smoke and it'll be there to some extent with any vape. You should understand that a good deal of what you're missing (for the couchlock effect, and what most people attribute to being cannabis compounds) with vapor are smoke by-products that are toxic compounds. This study will point out some of those, and the fact that they increase with temperature. If that't the effect you're intent on getting, and the high temp range doesn't do it for you, you'll have to resort to smoking. There ARE a couple of analgesic cannabis compounds that you pretty much have to combust to get, as well. And it's quite possible those are the ones you're missing. I would try vaping at near combustion levels if you're really interested in avoiding smoke. If that doesn't do it, then I'd say that vapor's not for you.
http://www.canorml.org/healthfacts/vaporizerstudy1.html

Maybe you should look at the MyrtleZap or Purple Days.

That would be counter productive, as would any fixed temp vape, since they're designed to operate in the lower temp range, where you get few toxins.